Evidence

[John53]

Yet what was used as evidence?

Saw it too long ago to remember but I do know it was the fictional evidence from the brain of the writer(s) trying to create entertainment.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which "frame" of reference are you going to take? A fundy Christian one that believes we are all lost in the sin nature that we inherited from Adam? The same Adam that Baha'is make into a manifestation of God? That Jesus is the only way to pay our sin debt to God? I think if a person reads the NT, they will see plenty of evidence that what fundy Chrisitan say and believe is true.

Yet, lots of people don't believe them. If it has anything to do with looking at it logically and rationally and not believing assumptions that must be taken on faith, then why not do the same and expect the same when looking at the Baha'i Faith?

There are just too many religious beliefs of different people and cultures that most all of us would say, "No, that is not true. That is just them making up myths." And what do Baha'is say about people that believe things they can't prove scientifically? Oh yes, that it's probably superstition. And superstition ain't the way.

I would offer that everyone must look at the evidence for there own selves.

Personally I have found many Gems of wisdom in the given evidence, that have proofs and facts of faith for me.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Got it. "Applicable to all the faiths." Evidence of God, given by God. I'll trot out the usual: The Buddha was not a Prophet/Messenger and he gave no revelation from the upper case abrahamic god. There, saved you 92 pages.
PS Can we have the Buddha back that you stole, please?

All they need is the name. Buddhists are free to keep believing the things they believe. But of course, Baha'is don't believe some of the things that Buddhists believe these days, so they will make up their own beliefs about the Buddha and tell their people that those are the things Buddha really taught. Like one God and no reincarnation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Expanding that to disproving the existence of a god should be obvious. We're now into searching the whole universe.

Actually if you look inside creation we are but one universe. It is already known that God has created more, there is at least another 100,000,000 more, though that number was used to describe the infinite, to a less scientific audience.

God is not contained within any part of creation, God is outside of creation.

Also consider our own capacity of knowledge.

Which compelled me to offer this quote.

"....Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?

Then we must labor to destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity shall come to light.

(The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys)

How small we are, but what marvellous capacities we have been given!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But what if I believe in Vishnu or that Jesus is God. The God I believe in is different from the God you believe in. And since neither of us can prove our version of God is real, then who are the smart ones? Maybe the ones that don't believe either of us? But ask, "What is you proof and evidence that your God exists." And it all comes down to our faith-based beliefs that can't be proven. The problem with the Baha'i Faith, it can't merely be another one of the many religions out there. The Baha'i Faith must be the one and only true religion from the one and only true God. But Baha'is can't prove it.

All they can say is Baha'u'llah said so, and we believe him because of his character, his mission and his revelation. Which isn't much different than what others say about their religion. And they all believe theirs is the right one, and they all contradict each other. Like a Christian can say, "Look... who else walked on water? Who else rose from the dead? Just look at the empty tomb. He's not there. He has risen." Why not believe them? That's what the gospels say happened. But Baha'is make those things symbolic, thus eliminating their truth, and eliminating the contradictions between the Baha'i Faith and the gospels. Oh, and those Christians don't believe in evolution. How do Baha'is explain that? Probably that the creation story in Genesis is symbolic? That's fine. But then what was ever really true about the Bible and the NT?

I would just offer the evidence to you again CG.

It is up to you to search for the truth in the given evidence. I am not here to ensure you do that, I can only distribute the evidence.

This OP is not about the distribution of the evidence by giving proof and facts from it.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I come up with a difficult task of finding reliable evidence, but not an impossible task.

Luckily I have other sources of evidence that can confirm Krishna.

Regards Tony

Good. Can't wait to hear it. But Krishna was only one of the many incarnations. What do we know about the others?

we can find is the fundamental truths they all contain

Yes, there are fundmental truths that most all religions contain. Plus, some of them have their fairytale-like stories about Gods and prophets and things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All they need is the name. Buddhists are free to keep believing the things they believe. But of course, Baha'is don't believe some of the things that Buddhists believe these days, so they will make up their own beliefs about the Buddha and tell their people that those are the things Buddha really taught. Like one God and no reincarnation.

If one makes up something and attributes it to Buddha, it is false evidence.

That is a key to consider when one starts walking the minefield that is now called Buddhism.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good. Can't wait to hear it. But Krishna was only one of the many incarnations. What do we know about the others?

Yes, there are fundmental truths that most all religions contain. Plus, some of them have their fairytale-like stories about Gods and prophets and things.

Maybe you can pursue the evidence further, to find what you are looking for?

This OP is not attempting to pursue facts and proofs from the evidence.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no such evidence because it can never be proven that there is a God, or that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God.
That must be believed on faith and evidence, or not believed at all.

FYI I am personally not able to say this, it is to grey an area for me. To me it pushes the boundary of "God doeth as God Willeth". As such, I am not able to make such absolute statements about proof.

