Evidence

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I agree. The Babi's and Baha'is are very dependent on Shi'a Islam. But, since they are supposed to be the fulfillment of all the other major religions too, how dependent are they on any of the others? Especially Hinduism and Buddhism.

Yes, and have you heard of syncretism?

 

[CG Didymus]

Not supporting one's beliefs rationally is a good indication that one's beliefs are not rational.

Some Christians like to use the "empty" tomb as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. They believe they have proof and evidence, but then the Baha'is say the resurrection never happened. So, when it comes to Christian mythology, Baha'is and Atheists agree. Both say that Christian evidence is faulty.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the Bible implies that God favors Jews..

That is not accurate, imo.
Almighty God favoured the children of Israel, as they were being oppressed by Pharaoh.
Almighty God is on the side of the oppressed.

He always has been, and always will be.
If any "nation" turns away from God, and is no longer righteous, then God can guide another nation who WILL be righteous.

Almighty God does not favour ANYBODY just because they are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim .. or "insert your religion here".

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, and have you heard of syncretism?

Now I have and that sounds like what is happening.

 

[F1fan]

Bahá’u’lláh refers to Noah in the Kitab-i-Iqan describing Him as a Prophet who attempted to bring security to His people through His teachings and being persecuted as a result writing:

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him!"[3]​

This is a disqualifying comment by Baha'u'llah if he really wrote this. To repeat the Genesis myth of Noah, and him living for 950 years, is clear evidence that he is not communicating with a God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Having a strong belief does not mean that a person has seriously considered his faith..

If you mean that a person is not a top scholar just because he has a strong belief, then that is pretty obvious.

However, a Muslim who has a strong belief, will attend the mosque regularly, and he will listen to sermons regularly.

You are trying to change the argument. The vast majority of religious people merely believe. If you ask them if they every seriously considered if others might be right you will hear "No' after "No"..

No .. YOU are the one that is trying to change the subject.
You want to talk about all the different religions, and how they all claim they are the only ones that are right etc.
That is not the subject that we were discussing.
I said that the Qur'an was my evidence.
We are discussing why you think that Muslims cannot show their religion to be coherent.

Even @Trailblazer admitted, though she does not realize it, that her beliefs are not rational. You dodged the same question. That indicates that you may know that your beliefs are irrational.

I haven't dodged anything.
You are the one claiming that Muhammad is delusional, and so the Qur'an is not reliable evidence.
..and yet when I ask you what SPECIFICALLY is delusional, you are very vague, as if it is just an opinion that you cannot substantiate.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a disqualifying comment by Baha'u'llah if he really wrote this. To repeat the Genesis myth of Noah, and him living for 950 years, is clear evidence that he is not communicating with a God.

They try and explain it away. One guess was that it was "lunar" years. Another guess was that it was the "dispensation" of Noah's teachings. But I don't think there is an official explanation of what he was talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you mean that a person is not a top scholar just because he has a strong belief, then that is pretty obvious.

However, a Muslim who has a strong belief, will attend the mosque regularly, and he will listen to sermons regularly.


No .. YOU are the one that is trying to change the subject.
You want to talk about all the different religions, and how they all claim they are the only ones that are right etc.
That is not the subject that we were discussing.
I said that the Qur'an was my evidence.
We are discussing why you think that Muslims cannot show their religion to be coherent.

I was not implying that at all. And you may have me confused with someone else , we were only discussing Muslims for right now. You need to support your claims with evidence. It now appears that you may be saying most Muslims are not serious since your claim of them going to the mosque multiple times in a week appears to be faulty.

I haven't dodged anything.
You are the one claiming that Muhammad is delusional, and so the Qur'an is not reliable evidence.
..and yet when I ask you what SPECIFICALLY is delusional, you are very vague, as if it is just an opinion that you cannot substantiate.

No, I said likely to be delusional. Why do you constantly try to change the arguments. And yes, I asked you the same question that I asked her, but I will ask it again:

Is there any possible evidence that could convince you that you are wrong about God?

