Evidence

[Alien826]

It is incredible to me how many people actually believe that God said that, if they don't believe it why are they giving the post a Like or a Winner?

It is incredible that people seem to believe that the OT is the actual Word of God, incredible.
I am glad I know better than to believe that. Logically, it cannot be the Word of God since it was written by ordinary men, it was not even written by any Prophets! The claim is that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but why should anyone believe that claim? Anyone can say they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

From The Baháʼí Faith - Home ....

Throughout history, God has sent to humanity a series of divine Educators—known as Manifestations of God—whose teachings have provided the basis for the advancement of civilization. These Manifestations have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muḥammad. Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, explained that the religions of the world come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God.

"The law was given through Moses” (John 1:17).

So the "law" as set out in the OT was not the word of God? Despite having been given through a Messenger?

 

[F1fan]

God did not need to create anything, God desired to create everything, including humans.

This is not a factual statement, so irrelevant.

God created us out of His love for us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

This is not a valid, objective source for critical thinkers. You are biased and assume this text is true. So we dismiss it as a non-credible source. What else do you have to support what you believe and post that is verifiable and factual?

No, I do not believe the Bible is true where it says that God 'talked' to humans. Only humans talk to humans.

But other theists disagree with you, so why should we reject their beliefs but accept yours? Could you be mistaken?

I believe that God can put thoughts in our head and inspire us through the Holy Spirit, but that is not talking.

Describe these thoughts.

It is our soul that hears God, not our physical ears.

Hearing implies communication, and this would be direct communication from God. So it may not be in words, but it is direct communication, yes?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God did not need to create anything, God desired to create everything, including humans.

God created us out of His love for us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

And James Watt created the steam engine out of his love for steam engines -- though he'd never even heard of such a thing before he invented it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you see that you are missing the completely and blaringly obvious here? There are (at least) 3 possible reasons for that, the first 2 you might concur with, but you ignore the third:

1. He can't,
2. He doesn't want to,
3. There is no God.

Evangelicalhumanist said: ↑
First, why is God not available for a demonstration? How do you know that? God is, so I'm told, omnipotent.

Those are the 3 possible reasons, and I am not ignoring the third. I just happen to believe it is a combination of 1 and 2.

God is omnipotent does not mean God can do anything. It means that God is all-powerful. God can only do what is within His nature to do. For example, God cannot become flesh because God is spirit. If God became flesh God would be a man.

If God is spirit and not matter, how can He 'show up' on earth and be demonstrated?
Even if that was possible, and God can do it, we all know He is not doing it so if He can and doesn't, the logical conclusion is that He doesn't want to.

The other logical possibility is that there is no God and that is why God is not 'showing up' on earth.

 

[PearlSeeker]

No, I do not believe the Bible is true where it says that God 'talked' to humans. Only humans talk to humans.
I believe that God can put thoughts in our head and inspire us through the Holy Spirit, but that is not talking.
It is our soul that hears God, not our physical ears.

But this could be just my own good thoughts. Why should I believe it's from God?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are accusing your version of God as not very caable of communicating with people. Hell, I can do that. Bit your allmighty God can't?

I did not say that. I said nobody could understand God if He spoke to them since God communicates to the mind through the Holy Spirit, and only Messengers of God can understand God since they have a divine mind.

How hard is it foir a God to manifest into a form that can speak Danish, or Finnish, or Swedish, or German, or Spanish, etc? Why si your version of God so incapable of this, yet you think it created the whole universe?

God did manifest into a form that could speak Persian and Arabic, and His Writings were translated into over 800 languages.

And why can't this God of yours tell thre messengers something that is definitive about the future? Baha'u'llah got some things wrong, so that's a bad sign.

Baha'u'llah got nothing wrong since He was infallible. Baha'u'llah did predict the future and much of what He predicted has come to pass. The remainder of His predictions will come to pass in due time.

Why are you covering for God? If God is what you claim it is then why are there problems that it must have caused, according to you believers?

