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Evidence?

Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Autodidact said:
Well, it's probably not knowable, but the fact that thought has never been observed outside of a brain, and no consciousness has ever been observed without a brain, is kind of a big hint.
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What would it look like, the consciousness without a brain? Would you recognize it if you saw it?

The thing about emergent properties is... they emerge.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here...
Edgar appeared to have the ability to perceive beyond what his basic senses could provide.
Out of body experience would affirm thought, and perception beyond the confines of the brain.

So far the discussion seems to be...stay in your body..and still 'see' God.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Storm said:
I think there's a good reason for this: when confronted with an ineffable experience, most of us interpret it in terms we're familiar with.
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Yes, I think it's something like that. People have an experience--for a moment let's not worry about the cause or source. They have a real experience, a truly ineffable and usually life-changing spiritual experience. It usually involves a feeling of peace and well-being and a sense of connection, either to the universe or God or both. Then they have to incorporate it into their understanding so far. If they have a religious framework, they experience it in those terms. It doesn't mean it's bogus, but that they can only grasp or even experience it, or understand their experience, in terms of their prior concepts.

Oh, another thing. The experience is accompanied by a sensation of absolute certainty. So whatever they experience, post-filter, they are completely convinced of, and nothing you can say can dissuade them. So a Mormon will say that they know for a fact the holy spirit exists, but they cannot convey the experience to you. A Catholic may say they have experienced the Virgin Mary directly, and so forth.

One possible explanation (not the only one, for sure) is that there is a divine presence, that either only visits a few people or only a few people are able to perceive and only occasionally, and that each person understands that presence in terms they can understand.
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
willamena said:
Is proof necessary, or even desirable? Is it even possible?
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It is both desirable and necessary. I'd prefer to make an informed choice or decision before I get anywhere near "believing".
 
Jackytar

Jackytar

Ex-member
Autodidact said:
Yes, I think it's something like that. People have an experience--for a moment let's not worry about the cause or source. They have a real experience, a truly ineffable and usually life-changing spiritual experience. It usually involves a feeling of peace and well-being and a sense of connection, either to the universe or God or both. Then they have to incorporate it into their understanding so far. If they have a religious framework, they experience it in those terms. It doesn't mean it's bogus, but that they can only grasp or even experience it, or understand their experience, in terms of their prior concepts.

Oh, another thing. The experience is accompanied by a sensation of absolute certainty. So whatever they experience, post-filter, they are completely convinced of, and nothing you can say can dissuade them. So a Mormon will say that they know for a fact the holy spirit exists, but they cannot convey the experience to you. A Catholic may say they have experienced the Virgin Mary directly, and so forth.

One possible explanation (not the only one, for sure) is that there is a divine presence, that either only visits a few people or only a few people are able to perceive and only occasionally, and that each person understands that presence in terms they can understand.
Click to expand...

Good post Autodidact

My father was in the ministry as a young man and said that he experienced divine presence on two occasions. Later in life he concluded that there was nothing supernatural going on. He never lost his faith but as he became more educated - especially in the then-emerging field of psychology - he definitely questioned a lot of stuff and left the ministry shortly after obtaining a degree in theology (a scandalous thing to do back in the 30s). Personally I have had several truly rapturous experiences while on drugs. I hasten to add that this was a long time ago.

Jackytar
 
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Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Autodidact said:
Maybe Michael has experienced what we've been talking about. We could ask him.
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Maybe he has and maybe he hasn't, but I have no patience for anyone who proclaims himself God's messenger.

Enlighten said:
AT LAST A MESSENGER FROM GOD HIMSELF :faint:. Not being funny but you are telling me that you are a messenger of god (not God) and yet you decide the first thing you do is come on this site for a one liner? (make that 3 if you want to get picky). Can you back up this claim and what is your message if you genuinely believe this?
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Please don't encourage his polution of my thread. :)
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Seriously, Storm, if you're interested in empirical data from people who have had spiritual experiences, michael is probably someone you should be very interested in.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Storm said:
I disagree.
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Seriously. In all probability, he had one of these spiritual experiences, which are accompanied by a feeling of certainty. That's why he feels certain of whatever it is--that he talked to the holy spirit or whatever he said. He's right down the middle typical experimental subject of your area of interest, neuro-theology. (OTOH, he seems to be gone anyway.) Having such an experience is not indicative of mental illness. They're not common, but not rare, either. Joseph Smith probably had one (or else was a charlatan) and Harriett Tubman and Joan of Arc and Sung Yung Moon. I think it's interesting.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Autodidact said:
Seriously. In all probability, he had one of these spiritual experiences, which are accompanied by a feeling of certainty.
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No, he didn't. If you read his thread, he saw an apparition. While the premise that this was a real being is not incompatible with my beliefs, chances are it was a hallucination. Either way, he described none of the hallmarks of trance states, and even if it had been one, that doesn't make him God's messenger. I have no desire to help him masturbate his ego.
 
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