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Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Global Flood evidence:

1.Vast herds, comprising perhaps millions of grazing animals, discovered within the muck fields by gold hunters in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (delicate flowers like buttercups, that only grow in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs Ark Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent. (Maybe from all five.) But the waters above the Earth caused temperatures to be very mild, and pleasantly warm.... similar to a greenhouse effect, worldwide. (That’s why Adam & Eve could go naked, and be very comfortable.) Yes, the Bible indicates there were seasons, but apparently mild ones.

All of that drastically changed, with the break in this canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

2.This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/university-of-leicester-physics-students-says-noahs-ark-would-have-floated-with-two-each-of-35000-species-of-animal/news-story/a7e558bc25fecf8e2865867579f05479.

And this one:

Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian

Further information:
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

3.Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy. This is powerful evidence supporting a literal interpretation: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such ideal dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

4.The numerous Flood legends (exceeding 250, one anthropologist says near 1,000), that share many similarities, some strikingly so, that indicates a common source.

5.Furthermore, the Bible clearly states, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. (Due to the underground waters spewing upward, and the land settling downward.) This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Some were even underwater prior to the Flood — see #6. (Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking. What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)

6.[related to #5]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. (Clams in natural death, die w/ their shells open.) All remain exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!!

7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what Psalms 104 reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

8.The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8'. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people, to get his writing from!

Are you of the mindset that, when reading about God causing a global Flood, you don’t think He’d use His power throughout other aspects of the event? Or afterwards? Does Jehovah God have to reveal / explain everything He does?


I’ve presented a lot of evidence. Are you open-minded enough, to consider it now?

EDIT: Well, it’s been over a day since I posted, and it’s obvious some simply aren’t open-minded enough; they are so biased even to the point where they attack the poster....me....rather than debate the evidence.

Sad but expected.

1. The vast herds found in Alaska are related to climate change and has nothing to do with the flood. The flood would cause to rapid decomposing of the animals for that to be an explanation

2, No matter how well the ark was designed it would not house enough of the animals along with the food needed to last 80 days. It also does not explain what happened to the plants that were not on the ark and explain how the animals of different continents could get to the ark. So no matter what physics is applied to the demotions of the ark it still would not have preserved the animal life it clams that we have today.

3. No better than #2. No matter how stable the boat was it still could not have supported two of every animal that is in our world today.

4. Numerous flood legends or myths does not make any of them true. Same as Creation stories. Same as stories about hero's. They do not match unless you can quote one from that is identical. Instead if you accept the other flood myths as truths then the other stories would have to be identical. They aren't.

5. Clearly you are not familiar with plate tectonics. No force of water would mountain ranges to form in 80 days and yes there is evidence of weathering on all mountain ranges. You do not seem to understand changes that occur in geological time frames.

6. Fossil remains in mountains only proves plate tectonics and disproves the food theory.

7. The amount of water to flood the Earth to remove all other life to make the need for the earth could not go anywhere to recede since there would be no place that would not be covered with water. And no it cannot go into the earth since gravity would not allow it to leave just to enter back in.

8. The Chinese character for boat has nothing to do with the ark. It does not describe the ark or make any reference. The number 8 was familiar to the Chinese and there are no Chinese writings that say they descended from Noah and there is nothing in the story about two Chinese people invited for a cruise on the ark.

You must have better evidence that these since none of the 8 arguments support Noah's ark story as being true so give us the better evidence to prove that the myth was true.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
Global Flood evidence:

1.Vast herds, comprising perhaps millions of grazing animals, discovered within the muck fields by gold hunters in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (delicate flowers like buttercups, that only grow in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs Ark Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent. (Maybe from all five.) But the waters above the Earth caused temperatures to be very mild, and pleasantly warm.... similar to a greenhouse effect, worldwide. (That’s why Adam & Eve could go naked, and be very comfortable.) Yes, the Bible indicates there were seasons, but apparently mild ones.

All of that drastically changed, with the break in this canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

2.This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/university-of-leicester-physics-students-says-noahs-ark-would-have-floated-with-two-each-of-35000-species-of-animal/news-story/a7e558bc25fecf8e2865867579f05479.

