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Alien826

No religious beliefs
Yes, I believe that God is capable of that, but then belief would not be a choice.
God wants belief to be a choice and that is one reason why humans have free will to choose.

I suppose that could be true, but why would he want that? It seems that he prefers credulity to intelligent inquiry. To me it sounds more like a tortured explanation as to why god isn't a lot more obvious than one would expect.

Aside from that, God has no need for anyone's belief since God is fully self-sufficient, so there would be no reason for God to try to convince people that He exists.

In that case one has to ask why he wanted to create us in the first place.

I have to add though that trying to understand the thoughts and wishes of a being so totally different from us is probably a fools errand. It would be like an ant trying to understand why you do things. It would probably try to interpret everything you do in terms of building ant hills. And the ant is at least part of the same ecosystem as you.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How would you establish that God is possible?
Not my problem.

Unless we can establish that God is impossible, how can we say that God is not possible?
Who says we can't? Internally inconsistent gods are, by definition, impossible.

As for the ones that merely violate what we know of how the universe works, we have to satisfy ourselves by saying that they're impossible with practical certainty rather than perfect certainty.

That's true, so maybe that is not the best analogy.

There was a time in history, before 1930 when nobody knew that Pluto existed, but later Pluto was discovered and we knew it existed. However, Pluto existed before 1930, when it was discovered.

I am sure there are many other things in the universe that exist right now but are yet to be discovered.

God is yet to be discovered by atheists. :)
Also not a great analogy, since Pluto is supported by empirical evidence.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
If you want to claim that there is a God to give guidance the burden of proof is upon you. I might as well say that some theists defend their evil behavior by claiming that God said it is the right thing to do.

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't any empirical and verifiable evidence that the biblical God exists or that any gods exist (see my post here). I think that it's a matter of personal faith, and claiming that someone is a "messenger of God" doesn't make it any more true than David Karesh convincing his cult followers that he was Jesus. It seems that some people will believe just about anything.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Then why not via a Messenger who is given the task to distribute unconditionally the Message in Writing to all humanity?

Then those that choose to pursue that evidence, gain by that choice.

Why not indeed. There's nothing illogical about that. All you have to do is show that it is true.

The Supernatural is a choice, Jesus offered it is the process of being born again. Born from the material into our Supernatural abilities, or our Supernatural Reality.

Regards Tony

If only it was an unconditional choice. Maybe Baha'i don't believe this, but Christianity comes with a particularly nasty penalty for non-believers. A true choice would be "believe and be rewarded or I'll just leave you alone".
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If you want to claim that there is a God to give guidance the burden of proof is upon you. I might as well say that some theists defend their evil behavior by claiming that God said it is the right thing to do.
You may say what you like, and I won't ask you for proof..
Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence .. I do not have to prove anything.
You have the same access to documents as I do, I assume.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Most western universities have their roots in Christian belief.
Not surprising.

Most western universities were founded in an era where Christian religious institutions grabbed society's surplus wealth for themselves and wriggled their way into governments. Nobody else had the wealth or power to found a university at the time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We need evidence that the text has content that in no way an ordinary person could know at the time. There is none for Baha'u'llah and his texts.
If the text had content that in no way an ordinary person could know at the time would you believe it was written by a Messenger of God?

Aside from what He wrote about God and spiritual matters, Baha’u’llah wrote about many practical matters. We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Believers are easily convinced, critical thinkers are not. We thinkers are the threshold claimants need to satisfy.
Some believers are easily convinced, other believers aren't. I know Baha'is who investigated the Baha'i Faith for many years before they became Baha'is. We are all different in how we come to believe and why.
Based on what facts? All we see is people very willing to believe in a religion as being convinced, not critical thinkers. Explain this capacity as a fact.
It is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, pp. 105-106

It is not a fact since I cannot be proven. Religion is not factual, it is believed on faith, or not believed.
However, if you use logic and reason, you can see that it makes sense that we all have the capacity to believe in God, because if God had not given us all the capacity, how could God expect us to believe in Him?
There is no clear evidence of this. This seems to be something a believer tells themselves to avoid having doubts.
You mean there is no proof. Of course there is no proof, religious beliefs are not subject to proof. How could it ever be proven that there is a reward in heaven?

Religious beliefs do not prevent believers from having doubts.
But you are a person who needs a religion to believe in, not a critical thinker.
I do not NEED a religion to believe in, I believe in a religion, and I can think just as critically as any atheist, and maybe even more critically than some.

I was thinking critically when I picked up the book Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and read it and realized it was the Words from God.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I don't see where that puts you at any advantage. If atheists are claiming that God does not exist then they have to defend that position. Can you prove that God does not exist?

There are some atheists that would say that there is no god with no shadow of a doubt, but I think most say that the probability of such a thing is extremely low.

Also, we don't make the first claim. Theists claim that god exists, we disagree. It's really up to theists to present the evidence. To make this clear, can you imagine a situation where a person had never heard anything about god/s. Would he spontaneously describe something he had never heard of then start on about it not existing?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This is a fallacy, argument by popularity. It is irrlevant how many believe in some concept, that doesn't mean it is true..
No, you are twisting his words.
He said: Billions do accept a Messenger, a Revelation and the Written Word as evidence"

He did not mention whether it was true or not .. just that they considered it as evidence. The evidence then needs to be examined and validated. In reality, it is not a black and white issue, as you try to make out.