And I never claimed that the Quan was not a reliable source. Why should I? The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that it is. Until one does the null hypothesis, the basics belief would be that it is not reliable. Sources that have cannot be shown to be reliable are never accepted as reliable by a rational person.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is not accurate, imo.
Almighty God favoured the children of Israel, as they were being oppressed by Pharaoh.
Almighty God is on the side of the oppressed.

He always has been, and always will be.
If any "nation" turns away from God, and is no longer righteous, then God can guide another nation who WILL be righteous.

Almighty God does not favour ANYBODY just because they are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim .. or "insert your religion here".

It is my understanding, which is based on my extensive study of the Bible, that God chose the Jews as his chosen people and specified that Jesus would be descended from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12) and King David (2 Samuel 7). The Bible states that the Jews are God’s chosen people: "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession" (Deuteronomy 7:6). These verses: 1 Kings 3:8, 1 Kings 8:53, Psalm 105:43, Jeremiah 13:11, Isaiah 43:4, Isaiah 65:9, and Romans 11:1-36 also speak of the Jews as God's chosen people.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8: "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

Jeremiah 31:1-4: "1 "At that time," declares the Lord, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people." 2 This is what the Lord says: "The people who survive the sword will find favor in the wilderness. I will come to give rest to Israel. 3 The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love. I have drawn you with unfailing kindness. 4 I will build you up again, and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt. Again you will take up your timbrels and go out to dance with the joyful."

 

[muhammad_isa]

was not implying that at all..

Well, what ARE you implying?

I said "a Muslim who has a strong belief, will attend the mosque regularly, and he will listen to sermons regularly."

I stand by that.

And you may have me confused with someone else , we were only discussing Muslims for right now..

I haven't confused you with anybody else.
Do I have to show you our recent conversation, with post numbers etc. ?

It now appears that you may be saying most Muslims are not serious since your claim of them going to the mosque multiple times in a week appears to be faulty..

Mere playing with words.
What is "a strong belief"?
..and why do they hold it?

No, I said likely to be delusional..

OK .. so maybe not delusional then?

Is there any possible evidence that could convince you that you are wrong about God?

Yes .. if somebody can show me that something I believe is illogical or incoherent, I would re-examine my beliefs.

And I never claimed that the Quan was not a reliable source..

What do you mean, "reliable source" .. I thought that you were claiming that it was not reliable EVIDENCE.

Why should I? The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that it is..

Not at all .. I say that it is reliable evidence.
If you claim that it isn't, then you need to show us why it is not the words of God .. why Muhammad was wrong in claiming that it was .. such as lying or deluded.

Until one does the null hypothesis, the basics belief would be that it is not reliable. Sources that have cannot be shown to be reliable are never accepted as reliable by a rational person.

I agree .. I would not believe anything, just because you said so .. I would have to examine the evidence for myself.

It is not my job to "spoon feed" you .. you are not an infant .. in any case, I can't stop you "spitting it out"

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is my understanding, which is based on my extensive study of the Bible, that God chose the Jews as his chosen people and specified that Jesus would be descended from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12) and King David (2 Samuel 7). The Bible states that the Jews are God’s chosen people: "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession" (Deuteronomy 7:6). These verses: 1 Kings 3:8, 1 Kings 8:53, Psalm 105:43, Jeremiah 13:11, Isaiah 43:4, Isaiah 65:9, and Romans 11:1-36 also speak of the Jews as God's chosen people..

Yes, I'm aware of all that.
I'm also aware that the OT is comprised of ancient texts, and that it is not likely to be completely accurate.

Jesus accused the Sanhedrin of foul play, and they wanted him out the way .. that is quite clear.
There is also the problem of whether it was Isaac or Ishmael that Abraham saw in a vision to be sacrificed..

..but overall it still stands, yes .. in those decades/centuries that the OT deals with, the children of Israel were favoured by God, and had the current revelations revealed to them.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8: "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

Yes, we know .. but why is it that you left out the bit about Ismael and his seed being blessed too?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you mean that a person is not a top scholar just because he has a strong belief, then that is pretty obvious.