And this one:

Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian

Further information:
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

3.Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy. This is powerful evidence supporting a literal interpretation: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such ideal dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

4.The numerous Flood legends (exceeding 250, one anthropologist says near 1,000), that share many similarities, some strikingly so, that indicates a common source.

5.Furthermore, the Bible clearly states, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. (Due to the underground waters spewing upward, and the land settling downward.) This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Some were even underwater prior to the Flood — see #6. (Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking. What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)

6.[related to #5]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. (Clams in natural death, die w/ their shells open.) All remain exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!!

7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what Psalms 104 reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

8.The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8'. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people, to get his writing from!

Are you of the mindset that, when reading about God causing a global Flood, you don’t think He’d use His power throughout other aspects of the event? Or afterwards? Does Jehovah God have to reveal / explain everything He does?


I’ve presented a lot of evidence. Are you open-minded enough, to consider it now?

EDIT: Well, it’s been over a day since I posted, and it’s obvious some simply aren’t open-minded enough; they are so biased even to the point where they attack the poster....me....rather than debate the evidence.

Sad but expected.

You are asking if there is evidence that supports the biblical flood? Sure. We had Pangaea at one point right? We have evidence of that and now we have all these separated continents. How did that come to be?

Your problem is trying to use religious stories as scientific explanations. Who wrote the bible? How much of the planet had they explored? These people wrote about stories thousands of years ago. I would not read the bible to figure out how to treat my child's illness or even to teach them science but are you really advocating that people should shun modern education in lieu of ancient stories? You and I both know the bible is an awesome collection of knowledge of horrific stories that should be studied but in no way represent modern discoveries. (Malcolm Gladwell has a fascinating take on David and Goliath! The unheard story of David and Goliath )

Learn what you can from the bible but don't stop learning.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You are asking if there is evidence that supports the biblical flood? Sure. We had Pangaea at one point right? We have evidence of that and now we have all these separated continents. How did that come to be?

Your problem is trying to use religious stories as scientific explanations. Who wrote the bible? How much of the planet had they explored? These people wrote about stories thousands of years ago. I would not read the bible to figure out how to treat my child's illness or even to teach them science but are you really advocating that people should shun modern education in lieu of ancient stories? You and I both know the bible is an awesome collection of knowledge of horrific stories that should be studied but in no way represent modern discoveries. (Malcolm Gladwell has a fascinating take on David and Goliath! The unheard story of David and Goliath )

Learn what you can from the bible but don't stop learning.
I appreciate your take. Just look at the evidence I posted, though.

Here is something you might enjoy (then again, you might not):

http://www.2001translation.com/Authenticity.htm

Take care!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
What has been proven? Certainly not the story of Noah's ark so what are you saying has been proven! Good Grief.
Do you remember my post to you regarding the dimensions of the Ark? That's what you were responding to, yes?

Those dimensions have been revealed, by modern shipbuilders, to be ideal for the Ark, a non-powered vessel, whose sole purpose was to float. How did Moses know?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I'm going to address each one of your objections, but one at a time:

1. The vast herds found in Alaska are related to climate change and has nothing to do with the flood. The flood would cause to rapid decomposing of the animals for that to be an explanation

First, the vast herds died quickly. Natural climate change can't account for the extinction.
These animals would've simply moved south.

Second....how does / can the Arctic support "vast herds" of grazing animals? Do we see grazing animals there now? Why not? But they were there, back then.

Furthermore, it was the "waters above", which formed some of the waters of the Flood, that resulted in a warmer climate existing before the Flood.

When those "above" waters fell to Earth, they suddenly and dramatically altered the climate, from temperate to freezing!

That explains why huge numbers of these mega grazers, are found entombed in the Siberian Permafrost and Alaskan and Yukon Arctic tundra.

NOVA | Megabeasts' Sudden Death | The Extinction Debate | PBS

http://www.amendez.com/Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Do you remember my post to you regarding the dimensions of the Ark? That's what you were responding to, yes?

