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Evolution and Creationism. Are they really different?

NoorNoor

Member
See ... that's putting a modern meaning to an ancient fable that really does not fit. If you actually believe that there is any similarity between a leach digesting a blood meal through it's alimentary canal and an embryo's connection through its placenta, then you know no biology
Yes, absolutely, there is a similarity. Can you think of a better example or a word that could have been used to convey the Specific meaning to people who lived 1400 years ago? If you can, let me know. There is no better word in the Arabic language that could better convey that meaning for something that is ""suspended from the womb and obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother"". In any case , top scientists in their field (Keith L. Moore, E. Marshall Johnson, Joe Leigh Simpson and many other) had different conclusion than yours. Why would your opinion deserve more credit than scientists of that caliber?

you should drop out of this conversation

You are sure welcome to share your opinion "if you wish" but beyond that, whether I continue or stop a conversation with any other member on this forum is none of your business.
 

NoorNoor

Member
Things like the Quran, the Bible, or I Ching are just written in inexact and flowery language that often lets them be interpreted any old way you want. That hardly makes them science.

You are making a claim about something that you have no knowledge of.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They're not scientific texts.
Sometimes they appear tantalizingly accurate, other times they miss the mark entirely.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Is/Are issues are common. If you can not figure this out you are not as smart as you think you are. You ignore the context and focus on grammar which is a red herring.

No, I am simply responding to what you said. If you mean something other than what you said, then you should say what you mean. Grammar is not a red herring. It's a system that we use so that people can understand what we mean to express.

Why don't we just start over from the beginning and you can start by saying what you mean.

No it is your conclusion as you are interpreting what you want rather than simply acknowledging the is/are issue which is apparent.
No, I am simply asking whether you really mean what you have said.

His arguments are laughable as he is using the wrong method for metaphysics. That is my conclusion and was when first stated.
If that's your conclusion, then why didn't you just say it at the beginning and provide additional statements that would let me know why you believe as you do?

Yes he did as he hammered home the point that empiricism fails for noumena thus he argued for two views being separated.
Well, empiricism fails, full stop.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Yes, absolutely, there is a similarity. Can you think of a better example or a word that could have been used to convey the Specific meaning to people who lived 1400 years ago? If you can, let me know. There is no better word in the Arabic language that could better convey that meaning for something that is ""suspended from the womb and obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother"". In any case , top scientists in their field (Keith L. Moore, E. Marshall Johnson, Joe Leigh Simpson and many other) had different conclusion than yours. Why would your opinion deserve more credit than scientists of that caliber?



You are sure welcome to share your opinion "if you wish" but beyond that, whether I continue or stop a conversation with any other member on this forum is none of your business.
Your continuance after your face plant is entirely your affair, however, a competent and honest intellectual would apologize and drop out.
You are making a claim about something that you have no knowledge of.
You have no basis for that opinion either.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
No, I am simply responding to what you said. If you mean something other than what you said, then you should say what you mean. Grammar is not a red herring. It's a system that we use so that people can understand what we mean to express.

The issue is you are not even attempting to solve the issue yourself nor are you calming requesting clarification. You are using grammar as an excuse to ignore arguments. Nothing more

Why don't we just start over from the beginning and you can start by saying what you mean.

If you drop the grammar hammer sure. I would like you to start by pointing out a set of questions, points or other comments that need clarification.

No, I am simply asking whether you really mean what you have said.

Aquinas' first cause argument is inductive as contingency is based on causation principles which is based on what we now call empiricism.

If that's your conclusion, then why didn't you just say it at the beginning and provide additional statements that would let me know why you believe as you do?

A failing of mine in assuming people bring up the argument know something about it and the faults pointed out centuries ago.

Well, empiricism fails, full stop.

No it fails for metaphysics and ethics, it works fine for phenomena
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
...
No it fails for metaphysics and ethics, it works fine for phenomena
No, it works well for ethics (investigate evolutionarily stable strategies and what has grown from the seminal work: Maynard Smith, J. (1972). "Game Theory and The Evolution of Fighting". On Evolution. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-85224-223-9.

As far as metaphysics is concerned, many answers to seemingly metaphysical questions are available from empiricism, I am tempted (in a non-empirical bust of hubris) to say, answers to all of the actually inportant questions that effect day to day life and progress beyond compulsive navel contemplation.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Literally, the Arabic word "alaqah" means leech or suspended thing. the embryo, during this stage "alaqah stage", in suspended from the womb and obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother (Exactly like a leech) Other than illogical argument that other terms (modern or scientific?) should have been used in Quran. The word "alaqah" is absolutely the most accurate word that could have been used for the specific intended meaning. No other Arabic word could have been more accurate. Your ignorance of the language is the reason for this claim. if you had any knowledge of the language, I would have challenged you to find more accurate word for that meaning (other than modern scientific terms). Unfortunately you don't, yet you make such baseless claim about a language that you absolutely have no knowledge about simply and clearly because you are sold on a view.