However, a Muslim who has a strong belief, will attend the mosque regularly, and he will listen to sermons regularly.


No .. YOU are the one that is trying to change the subject.
You want to talk about all the different religions, and how they all claim they are the only ones that are right etc.
That is not the subject that we were discussing.
I said that the Qur'an was my evidence.
We are discussing why you think that Muslims cannot show their religion to be coherent.


I haven't dodged anything.
You are the one claiming that Muhammad is delusional, and so the Qur'an is not reliable evidence.
..and yet when I ask you what SPECIFICALLY is delusional, you are very vague, as if it is just an opinion that you cannot substantiate.

Now you are clearly talking about a minority of Muslims and previously you tried to claim that most Muslims went to the Mosque quite often.

It appears that you are trying to cloud the issue since you were losing the original debate. Do you want to go back to that?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, I'm aware of all that.
I'm also aware that the OT is comprised of ancient texts, and that it is not likely to be completely accurate.

Jesus accused the Sanhedrin of foul play, and they wanted him out the way .. that is quite clear.
There is also the problem of whether it was Isaac or Ishmael that Abraham saw in a vision to be sacrificed..

..but overall it still stands, yes .. in those decades/centuries that the OT deals with, the children of Israel were favoured by God, and had the current revelations revealed to them.

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective of the Old Testament.

I think it's interesting to learn how a Muslim views the Old Testament and the rest of the Bible.

Yes, we know .. but why is it that you left out the bit about Ismael and his seed being blessed too?

I didn't mention Ismael because the Bible indicates that the Jews are descended from Abraham's son, Isaac.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective of the Old Testament.

I think it's interesting to learn how a Muslim views the Old Testament and the rest of the Bible.

You're welcome .. but I have to say that my view is probably not a typical view .. as I was raised as a Christian, and many Muslims have little knowledge about the Bible.

I didn't mention Ismael because the Bible indicates that the Jews are descended from Abraham's son, Isaac.

OK

..just FYI..

Jewish, Christian and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of the Ishmaelites (Hagarenes or Arabians) and patriarch of Qaydār. According to Muslim tradition, in which he is regarded as an ancestor of Muhammad, Ishmael thereby founded a great nation as promised by God in the Old Testament, and was buried with his mother Hagar (Hājar) next to the Kaaba in Mecca, under the area demarcated by the semi-circular Hijr Ismail wall.
Ishmael - Wikipedia

 

[PruePhillip]

It's funny how you "true believers" in some sort of creationism move fast towards natural explanations when I ask why your God created children with defects and cancers.

I know you want to believe your God controls everything. You must realize how absurd it is to believe that a God created the universe, and then our solar system, and then our earth which evolved life including dinosaurs, and then deliberately sent a meteor to hit earth in just the right spot to kill off most life so that humans could evolve some 65 millions years later. And some of those evolved humans are children with defects and cancer.


Right, a universe that is 13.4 billions years old was created just for we humans who have only been around for about 150,000 years? Does that not sound arrogant for humans to believe? It's all about us.


Why do you think the seasons are perfect? We had a summer that had 100 temps for so many days that there were serious concerns of death for many who didn't have AC. This last month saw a cold snap where temps were close to -10 for quite a few days, and led the many deaths right there. That's disruptive and far from perfect to my mind. It's survivable, not perfect. I would say perfect are highs around 80-85, and low humidity. So I think you have a bad case of "rose colored glasses". And on top of that you have hindsight bias. Look that up if you aren't aware of what it means.

Re kids with cancers and cold snaps - there's a VARIATION to systems, kind of like your bell shaped curve of Normal Distribution.
This is how everything, from quantum to biology to asteroids works.
We aint here for a long time, so be aware of that - a virus or an asteroid might get you. It's how the creation works.

 

[rational experiences]

Some Christians like to use the "empty" tomb as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. They believe they have proof and evidence, but then the Baha'is say the resurrection never happened. So, when it comes to Christian mythology, Baha'is and Atheists agree. Both say that Christian evidence is faulty.

