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Evil in the world and God

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It is unknown for the totality of all versions of gods. In practice it is subjective as what a given person believe and I do that too. But objectively as objective reality in itself it is unknown.
Believe what you want.
I see no reason to believe that any of the
numerous gods being offered is cromulent.
Any single one is most unlikely, so for all
practical purposes, it doesn't exist.

Thermodynamics analogy...
It's like mixing 2 liquids. Entropy increases,
despite the fact that they could possibly
spontaneously separate, & reduce entropy.
But statistically, it doesn't happen.
Reality confirms this.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Most of evil on this planet earth is because of humans. God gave humans free will. starvation could stop tomorrow if all humans cooperated.

I believe God gave us free will because God is loving. God do not want someone to be forced to love him.

I also believe this life is also a test. Like a school for the soul. To learn lessions. This worrld is full of contradictions because to know what goodness is, the opposite must exist. to know what is hot, you have to know how cold it is. if the world was only goodness then this life would not be a test and our soul would not learn so much

Do you agree or disagree? Any thoughts?
Biblical free will seems to be the ability to disobey God.
Evil would be the act of disobeying God.

Men do evil acts. God allows it to happen.
Though apparently we get punished at a later date.
Not exactly a good way of teaching.

This life you get away with evil, then get punished after you no longer have a chance to change your ways.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Believe what you want.
I see no reason to believe that any of the
numerous gods being offered is cromulent.
Any single one is most unlikely.

Yeah, for the word objective as per: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts, I see that you are subjective and so am I. But you see that subjectively differently, because you think you are not using personal feelings or opinions. I do get that. So much for definitions, right? :D
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yeah, for the word objective as per: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts, I see that you are subjective and so am I. But you see that subjectively differently, because you think you are not using personal feelings or opinions. I do get that. So much for definitions, right? :D
You should look the definitions of "subjective" & "objective".
1683034264953.jpeg
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
According to Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

And i agree with you, we are indeed fortunate that a claimed genocidal maniac who condones conquest, murder, rape, slaver etc and who seems proud of created evil does not exist

How do you "create evil" like evil is a thing or an object instead of a act.
Unless God causes men to act in evil ways.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You should look the definitions of "subjective" & "objective".
View attachment 76193

I did!
"

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
objective
adjective
1.
(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. ..."

So here we go with the internal game of definitions. Yours are correct and mine are wrong, right?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How do you "create evil" like evil is a thing or an object instead of a act.
Unless God causes men to act in evil ways.

If the guy can create a universe then evil would be childs play. Or perhaps the bible is just full of _________ (fill in the blank)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Well, evil is as far as I can tell the evaluation of an act and not the act itself. But never mind that. ;)

So then God creates evil by declaring something evil?
Is there a standard process to this evaluation or a random declaration?

Is it evil because God says it is evil?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So then God creates evil by declaring something evil?
Is there a standard process to this evaluation or a random declaration?

Is it evil because God says it is evil?

I don't know. That is unknow to us humans as far as I can tell. But it is great fun as a debate and in another sense not unlike seeing paint dry.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Most of evil on this planet earth is because of humans. God gave humans free will. starvation could stop tomorrow if all humans cooperated.

I believe God gave us free will because God is loving. God do not want someone to be forced to love him.

I also believe this life is also a test. Like a school for the soul. To learn lessions. This worrld is full of contradictions because to know what goodness is, the opposite must exist. to know what is hot, you have to know how cold it is. if the world was only goodness then this life would not be a test and our soul would not learn so much

Do you agree or disagree? Any thoughts?
Ergo, heaven must contain evil, too. Otherwise, how would anyone be able to tell what goodness in heaven really is?

same thing with free will. If God follows through with His love for us in heaven, then we must have free will in heaven, too. With all the dangers associated, since you seem to indicate that most evil is caused by an exercising of free will.

which begs the question: what is the difference between heaven, and here?

ciao

- viole
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Most of evil on this planet earth is because of humans. God gave humans free will. starvation could stop tomorrow if all humans cooperated.

I believe God gave us free will because God is loving. God do not want someone to be forced to love him.

I also believe this life is also a test. Like a school for the soul. To learn lessions. This worrld is full of contradictions because to know what goodness is, the opposite must exist. to know what is hot, you have to know how cold it is. if the world was only goodness then this life would not be a test and our soul would not learn so much

Do you agree or disagree? Any thoughts?

My Dad had a joke he liked to tell:

"Why are you banging your head against the wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop."


So you've applied the same idea to theology and theodicy, eh?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So here we go with the internal game of definitions. Yours are correct and mine are wrong, right?
You should use "subjective" to describe subjective things.
And "objective" to describe objective things.
The words have different meanings that are useful.
(I know Stevie will disagree, but that's just his path.)
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..which begs the question: what is the difference between heaven, and here?
The evil and righteousness are separated..
..not perfectly, because the concept of heaven and hell are just that .. concepts.
..but adulterers and murderers cannot be in heaven without sincere repentance.

