• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evolution and Creationism. Are they really different?

NoorNoor

Member
It can be considered more scientific than any claim to the contrary. The fact is that we don't know under what conditions life CAN arise, we are only aware that life HAS arisen under earth's conditions.

It can be more scientific, less scientific, just scientific or it can be any thing depending on your definition of science. If we use the word scientific, then we have to agree on its definition (as a reference) before we use it. A well identified reference is required to give a definition to any thing in comparison or relative to this already established reference. Otherwise all is equal, all is meaningless.

To assert that therefore earth's conditions are the ONLY conditions under which life can arise is completely baseless, and it is far more accurate to state that while life has been demonstrated to arise under earth's specific conditions, we cannot assume that life cannot arise under entirely different conditions. That is a separate claim which requires demonstration.

This claim may be more philosophically accepted but definitely not more scientific. You can claim either way but once a claim is supported by observations, then it's a scientific claim. The other claim stays a possibility not science. In fact, the claim that is not supported by observations is specifically the claim that requires demonstration not the opposite.

The default position is simply not to assume either way.

Your default Position is philosophical not scientific. No thing wrong with that. I agree with respect to the limits of science and that Logic would give meaning to science itself "But" if some one claims that he represents a scientific point of view, then he needs to demonstrate it.
 

NoorNoor

Member
You've not really answered my question. How exactly have you determined that a Universe with life is any more intrinsically "ordered" than a Universe without life?

We have to agree on some principals otherwise we just would keep running in meaningless circles. Do you accept that an established reference is required to give definition to a value? Yes or no? The word "order" itself can't have a meaning in isolation unless you relate it to a reference. Nothing has an absolute meaning in isolation of reference. (Unless we talk about an absolute reference that gives meaning to every thing else)

Why should life be the reference against which you make a judgement as to whether or not the Universe was necessarily ordered?

Why not?? If we already agreed that we need a reference to identify the intent of the word "order", then, in this specific case, in relation to the intent of our discussion, life would be the logical reference against which the meaning of the word "order" can be identified.

How do you know that the Universe was designed for life rather than, say, puddles? What's your evidence?

If the very existence of this complex life model absolutely depends on this specific configurations of the universe to exist. Then these configurations can be claimed to be an intentional design for the purpose of allowing life to exist. Unless you claim that life can exist in any other circumstances. In that case, you would need to provide evidence for this hypothesis not the opposite.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
We have to agree on some principals otherwise we just would keep running in meaningless circles. Do you accept that an established reference is required to give definition to a value? Yes or no? The word "order" itself can't have a meaning in isolation unless you relate it to a reference. Nothing has an absolute meaning in isolation of reference. (Unless we talk about an absolute reference that gives meaning to every thing else)
But that would make the distinction essentially meaningless. If you understand that "order" is a term that doesn't have any use beyond that which we assign to it, using "order" in relation to a measurable facet of the Universe is asinine. You're asserting that there is such a thing as "order" and that life's existence is an indicator of that. I simply believe that "order" is merely the result of human perception making sense of the things it is exposed to - not an intrinsic facet of the Universe. Therefore, stating "order" as an intrinsic value just makes no sense.

Why not??
Because you have no basis on which to assert that order is in intrinsic value of the Universe.

If we already agreed that we need a reference to identify the intent of the word "order", then, in this specific case, in relation to the intent of our discussion, life would be the logical reference against which the meaning of the word "order" can be identified.
Except I never agreed to that. I have repeatedly explained why using the term "order" in this way is problematic.

If the very existence of this complex life model absolutely depends on this specific configurations of the universe to exist. Then these configurations can be claimed to be an intentional design for the purpose of allowing life to exist.
False. You are committing the puddle fallacy. This is no different to saying "because this hole in the ground perfectly fits the amount of water in it, the shape of the hope can be claimed to be an intentional design for the purpose of holding this specific quantity of water". It's just fallacious reasoning that gets things the wrong way. We have no reason to assume that the Universe exists for the formation of life, only that the formation of life exists as a result of the formation of the Universe.

Unless you claim that life can exist in any other circumstances. In that case, you would need to provide evidence for this hypothesis not the opposite.
No I don't, because I don't have to make any such claim. All I have to do is reject your claim and ask you to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that there is only one specific possible set of circumstances through which life can arise, and how you can demonstrate that these circumstances were necessarily the result of design.
 
Last edited:

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
But that would make the distinction essentially meaningless. If you understand that "order" is a term that doesn't have any use beyond that which we assign to it, using "order" in relation to a measurable facet of the Universe is asinine. You're asserting that there is such a thing as "order" and that life's existence is an indicator of that. I simply believe that "order" is merely the result of human perception making sense of the things it is exposed to - not an intrinsic facet of the Universe. Therefore, stating "order" as an intrinsic value just makes no sense.