God may or may not have caused x, y, or z, but just because you consider those to be problems, that does not mean they are problems. They are only problems according to your limited understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's something you have said that I need to acknowledge. I'll put it a slightly different way. How do you investigate a being that is (supposedly) so much more powerful than you? Looking at science, we (humans) always have more power than the subject of the investigation (we can put it on microscope slide or whatever), or at the least, it will sit still to be investigated. Not so God. If God doesn't want to be found he won't be.

What immediately comes to mind is that we can only investigate what is less powerful than us, so humans can investigate all the orders of creation beneath them - minerals, plants, and animals - but humans cannot investigate or understand God, who is so far above us, and that is why there needs to be an intermediary between God and man. The Messenger of God is that intermediary since He can understand both God and man, since He has a twofold nature, human and divine.

It is only logical that if God is all-powerful God is the one who controls whether or not He can be found, so if God doesn't want to be found He won't be found.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps more and more people know how important the test drive is.

Only if they are going to be doing a lot of driving.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Agreed, but the example was more along the lines of "I want to know if you exist. Do you?" It's the basis of that person's future belief. What does a refusal to answer tell us? I would suggest 1) God doesn't exist or 2) God doesn't want to be known. Either one would likely cause the seeker to give up. Is that what God wants?

Almighty God always gets "what He wants".

If you decide to disbelieve in God, then He know why.
If you decide to believe, then He knows why.

All you are doing is making it all about external evidence, as to whether He exists or not.

If you think that it is reasonable to believe that this universe has no author, and everything is one gigantic coincidence, then you do not have to look any further, do you.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's just an inference from other things that are said about God. I could dig out some Bible texts I suppose, but I don't have time now.

Even if those verses refer to belief rather than other things, it doesn't mean that God doesn't want to have everyone believe (which would be a prerequisite to the other things he supposedly wants from us, like obedience). I'll say that again, it's important. God wants us to obey him. Nobody obeys something they don't know exists. Therefore God wants us to believe he exists.

I agree. God does want us to know that He exists, but God also wants us to know about His attributes, His teachings and laws, and His message for the age we live in. What good does it do to 'only know' that God exists? Big deal.

So the fist step is knowing that God exists, and then we need to know about God, including the ordinances that God wants us to obey.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But this could be just my own good thoughts. Why should I believe it's from God?

Personally, I believe that I am much better off on my own, without praying to or relying on any deities to help, protect, or save me. That was something I had to learn the hard way throughout my life. I'm not saying it's best for you or anyone else, but it works for me. I don't see why I should put my faith in a supposedly loving and merciful God who abandoned me in a hellhole of abuse and neglect.

I learned how to stand on my own without the help of God or any other deities. I learned to survive on my own, how to protect myself from harm, and I saved myself from the abuse and neglect I suffered while growing up. I don't know you, so I don't know if that would be the best option for you or not, but renunciating my Christian faith and learning to stand on my own (without praying to or relying on deities) were certainly the best decisions that I've ever made for myself. It wasn't easy for me at first, but it was worth the struggle.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't know how much more sincere I could have been in praying and pleading with God to protect me from being beaten to an inch of my life by my abusive mother, from being bullied and punched by my older brother, or from being bullied and harassed at school. I even cried out to God about being scared for my life, but God never bothered to answer my prayers and save me from the hellhole that I lived in during my childhood and teenage years. I endured abuse, neglect, bullying, and harassment until the age of 18, when I confronted my older brother and fought back to defend myself. I told him that I would call the police and press charges against him if he ever touched me again. It was that violent confrontation that also caught the attention of my abusive mother, and she never laid a hand on me again either. I eventually quit praying after realizing that praying to God was essentially like praying to a brick wall and expecting the wall to answer my prayers. However, as an adult and devout Christian, I tried desperately to cope with the PTSD I had developed as a result of the severe trauma I experienced while growing up. But, once again, God seemed uninterested in helping me, and I gradually began to lose hope and my faith. It took me a few years to free myself from the Christian indoctrination I had received throughout my life, but I eventually did. My life has significantly improved since I abandoned my Christian faith, and I am experiencing emotional healing and better mental health. I now practice Wicca and spiritualism, and that's been a positive experience for me too.