Those dimensions have been revealed, by modern shipbuilders, to be ideal for the Ark, a non-powered vessel, whose sole purpose was to float. How did Moses know?

That does not prove anything about the flood. The ark still could not do what the myth suggests. It does what Moses knew since he did not make the ark. Viking ships were amazingly designed for what they had to do but Moses did not tell the Vikings how to make there ships. Again it is all irrelevant since no matter how well designed the ark may have been in the story it would not hold what it would need to hold to explain our world today.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I'm going to address each one of your objections, but one at a time:



First, the vast herds died quickly. Natural climate change can't account for the extinction.
These animals would've simply moved south.

Second....how does / can the Arctic support "vast herds" of grazing animals? Do we see grazing animals there now? Why not? But they were there, back then.

Furthermore, it was the "waters above", which formed some of the waters of the Flood, that resulted in a warmer climate existing before the Flood.

When those "above" waters fell to Earth, they suddenly and dramatically altered the climate, from temperate to freezing!

That explains why huge numbers of these mega grazers, are found entombed in the Siberian Permafrost and Alaskan and Yukon Arctic tundra.

NOVA | Megabeasts' Sudden Death | The Extinction Debate | PBS

http://www.amendez.com/Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I'm going to address each one of your objections, but one at a time:



First, the vast herds died quickly. Natural climate change can't account for the extinction.
These animals would've simply moved south.

Second....how does / can the Arctic support "vast herds" of grazing animals? Do we see grazing animals there now? Why not? But they were there, back then.

Furthermore, it was the "waters above", which formed some of the waters of the Flood, that resulted in a warmer climate existing before the Flood.

When those "above" waters fell to Earth, they suddenly and dramatically altered the climate, from temperate to freezing!

That explains why huge numbers of these mega grazers, are found entombed in the Siberian Permafrost and Alaskan and Yukon Arctic tundra.

NOVA | Megabeasts' Sudden Death | The Extinction Debate | PBS

http://www.amendez.com/Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf
The death of vast herd of animals can happen in rapid weather changes. You are confusing the deposits of a group of animals with the extinction of the animals. The extinction of those animals occurred over a long period of time based on the evidence we have and certainly not in 80 days. Moving south would depend on whether the southern environment would support them if not they were trapped.

The current arctic supports herds animals that have adapted to that environment. The animal found in the area you cited were adapted to a time when vegetation did support them. When the climate changed, it changed faster than the ability for those animals to adapt. That is what is happening to animals today so we have current evidence of how it could happen.

The "waters above"? What are you talking about. There is not and never has been enough water in the atmosphere to flood the entire world. That is creative thinking in a desperate attempt to support what could not happen.

Your last statement that the falling water cause the world to freeze is imaginary. You actually think that falling water, which I assume you are referring to the rain, could cause the glaciers for form? These animals would then be frozen instantaneously? So you do not believe in the laws of physics and thermodynamics? Was the freezing mentioned in the bible?

Still waiting on some actual proof that is not imaginary.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Again it is all irrelevant since no matter how well designed the ark may have been in the story it would not hold what it would need to hold to explain our world today.

Hey, there's a way you can ignore those perfect dimensions: by saying the Ark couldn't have met the requirements of what was needed.
But you’re wrong.

Yes, it could. (You didn't read the University of Leicester paper, did you?)
"For the study, the students settled on a cubit being 48.2cm long and found the ark could support the weight of 2.5 million sheep. The university said that previous research suggested there were approximately 35,000 species of animals in Noah’s time."
-- ‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’
So, Noah needed only about 35,000 different land animals, to comprise 3/4 of the diversity of species that are estimated to exist today... 3/4 of 8.7 million total sea and land species.
( Species count put at 8.7 million ).

Micro evolution would do the rest!

Or don't you believe in evolution?
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The "waters above"? What are you talking about. There is not and never has been enough water in the atmosphere to flood the entire world. That is creative thinking in a desperate attempt to support what could not happen.