Addressed and refuted in the paper linked. Your picture removed the yoke sac which is part of the embryo and forms out lower body such as our stomach and "guts" Ironically the "cord" is from the yoke sac... Your description is nothing remarkable as Hippocrates already noted the embryo hangs from a cord joined with a vein which extends into the uterus and has blood running through it.

Also note the word also means blood cloth which was perfectly acceptable centuries until this miracle nonsense started. Again something observable by anyone and a conclusion based on ignorance.

A leech maintains it's own bodily functions without the host; it breathes, pumps blood, etc. A embryo can not function without the parent's biological function sustaining it.

The Greek were able to provide description without word gymnastics which equating a leech with an embryo. Allah should of picked a better language to communicate with

The verses simply said heaven and earth were one and God broke it apart (singularity then a big bang). The other verse said that God is expanding the heavens which is confirmed by observations of the universe. The verses are simple and clear. The confusion is not in the original text at all but in the interpretations of scholars who lived hundreds of years ago and where not aware of the modern scientific facts.

The Earth never existed for billions of years after the BB event thus the verse is wrong. I already pointed out how poor your argument is from a Muslim physicist. Expanding is a modern interpretation made after the theory was published. Before it was just vast and wide. Also the verse is about Allah have done something, past tense, and capable of it, not an on going effect.

It maybe considered a leap of logic if it was only one or two verses but when you see many verses that show clear consistency with modern scientific facts in a very simple and clear language, then it's not a coincidence.

Your prior arguments are flawed. Any further researching based on your flawed premise will not lead to a conclusion supported by even a weak argument. There is no coincidence since the ideas were already floating around for centuries prior to Islam.

I am not making any claim. I can read the language myself and understand it. I see the consistency with modern scientific facts. You argue the meaning of Adh-Dhariyat 47 based on interpretations or translations of people who had absolutely no knowledge of the scientific facts but You can neither read nor understand the original text.

You are claiming you can read Classical Arabic based on read Standard Arabic. Heck you do not even know modern Quran use a standard model thus are not the same as the sources used. You then assume this makes you an expert, it doesn't.

The prophet was illiterate and lived in an illiterate environment 1400 hundreds years ago in the desert of Arabia with no access to the knowledge of the Greeks or any others.

Too bad there are examples of literate people that worked with Muhammad such as his scribe and his physician. Heck Abu Bakr was literate.... Your interpretation is wrong. The illiteracy of the people from the verse is in regards to scripture not language and writing.

His first step to knowledge (not only him but an entire nation) was through the first verse of Quran "Al-Alaq" meaning "The leech".

Not much of a step.

The first verse "Al-Alaq/the leech" said " Read in the name of your Lord who created, created man from a leech, read and your lord is the most majestic, who taught with the pen, taught man what he knew not"

Which is nothing special.

In about 100 years, this illiterate nation transformed to be the most advanced civilization on earth (at that time) and lasted for about 600 years. Its true that the islamic golden age ended long time ago (the 13th century) but during the golden age, the foundation for modern science were established. Without this foundation, modern science as we know it today, wouldn't have been possible.

Already pointed out Arabia was not illiterate as a whole. Much of your foundation are based on acquiring Persian, Indian and Greek knowledge. The Quran nor Islam provided any direct discoveries rather just like any religion provided inspiration. Inspiration is not a source of anything but inspiration. You also seemed to forgot the majority of population of this empire for the first centuries was not Muslim but Christians. Christians which translated the majority of the source material for these discoveries. Islam didn't inspire them to anything. You also forget the cultural heritage of Central Asian which was a driving force for scientific development for centuries. If you look at the number of Muslim scientist Arabized Persians are far more represented than Arabs themselves.


A pop-science video for children. Please.....
 

Shad

Veteran Member
No, it works well for ethics (investigate evolutionarily stable strategies and what has grown from the seminal work: Maynard Smith, J. (1972). "Game Theory and The Evolution of Fighting". On Evolution. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-85224-223-9.

I do not mean using science to understand our social habits and constructs rather using it as a guiding method to resolve complex moral and ethical issues. We need a set of values which I do not think science can nor is suitable to provide.

As far as metaphysics is concerned, many answers to seemingly metaphysical questions are available from empiricism, I am tempted (in a non-empirical bust of hubris) to say, answers to all of the actually inportant questions that effect day to day life and progress beyond compulsive navel contemplation.