Without sincere repentance, they will still be adulterers and murderers.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The evil and righteousness are separated..
..not perfectly, because the concept of heaven and hell are just that .. concepts.
..but adulterers and murderers cannot be in heaven without sincere repentance.

Without sincere repentance, they will still be adulterers and murderers.
What makes you think that sincere repentance will not be forgotten, say, a billion years later in heaven? I mean, if those souls have free will, then all bets are really off.

ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You should use "subjective" to describe subjective things.
And "objective" to describe objective things.
The words have different meanings that are useful.
(I know Stevie will disagree, but that's just his path.)

Yeah, objective reality in itself is knowable as an abstract, but not a thing. Where as thing is also an abstract but a different category. Useful is not objective as far as I can tell.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yeah, objective reality in itself is knowable as an abstract, but not a thing. Where as thing is also an abstract but a different category. Useful is not objective as far as I can tell.
Applying probability to many things in life is objective
& useful. It's necessary in engineering analysis.
But if you deny the existence of objectivity, you'll
never make it in science, engineering, or business.
But you might have a future in government.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Most of evil on this planet earth is because of humans. God gave humans free will. starvation could stop tomorrow if all humans cooperated.

I believe God gave us free will because God is loving. God do not want someone to be forced to love him.

I also believe this life is also a test. Like a school for the soul. To learn lessions. This worrld is full of contradictions because to know what goodness is, the opposite must exist. to know what is hot, you have to know how cold it is. if the world was only goodness then this life would not be a test and our soul would not learn so much

Do you agree or disagree? Any thoughts?
People don't complain about good in the world!

When God created imperfect beings then the potential for evil came into existence. In that way God created evil.

When I had children I knew they would experience both good and evil, joy and sorrow. Its part of experince.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Applying probability to many things in life is objective
& useful. It's necessary in engineering analysis.
But if you deny the existence of objectivity, you'll
never make it in science, engineering, or business.
But you might have a future in government.

I don't deny it. I just do parts of life differently than you. I learned to include the objective, the social and the individual in my line of work and thus not always treating other humans as objects of a process, but as individuals. That is all. Our personal culture is different.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm with the majority on most points here.
Most of evil on this planet earth is because of humans.
Evil is a word I avoid. There's human malice and bad luck, and I don't need the word to describe evil. The reason is because of all of the baggage involved in the religious version of evil, which includes cosmological battles among disembodied spirits or cosmic forces. I leave all such words including sin and soul to the faithful for the same reason. It's also why I don't call the mysteries of the cosmos or the laws of nature "God," because the word has too much baggage. Look at what became of Einstein for his injudicious use of the word God to mean nature and its ways.
God gave humans free will.
I don't believe that the Abrahamic god exists - I don't believe in any gods, but that one can be ruled out empirically - nor that we have more than an illusion of free will. The self is a passive observer of the output of neural circuits delivering imperatives to consciousness, which are dutifully executed by the body as the self looks on as an observer of what the brain shows it.
starvation could stop tomorrow if all humans cooperated.
Is starvation evil to you? It's undesirable and unpleasant, but not a consequence of malice - just greed and indifference. Is there a god who could intervene but doesn't?
I believe God gave us free will because God is loving.
More loving would be to give people the will to protect one another. More loving would be to prevent people from making choices that result in damnation. The Abrahamic god is said to have made a hell and staffed it with demons for the purpose of gratuitously torturing unwilling souls kept conscious eternally just so that they can suffer to the benefit of nobody but sadists. Where do you see love in that?
God do not want someone to be forced to love him.
Why not? If God "forced" everybody to obey the two cardinal commandments about loving God and one another, everybody wins. But you describe a god that gives people not just the ability to harm one another but the free will to do as they desire, and then punishes them in the extreme for it. People have told you that and you believed them. And they called it love, and I doubt that you disagreed.
I also believe this life is also a test. Like a school for the soul. To learn lessions.
I don't believe that the word soul has any literal referent that survives death. Life is a game with rules, although one could also call it a test. We awaken in the world and its ways in a body containing a mind that experiences pleasure and suffering, and usually has a preference for the former. You job is to discover and implement the rules that optimize that experience. But as best we can tell, it ends with death.
In an indirect way, God created evil.
You seem to believe that God created good behavior in man but also gave him the ability to harm one another. The addition of a god adds nothing to what is what we would expect to find living in a godless universe.
He allowed evil to exist because we have free will and he allowed evil to exist because our life is a test from God.
Do you know who else speaks like that? Abused people defending their abuser, who will harm you and then gaslight you about it being done for your own good rather than to satisfy their sadistic desires. How many mothers have stood by watching their babies being harmed by a man who says that he is teaching them for their own good using tough love?
I am not a robot
Sure you are, as are we all. You obey your will like everybody else, and are not the source of it - just like an unconscious robot that necessarily obeys electrical instructions. Maybe you mean that you are conscious or organic rather than metallic. Doesn't change the calculus. If you are a passive recipient of your will and obedience to it is imposed, you meet the qualifications for robothood. Here's hoping that your neural circuits direct you to find happiness.
 
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