Now see, this is a strawman. (I've already explained this issue in previous posts.) Did you not read my response to you, wherein I said the waters above were "some" of the Flood waters? Are you even a little familiar with what Genesis says about the Flood?

Most of the water in the Flood, came from "springs of the vast watery deep (that) were broken open." -- Genesis 7:11.

I'm not repeating myself anymore. I posted this as a courtesy, but I'm not going to repost what is already here in the thread.

Take care.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Hey, there's a way you can ignore those perfect dimensions: by saying the Ark couldn't have met the requirements of what was needed.
But your wrong.

Yes, it could. (You didn't read the University of Leicester paper, did you?)
"For the study, the students settled on a cubit being 48.2cm long and found the ark could support the weight of 2.5 million sheep. The university said that previous research suggested there were approximately 35,000 species of animals in Noah’s time."
-- ‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’
So, Noah needed only about 35,000 different land animals, to comprise 3/4 of the diversity of species that are estimated to exist today... 3/4 of 8.7 million total sea and land species.
( Species count put at 8.7 million ).

Micro evolution would do the rest!

Or don't you believe in evolution?
There are over 900,000 species of insects with current estimates as high as 5 million. No one knows the number of species at the time of Noah if he existed at all so for anyone to give a number such as 35,000 does not know what they are talking about and should be avoided to have any credibility since there clearly was not a censes of the number of animals at the time that Noah could have existed. I read the report from the University of Leicester. They did not know the number of species. The bible does not give an approximate count for the number of species.

You also have not taken into account all of the plants. Were they included on the ark too? There is no explanation of how all of the animals from all of the parts of the earth could even reach the ark. Even if the ark could support the weight of the animals it would not have the space. The animals would not have the food to last 80 days. The salinity change if it was fresh water would kill the animals adapted to salt and if it was salt water it would kill the animals adapted to fresh water. The reasons why yo cannot take this as what happen goes on and on and on. No amount of creative thinking will fix these problems.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Now see, this is a strawman. (I've already explained this issue in previous posts.) Did you not read my response to you, wherein I said the waters above were "some" of the Flood waters? Are you even a little familiar with what Genesis says about the Flood?

Most of the water in the Flood, came from "springs of the vast watery deep (that) were broken open." -- Genesis 7:11.

I'm not repeating myself anymore. I posted this as a courtesy, but I'm not going to repost what is already here in the thread.

Take care.
I am very familiar with genesis and with evolution as well as a reasonable knowledge of geology. There is no water source from springs in the earth that could cause the flood you are saying and you cannot answer the problems with the Noah story thus you repeat yourself because you do not have any real evidence to support yourself.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I am very familiar with genesis and with evolution as well as a reasonable knowledge of geology. There is no water source from springs in the earth that could cause the flood you are saying and you cannot answer the problems with the Noah story thus you repeat yourself because you do not have any real evidence to support yourself.
I'll deal with your Gish gallop, one at a time, as my time allows.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I am very familiar with genesis and with evolution as well as a reasonable knowledge of geology. There is no water source from springs in the earth that could cause the flood you are saying and you cannot answer the problems with the Noah story thus you repeat yourself because you do not have any real evidence to support yourself.
If that's the case...that you're familiar with the Flood account in Genesis....why did you say, "There is not and never has been enough water in the atmosphere to flood the entire world."??

If you are "very familiar with Genesis", then does that mean you were being disingenuous -- lying -- about the facts as the Bible presents them?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
And I just posted 8 lines of evidence that support it!
No, you posted a series of vague assertions. Then as soon as folks started requesting you to be more specific, you began dancing, dodging, and doing everything except describing specific data and demonstrating how the Biblical flood is a superior explanation.

Like I've been saying....I don't think you understand how this sort of thing is supposed to work.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
No, you posted a series of vague assertions. Then as soon as folks started requesting you to be more specific, you began dancing, dodging, and doing everything except describing specific data and demonstrating how the Biblical flood is a superior explanation.

Like I've been saying....I don't think you understand how this sort of thing is supposed to work.
And how is this supposed to work?
 
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