By inference it said only earth mass is removed by mans Phi calculus. Builds an earth machine by phi first. Suns mass was never Phi...above us.

A teaching.

It wasn't agreeable as no human owned the right to take earth mass back to nothing a sink hole or empty tomb. Why it wasn't acceptable.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Can I ask you what made you realize that your faith was blind? Do you mean faith in your religion or faith in God, or both?

As a child I was raised (indoctrinated) in religion. Later I just wanted to know on my own more about what exactly we (Christians) believe and why... I sought truth, rational reasons... At first I lost faith in religion(s). I am agnostic about God (there might be some cosmic mind) but I certainly don't believe in Biblical depictions and myths.

 

[Trailblazer]

As a child I was raised (indoctrinated) in religion. Later I just wanted to know on my own more about what exactly we (Christians) believe and why... I sought truth, rational reasons... At first I lost faith in religion(s). I am agnostic about God (there might be some cosmic mind) but I certainly don't believe in Biblical depictions and myths.

Thanks for explaining that. Your experience is not unlike many people who were raised as Christians. Many lose faith in the Bible, some become atheists, and some become agnostics. I have known some who regained their faith in God after they lost it, but not the God of the Bible.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is oh so easy for a person to claim that they don't know whether there is something greater than ourselves, and that the universe could be some sort of cosmic accident.

I don't see the relevance. I was referring to the question of why there is something rather than nothing, including gods. Of course there is something greater than ourselves. Gravity is. But if accident means unplanned, why not? Even if one believes in gods, were they planned?

it is a way of thinking, that demands scientific proof for spiritual concept. A way of ignoring the spiritual, by claiming that the spiritual is purely derived from the physical, so is of no concern.

I have a spiritual concept, but it has nothing to do with spirits as the religious use the term. I need no proof that I have these experiences, nor for what they represent.

If you want to tell me why you think that the Qur'an is lies, then I'm all ears.

Lies and delusions are your words. Mine is that the Qur'an is the thoughts and words of men, and not correct. Why they claim otherwise doesn't matter to me.

If Muhammad wasn't fraudulent, then you must be saying that he was deluded .. is that right?

How about that he has made unsubstantiated claims? You can choose from among the reasons why that might occur. I don't really care if he was lying, mentally ill, or just guessing. It doesn't even matter that he might have been correct. He didn't support his claims, and therefore I understand them as his opinions, like liking chocolate ice cream more than vanilla.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The right answer is that God exists and Messengers of God who establish religions are the evidence.

That's merely your uncorroborated belief, and has been rebutted, which rebuttal you failed to address. You have been told repeatedly what evidence for a god is, and what you offer isn't that.

There is evidence although there is no proof. I have probably said this at least 100 times.

And you have been told just as many times that what you offer is not evidence in support of your belief and why it falls short. You don't seem interested in addressing any of that. You just keep making the same rebutted claim. It's still wrong for the same reason previously given that still have never refuted.

I cannot show other people why they should believe it

Then they shouldn't believe it if they can't find reasons of their own.

People who say "that's not evidence" have never opened the door to the next room so they will never see the evidence.

I've seen all of the evidence you and others have presented as evidence of a god. True to form, your claim when it is examined and rejected, is that it was never seen. You apparently consider your evidence so powerful and compelling that one only need look at it, and that those who don't believe must not have looked. You use the word arrogance a lot.

Let's just say that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. How would we know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be - what would the evidence look like?

Shouldn't you be able to answer that? Apparently, you think a book millions could have written and a life millions have equaled or surpassed is that.

The fact is that you really have NO IDEA what would be evidence for God, you only know what you do not consider evidence. That is why you cannot provide the definition.

Evidence is not failed evidence just because it failed to convince you.

Then what is failed evidence to you?

I should mention here that the phrase failed evidence has no meaning to me. How can evidence fail? Faile to do what? Evidence is what is evident. People can fail to understand it, but evidence can't fail or do any of a number of other things like drink a beer or sing Karaoke or run for public office. It's a category error.

there is no evidence that would make me change my mind about my belief in God.

Then that belief is not based in evidence as you claim.