Because you have no basis on which to assert that order is in intrinsic value of the Universe.


Except I never agreed to that. I have repeatedly explained why using the term "order" in this way is problematic.


False. You are committing the puddle fallacy. This is no different to saying "because this hole in the ground perfectly fits the amount of water in it, the shape of the hope can be claimed to be an intentional design for the purpose of holding this specific quantity of water". It's just fallacious reasoning that gets things the wrong way. We have no reason to assume that the Universe exists for the formation of life, only that the formation of life exists as a result of the formation of the Universe.


No I don't, because I don't have to make any such claim. All I have to do is reject your claim and ask you to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that there is only one specific possible set of circumstances through which life can arise, and how you can demonstrate that these circumstances were necessarily the result of design.
These are 'my' quotes?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It can be more scientific, less scientific, just scientific or it can be any thing depending on your definition of science. If we use the word scientific, then we have to agree on its definition (as a reference) before we use it. A well identified reference is required to give a definition to any thing in comparison or relative to this already established reference. Otherwise all is equal, all is meaningless.
That's all well and good, but you didn't define the term when you used it earlier either.

This claim may be more philosophically accepted but definitely not more scientific.
And how did you determine that? It's clearly more factually and scientifically accurate.

You can claim either way but once a claim is supported by observations, then it's a scientific claim.
So that's your definition of a scientific claim? Then mine is more scientifically accurate.

The other claim stays a possibility not science. In fact, the claim that is not supported by observations is specifically the claim that requires demonstration not the opposite.
So you think the statement "Life has arisen under these conditions, but we have no means to state definitively that these are the ONLY conditions under which life can arise" is less supported by evidene than the claims "Life can only possibly arise under these specific conditions"? Where your evidence, then?

Your default Position is philosophical not scientific.
False. It is known in science as the null hypothesis.

No thing wrong with that. I agree with respect to the limits of science and that Logic would give meaning to science itself "But" if some one claims that he represents a scientific point of view, then he needs to demonstrate it.
I agree. So can you demonstrate yours?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
The two aren't mutually exclusive. M-theory includes Big Bang.


Other forms of physical life are possible. Likely even according to Drake. But that wasn't at all what I was saying anyway, only that life appears to be confined to specific parameters because of the environment it evolved in, not because the environment was made to suit it.
Giraffes survived the mutations for elongated neck trait because there was a foliage food source to exploit. Not because the trees were made for them. If there hadn't have been trees, or the trees were nutrient poor or poisonous, giraffes would have died.

Did anyone ever find any fossil remains of that imaginary short necked Giraffe yet?
 

NoorNoor

Member
Except the entire collected body of work in biology...

This a very vague statement. Can you give an example.

If we agree life evolved not designed and agree it can evolve in totally different environment, then lets consider our own environment, why in an atmosphere with 78% nitrogen, we find humans, animals, birds, insects (even fish) depend on oxygen to breathe. Why can't we see totally different type of life dependent on nitrogen since its already abundant in the environment? Why life didn't evolve this way? Why carbon based life? Why not silicon based sort of life? Silicon is way more abundant than carbon. that would mean that life depends on specific requirements to exist. It's not about what's available in an environment but about the specific criteria that supports the specific life model.

You stated "you must understand that the water conforms to the hole it's in, not the other way around." it doesn't appear that live conformed. Can you give an example of different type of life other than the carbon based model??
 

NoorNoor

Member
You mean "I don't feel so."
It's a Giraffid. You have a different interpretation of it's genetics?

Both live "today", both live in a similar environment yet both are different. I know you would say both came from same ancestor. Why they evolved differently? Why ended with two types only? If okapi survived with a short neck, then other nick sizes in-between would had a chance also to survive? If the giraffe evolved gradually from originally short to long neck, then you would expect all sizes in between to be in fossil record. Why it was not found?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Different forms evolve to exploit different ecological niches, NoorNoor. Just because a species is successfully exploiting one niche doesn't mean it can't evolve traits that would enable it to expand into other niches.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This a very vague statement. Can you give an example.

If we agree life evolved not designed and agree it can evolve in totally different environment, then lets consider our own environment, why in an atmosphere with 78% nitrogen, we find humans, animals, birds, insects (even fish) depend on oxygen to breathe. Why can't we see totally different type of life dependent on nitrogen since its already abundant in the environment? Why life didn't evolve this way? Why carbon based life? Why not silicon based sort of life? Silicon is way more abundant than carbon. that would mean that life depends on specific requirements to exist. It's not about what's available in an environment but about the specific criteria that supports the specific life model.