Baha'u'llah has said that with one word all can be made to believe, thus one word can prove God to all humanity. Also Baha'u'llah was able to prove His station to those around him. He did so to one person and they killed themselves.

We are told why this can not be done to its full potential, as creation would be destroyed in the process. (My memory and understanding of what is offered in the wrirings)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Saw it too long ago to remember but I do know it was the fictional evidence from the brain of the writer(s) trying to create entertainment.

There are other real cases as well.

Lawsuits against God - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[John53]

There are other real cases as well.

Lawsuits against God - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

God failed to turn up in all of them... case closed.

 

[Alien826]

But that is what I'm questioning... Have the messages of the different religions been "progressive" or different and contradicting? For example... Did Christianity compliment Judaism and then did Islam compliment Christianity? They each might think they do, but it seems to me more like each believes it is correcting the older religion and clearing up beliefs those older religions had misinterpreted.

Actually, @Trailblazer does answer this somewhere. Apparently the other Messengers did get it right but the messages got corrupted afterwards. Only the writings of Bahaʼu'llah are free from corruption.

As an aside ... Something we non believers tend to overlook is that none of our arguments are new to (educated) believers.They have considered them all and have prepared answers to all of them. I have to smile when yet another atheist presents his well worn argument that he is so sure will convince them.

 

[Alien826]

I own 14 guns. I enjoy hunting and target plinking. I also carry one.
Fact is I like guns.

Bob owns no guns. Thinks no one should own guns. Started a petition to try to ban all guns.
Fact is Bob doesn't like guns.

I'm sorry for anything I said before. I actually agree with everything you say.

 

[Alien826]

Are you arguing in your spare time?

I could be.

 

[F1fan]

Actually if you look inside creation we are but one universe. It is already known that God has created more,

False, this isn't known. There are no Gods known to exist (Tb admits this) and there is no reason to describe the universe as "created" except in a religious context wjhich is not factual or true.

there is at least another 100,000,000 more,

Really, another 100,000,000 universes? Where is the evidence? Oh yes, there is none, so we reject this by default.

though that number was used to describe the infinite, to a less scientific audience.

And this simplicity seems to be way too comlpicated for believers today.

God is not contained within any part of creation, God is outside of creation.

OK, prove it.

Also consider our own capacity of knowledge.

Which compelled me to offer this quote.

"....Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?

Then we must labor to destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity shall come to light.

(The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys)

How small we are, but what marvellous capacities we have been given!

Regards Tony

I submit that critical thinkers are exhibiting a much higher capacity of knowledge, and skill, than believers who resist reason.

 

[Secret Chief]

reincarnation

rebirth

(Sorry, I'm a stickler. )

 

[Alien826]

Actually if you look inside creation we are but one universe. It is already known that God has created more, there is at least another 100,000,000 more, though that number was used to describe the infinite, to a less scientific audience.

God is not contained within any part of creation, God is outside of creation.

Also consider our own capacity of knowledge.

Which compelled me to offer this quote.

"....Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?

Then we must labor to destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity shall come to light.

(The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys)

How small we are, but what marvellous capacities we have been given!

Regards Tony

I'm not sure if you are addressing my point which was about it being impossible to prove the non existence of god/s. If there are multiple universes and God is not in any one of them it would make it even more impossible (can something be more impossible?).

 

[Secret Chief]

That is a key to consider when one starts walking the minefield that is now called Buddhism.

Do you know what you should do if you come across such a minefield? Yes, call it corrupted. Simples.

 

[Balthazzar]

Thank you for the balanced reply.

Yes indeed, I see it relies heavily upon our frames of references and our relative understandings about God and creation.

Jesus offered a key consideration, Jesus the Christ said we must be born again. That could very well be the key frame of reference needed when pursuing evidence of God.

Regards Tony

Yes, maybe - Reincarnation, to be "born again" may well be frame of reference, particularly as it relates to his self proclaimed duty as the son of man. The same is echoed throughout the new testament - I think it's Colossians where the writer speaks about the resurrection of the dead being like seeds. My mistake - John 12 and 1 Corinthians 15 is where the reference is found. With that stated, I typically view Adams and Eve's exodus from the garden to be similar in context. Be fruitful and multiply, but then what of the womb of life that is this earth and atmosphere? That's the key I think-to the born again principle and resurrection per Jesus' self-proclaimed purpose. The former alluded to via Adam and Eve's exodus perhaps the evidence of being born of the flesh and the latter pertains to being born of the spirit.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There is no such evidence because it can never be proven that there is a God, or that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God.
That must be believed on faith and evidence, or not believed at all.

Thank you! Now wasn't that easy? You told the truth -- it has nothing to do with rationality, nothing to do with "truth" (in an evidentiary or epistemological sense), just belief.

And such beliefs can be right or wrong with no way to determine which. Really, that should put an end to the entire debate.