Sure many practical issues can be addressed. However for many the "great questions" can never be resolved as the answers are unsatisfying or view that methods used by science miss the point.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Literally, the Arabic word "alaqah" means leech or suspended thing. the embryo, during this stage "alaqah stage", in suspended from the womb and obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother (Exactly like a leech) Other than illogical argument that other terms (modern or scientific?) should have been used in Quran. The word "alaqah" is absolutely the most accurate word that could have been used for the specific intended meaning. No other Arabic word could have been more accurate. Your ignorance of the language is the reason for this claim. if you had any knowledge of the language, I would have challenged you to find more accurate word for that meaning (other than modern scientific terms). Unfortunately you don't, yet you make such baseless claim about a language that you absolutely have no knowledge about simply and clearly because you are sold on a view.

https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a-img1.jpg


The verses simply said heaven and earth were one and God broke it apart (singularity then a big bang). The other verse said that God is expanding the heavens which is confirmed by observations of the universe. The verses are simple and clear. The confusion is not in the original text at all but in the interpretations of scholars who lived hundreds of years ago and where not aware of the modern scientific facts.

It maybe considered a leap of logic if it was only one or two verses but when you see many verses that show clear consistency with modern scientific facts in a very simple and clear language, then it's not a coincidence.



I am not making any claim. I can read the language myself and understand it. I see the consistency with modern scientific facts. You argue the meaning of Adh-Dhariyat 47 based on interpretations or translations of people who had absolutely no knowledge of the scientific facts but You can neither read nor understand the original text.



The prophet was illiterate and lived in an illiterate environment 1400 hundreds years ago in the desert of Arabia with no access to the knowledge of the Greeks or any others.
His first step to knowledge (not only him but an entire nation) was through the first verse of Quran "Al-Alaq" meaning "The leech".

The first verse "Al-Alaq/the leech" said " Read in the name of your Lord who created, created man from a leech, read and your lord is the most majestic, who taught with the pen, taught man what he knew not"

In about 100 years, this illiterate nation transformed to be the most advanced civilization on earth (at that time) and lasted for about 600 years. Its true that the islamic golden age ended long time ago (the 13th century) but during the golden age, the foundation for modern science were established. Without this foundation, modern science as we know it today, wouldn't have been possible.

At risk of "quote mining" let me point to the summation line of "Does the Qur’ān Contain Scientific Miracles"? by Hamza Adreas Tzortzis:

"This essay has argued that the scientific miracles in the Qur’ān narrative is incoherent ..." An alternative that you do not follow is proposed, but even Hamza Adreas Tzortzis thinks you're full of beans.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I do not mean using science to understand our social habits and constructs rather using it as a guiding method to resolve complex moral and ethical issues. We need a set of values which I do not think science can nor is suitable to provide.
Before you make that claim learn more about Evolutionary Stable Strategies . I recommend to you (I've read all but Shoham, Leyton-Brown, and Kevin):



Sure many practical issues can be addressed. However for many the "great questions" can never be resolved as the answers are unsatisfying or view that methods used by science miss the point.[/QUOTE]
 

NoorNoor

Member
Your continuance after your face plant is entirely your affair, however, a competent and honest intellectual would apologize

It's your typical escape route. Again, The word Alaqah in Arabic means something suspended or a leech. Now Forget the typical nonesense and answer my question (Can you think of a better example or word to convey the meaning of "something suspended from the womb and obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother" to people who lived 1400 years ago?). An honest scientist would provide an answer (if he has one) otherwise he would ignore the question rather than playing some distraction tricks.


You have no basis for that opinion either

You may be familiar with the Bible but you have no knowledge of Quran or I Ching. You made a claim about 3 very different books. Do you want to demonstrate your claim?
 

NoorNoor

Member
Addressed and refuted in the paper linked. Your picture removed the yoke sac which is part of the embryo and forms out lower body such as our stomach and "guts" Ironically the "cord" is from the yoke sac... Your description is nothing remarkable as Hippocrates already noted the embryo hangs from a cord joined with a vein which extends into the uterus and has blood running through it.

Also note the word also means blood cloth which was perfectly acceptable centuries until this miracle nonsense started. Again something observable by anyone and a conclusion based on ignorance.

A leech maintains it's own bodily functions without the host; it breathes, pumps blood, etc. A embryo can not function without the parent's biological function sustaining it.

The Greek were able to provide description without word gymnastics which equating a leech with an embryo. Allah should of picked a better language to communicate with

You are arguing that an embryo is not a leech or not identical to a leech. Of course its not. This is an irrelevant argument. The discussion is about using the word "Alaqah" for this specific stage of the human embryo. the word "Alaqah" in Arabic has multiple meanings (suspended thing, leech or blood clot). At this stage, the embryo is suspended from the womb of the mother, obtains nourishments from the blood of the mother like a leech and also has an external appearance similar to blood clot. The arabic word is very accurate for the intended meaning. If you claim it's not, then provide the correct word. if you have no clue what would be the correct word, then you should stop talking about something that you are totally ignorant about.