I so get it. My early life was very similar, except that I abandoned any idea of prayer really early, and never went near any sort of religious notion again.

 

[Trailblazer]

This assumes several things that I find dubious.

1. God considers belief to be more important than other things that he wants from us.

2. God doesn't already know the outcome of his "test". If that's not true then why test?

3. God gives no allowance for differing circumstances, like upbringing and culture.

1. God considers belief to be more important than other things that he wants from us.

-- As you pointed out above, first we have to believe in God, before we will do the things God wants of us.
That does not mean that belief is more important than the other things God wants of us.

2. God doesn't already know the outcome of his "test". If that's not true then why test?

-- Of course God knows the outcome of the test, God is all-knowing. The test is not for God to find things out, it is for human benefit. God wants us to work to find out about Him, just like a student works in school.

3. God gives no allowance for differing circumstances, like upbringing and culture

-- I believe that God does give allowances, since not all humans have the same capacities or circumstances.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

 

[QuestioningMind]

I already know that your position, but God can never be verified to exist because God does not *choose* to make Himself verifiable.

No, those were not claims. #1 was based upon logic and reason and #2 is a verifiable fact.

Nope... #1 is a claim based on flawed logic which employs the fallacy of circular reasoning. #2 is NOT based on verifiable fact, since you've yet to provide ANY verifiable evidence that this proposed god being sent any messengers whatsoever.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does this god want to be known? If so, for its benefit.

God does not want to be known for His own benefit. God has no needs so God needs no benefits. God only wants to be known so humans can have the benefits of knowing God.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself.The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 260

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

God does not want to be known for His own benefit. God has no needs so God needs no benefits. God only wants to be known so humans can have the benefits of knowing God.

What is the benefit of knowing God? I'm a Syntheist and have my own answer to this question, but I want to hear a Baha'i take on it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what would a weak and effectual god look like?

Nonexistent

And people aware of more effective ways to reach people know that it is not.

If people aware of more effective ways for God to reach people how come I have not heard of any?
Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I learned how to stand on my own without the help of God or any other deities. I learned to survive on my own, how to protect myself from harm, and I saved myself from the abuse and neglect I suffered while growing up..

In my experience, if something bad happens to us, it is often beyond our control.
However, that does not mean that everything is beyond our control. The path we choose to take in life is in our hands.

I do not see any advantage in ignoring God's guidance, just because others are able to oppress us .. I don't see how that can help me at all .. it just means that I can do whatever I like, whether it is good for me in the long run or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

It all boils down to this, doesn't it?

The obvious response is "How can we possibly know that?"

Off the top of my head I will say that we cannot know that, we can only believe it. We cannot know it as a fact since it can never be proven, but just because we cannot know it as a fact, that doesn't mean it is not true. It could be true or false, and it is our job to determine if it is true, if we want to know.

I would welcome a thread (maybe several threads) setting out why Baha'i believers consider that to be true. Yes it's a huge job, but you (plural) can't seriously expect us to embark on such an enterprise without at least some guidance. To narrow it down, you can leave out anything that your Messenger said about God, and concentrate on why we should accept that he had a "divine mind". Once that is established, the rest follows, I would think.

(On second thoughts I don't want to limit this if you think anything is pertinent.)

This is a general request, not just to @Trailblazer, who probably deserves a rest!

I have put this request in my back pocket to come back to later. What I mean is that I have copied it into a Word document and saved it in my folder called Threads to post.

Yes, I need a rest but it does not look like I will be getting one any time soon!

 

[Trailblazer]

Back in my brief excursion into religious belief, I knew I had to make certain assumptions, even against the evidence. The most important one was "God is good, in terms that I can understand". The alternative to that was too horrible to contemplate.

That is where I am at, "God is good, in terms that I can understand" but I still question if God is all-loving.
The way I see it, God has to be good, but God does not have to be all-loving. That is just what certain religions teach.