There are no gods known to exist..
...and what is the point of continually repeating "no empirical evidence of gods" .. do you really think it enlightens anybody?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
And yet the most observable candidates for this come from mainstream Darwinian followers. I think you need to look in the mirror a little more often.

You'll need to enlighten me on whom you're attempting to belittle because I don't know what a mainstream Darwinian follower is.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
..so you are agreeing that there IS no possible valid evidence of the existence of God, unless a person chooses to believe?

Pharaoh insisted that his subjects worshiped him. He oppressed the Israelites, and God sent Moses to him. He refused to believe, and God sent a series of disease and pestilence .. he then claimed that he then believed .. and then, after the pestilence was removed, he went back to claiming he was God.

He was finally drowned along with his army .. and then he again said he believed when he saw the sea coming on him.
..which was of no avail. His belief could not be trusted .. he'd already showed his "true colours".

Belief is not about empirical evidence .. God knows what is in the depths of our minds .. we make our choice .. following our desires .. or God's guidance.

Perhaps you can explain, on any other subject but god, why would someone just decide to believe something for which he has no evidence? So why do it for god?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I doubt whether @TransmutingSoul believes in Messengers of God, just because they say so..
I most certainly don't.
Do you think there are any messengers, and if so, do you think Baha'u'llah is the latest, and have converted to Baha'i?

I had a couple of 1 1/2 hour Divinity lessons a week for 5 years, plus numerous other studies at external venues.
If you are suggesting that all I learned is that Jesus claimed to be a messenger of God in that time, you can't be serious ! :rolleyes:
They will teach how to be religious, not to be a critical thinker, yes?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I suppose that could be true, but why would he want that? It seems that he prefers credulity to intelligent inquiry. To me it sounds more like a tortured explanation as to why god isn't a lot more obvious than one would expect.
It is because God has created us with intelligence and a conscience.
It is psychological. It is the way our minds work.
If we seek truth in earnest, then "God" comes towards us.
i.e. our spiritual eyes are opened

Intelligent inquiry without sincerity does not lead to the same result.
It is an intentional part of our souls.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
As far as I'm concerned, there isn't any empirical and verifiable evidence that the biblical God exists or that any gods exist (see my post here). I think that it's a matter of personal faith, and claiming that someone is a "messenger of God" doesn't make it any more true than David Karesh convincing his cult followers that he was Jesus. It seems that some people will believe just about anything.
And I agree. The problem is that the claim of "evidence" is always coming from theists. When asked to support their claims they never appear to be able to do so.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
This OP is not about the truth of the Evidence.

It is about what constitutes Evidence that is given to support a claim.

What was offered is that billions of people except what constitutes Evidence. It is not about all those billions agreeing the evidence supports the claims.

Regards Tony

So, if I understand you, you are saying anything that is offered as evidence is evidence, even if it is false.

Given that, I agree that what you present is evidence, by your definition.

Now, how did we manage to go on for 13 or more pages?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Perhaps you can explain, on any other subject but god, why would someone just decide to believe something for which he has no evidence? So why do it for god?
You mean, why do people believe in things that they can't see?
I think I would still believe in a Creator, but without the existence of the Bible and Qur'an, I would not have much knowledge.
..but that is all hypothetical, because they DO exist, and I don't just find them credible, but compelling !
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
They will teach how to be religious, not to be a critical thinker, yes?
No .. I had a grammar school education in the UK, and my Divinity Master had a degree from Cambridge University.
He did not preach. He taught the subject in a factual manner.

In fact, I recall him mentioning "Allah" and grinning broadly. :D
I also recall a pupil whose name was Simon Bishop, and he caused the Master a lot of grief. He had some Arab friends, and on occasions he gave him the chalk and told him to take the class.
That shut him up. ;)
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
That’s the journey. Until we find a clue we are left empty handed. Doesn’t mean there is no God just that some have discovered Him while others still haven’t.

Except believing in God isn't like being in a painting and believing that there was a painter. From inside a painting, it would be apparent that it's at least possible that a painter painted them.

God isn't a painter, though. The very nature of God, such as existing before time and space, creating time, having a mind without a physical brain, etc. makes God completely impossible. We know that there isn't a God in reality.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
..so you are agreeing that there IS no possible valid evidence of the existence of God, unless a person chooses to believe?
No, I don't think I said that.

Pharaoh insisted that his subjects worshiped him. He oppressed the Israelites, and God sent Moses to him. He refused to believe, and God sent a series of disease and pestilence .. he then claimed that he then believed .. and then, after the pestilence was removed, he went back to claiming he was God.

He was finally drowned along with his army .. and then he again said he believed when he saw the sea coming on him.
..which was of no avail. His belief could not be trusted .. he'd already showed his "true colours".

Belief is not about empirical evidence .. God knows what is in the depths of our minds .. we make our choice .. following our desires .. or God's guidance.
Which pharaoh do you think drowned with his army?

If you aren't pulling this out of your butt (or your religion's propaganda), you'll be able to say.
 
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