You stated "you must understand that the water conforms to the hole it's in, not the other way around." it doesn't appear that live conformed. Can you give an example of different type of life other than the carbon based model??
Sounds like you're confusing evolution for Lamarkism.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
If we agree life evolved not designed and agree it can evolve in totally different environment, then lets consider our own environment, why in an atmosphere with 78% nitrogen, we find humans, animals, birds, insects (even fish) depend on oxygen to breathe. Why can't we see totally different type of life dependent on nitrogen since its already abundant in the environment?
The reason for that is because nitrogen is a diatomic molecule with a strong intramolecular bonding force. This makes it unlikely to react with other chemicals unless large input energies are present. Consequently, reactions involving gaseous nitrogen often consume energy instead of releasing it. Oxygen gas, on the other hand, is a strong oxidizing agent which readily reacts with a wide variety of chemicals to release energy. Life never had a choice in the matter: nitrogen was never an option as an energy source
Why life didn't evolve this way? Why carbon based life? Why not silicon based sort of life? Silicon is way more abundant than carbon. that would mean that life depends on specific requirements to exist. It's not about what's available in an environment but about the specific criteria that supports the specific life model.
Silicon is more common but it is also (1) far harder to extract from the environment because it's tied up in rocks which aren't exactly reactive, and (2) carbon is far more flexible in its chemistry.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
I am not a physicist, just a poor mathematician, but I will give my two cents.

Classical physics is what quantum mechanics tend to when you have a lot of things, e.g particles, which are individually subject to quantum mechanics only. In other words, our reality is the actualization of expected values that the parts would assume when taken alone and subject to probability only. Since you have many of those, a lot of equal expected value will translate in the instance of that expected value (or mean value to be more exact). That is why macroscopic things seem to be deterministically determined.

To make an example. If you take a particle that can be randomly red or black, but its average value is towards black, then a lot of those partilces will be black when observed. And a body consisting of very many of them will look pitch black. With such a high probability to be indistinguishable from determinism.

So, I think that macroscopic determinism necessisates that quantum information is preserved. Therefore, believing that we can affect macroscopic determinism by means of free will, entails that we can affect the average values at quantum level for a multitude of particles at the same time. Ergo, that we break unitarity not for a ball, but for zillions of little random balls.

And this would make things even worse for whomever believes in free will changing the state of the Universe in such a way that is nor reducible to states prior to her decision.

Ciao

- viole

But if it's just an average, and it's ultimately, probabilistic in the end, then the black object occasionally and momentarily becoming red, isn't any true violation. At best you can call it a statistical impossibility, which is not at true impossibility. It may only be impossible in the same sense that throwing dice and landing snake eyes a googolplex times in a row is impossible. In all practicality, it's a statistical impossibility, which really means it's only highly improbable. The only true impossibilities are the physically impossible, logically impossible, and mathematically impossible. But this is only mathematically improbable, which isn't a physical impossibility.

Also with the case of of your hypothetical mass with the red and black particles, maybe the perpetual pitch-blackness only seems that way to the naked eye. But let's say it's being observed with highly precised instruments that chart it's redness and blackness on a line graph. It may chart the most minute spikes in the red spectrum that we couldn't possibly see with the naked eye, but the fact that there's spikes at all on the chart would suggest that things aren't completely determinate. And of course, it would show spikes on the graph in the black "spectrum" (I know there's no black spectrum, but you get what I mean lol) that shows it dipping below its average blackness.

If the machine is precise enough, then there's no way the ratio is completely uniform throughout time. Because that would suggest that the amount of particles being red and black at any given time, is always that exact value all the time. e.g. there's always exactly 33,728,388,026 red particles out of a total of 100 trillion particles. There's never 33,728,388,027 or 33,728,388,025. I think what you're saying though is that you're fine with those minute fluctuations, but that a mass going from having roughly 33 billion red particles to suddenly having nearly 100 trillion particles is far too unlikely to ever happen. But maybe that doesn't have to happen. The universe is known to have chaotic systems. Meaning they are systems that are sensitive to minute changes, such that when the changes happen, the system will have a dramatic behavior.

In other words, maybe a single particle turning red inside of a person is enough of a fluctuation for the person to decide take on a path of professional race car driving instead of a life of a chief. Okay maybe it's not that chaotic. Maybe it's enough for the person to decide to race cars instead of motorcycles, and maybe it's a thousand red particles instead of one.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
You mean "I don't feel so."
It's a Giraffid. You have a different interpretation of it's genetics?

An Okapi-

The direct ancestor of a Giraffe has never been found,

Of course species share similar designs, just as we can find a Toyota and a Chevy that share many traits, it doesn't mean that one 'begat' the other, far less through spontaneous accident!
 
Top