The Earth never existed for billions of years after the BB event thus the verse is wrong. I already pointed out how poor your argument is from a Muslim physicist.

The argument that Earth never existed for billions of years after the BB is totaly irrelevant. The verse doesn't address any specific time frame for the development of any astronomical structures or earth. The verse specifically addresses the fact that the begining was a singularity that was broken apart (At the big bang).

As I told you, I can agree with many things that this Muslim Physicist said but Not every thing. I guess this is the case for you as well. Isn't it? he is not the reference neither for me nor for you.

Expanding is a modern interpretation made after the theory was published. Before it was just vast and wide.

Wrong, expanding is not a modern interpretation at all. It's a literal meaning of the word of the original Arabic text of the Quran. In fact, I am not sure if you would see it in any old or new interpretation of the Quran. Only in the original text.

. Also the verse is about Allah have done something, past tense, and capable of it, not an on going effect

Wrong, The literal meaning is " and we are sure expanding it" it's sure an ongoing effect. It's not a past tense at all. See...you are repeating something you read without any knowledge or understanding simply because you are sold on that view. So please don't continue arguing with me that the word is a past tense. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Your prior arguments are flawed. Any further researching based on your flawed premise will not lead to a conclusion supported by even a weak argument.
Meaningless, I can repeat the exact same words to support any claim. It doesn't mean any thing.
There is no coincidence since the ideas were already floating around for centuries prior to Islam.

Maybe some ideas such as the spherical shape of earth was floating around but many Ideas such as the beginning was a singularity or expansion of the universe and many others were not floating around at all.

You are claiming you can read Classical Arabic based on read Standard Arabic. Heck you do not even know modern Quran use a standard model thus are not the same as the sources used. You then assume this makes you an expert, it doesn't.

Nonsense argument. You insist to argue about something you are totally ignorant about. No, I am not an expert but it's a relative issue. Compared to your knowledge of Arabic and Quran, I would definitely be the expert. So don't argue from ignorance about the Arabic language or Quran.

Too bad there are examples of literate people that worked with Muhammad such as his scribe and his physician. Heck Abu Bakr was literate.... Your interpretation is wrong. The illiteracy of the people from the verse is in regards to scripture not language and writing.

Again, you are making an irrelevant argument. We are talking about an illiterate environment in the desert of Arabia 1400 years ago. you are arguing that the prophet was trying to get knowledge from others to insert in Quran. The question is "why should he do that". This type of knowledge was not impressive or meaningful to any one in that environment. They can't even understand it or verify whether it's right or wrong. It doesn't even matter. This info is only relevant to us today.

Already pointed out Arabia was not illiterate as a whole. Much of your foundation are based on acquiring Persian, Indian and Greek knowledge. The Quran nor Islam provided any direct discoveries rather just like any religion provided inspiration. Inspiration is not a source of anything but inspiration

You know, I am tired of repeating the word irrelevant. Knowledge is never a start from scratch. It's always based on acquiring available knowledge of others and building on it. Do you know any scientist who started without first acquiring existing knowledge of others? Yes, Muslims acquired knowledge from every source available at that time and they sure built on it and actually established the foundation of modern science.

Yes, for sure the relegions provided inspiration but are you aware of any relegions that provided such urge for knowledge that totally transformed a nation from total ignorance to be the most advanced civilization on earth for about 600 years within less than 100 years. Islam provided the concept of perfect order/reason that controls every thing in existence and provided the urge to study that order.

You also seemed to forgot the majority of population of this empire for the first centuries was not Muslim but Christians. Christians which translated the majority of the source material for these discoveries. Islam didn't inspire them to anything

Yes, many were Christians. But don't forget this period was the dark ages for the Christian world. Christians were citizens in the empire, even if they actually helped with translations that doesn't mean they are responsible for the scientific revolution of the Islamic golden age. Muslim scientists such as Ibn al Hytham, Al Beruni, Omar Khayam, Al Farabi and so many others gets all the credit.

You also forget the cultural heritage of Central Asian which was a driving force for scientific development for centuries. If you look at the number of Muslim scientist Arabized Persians are far more represented than Arabs themselves.

Yes, many of those scientists were from Egypt, Persia, Uzbekistan and many other areas across the empire. What they have in common is that they were Muslim Scientists living in the Islamic empire. Islam is not about racism.
Again, they did acquire the knowledge from every source available, exactly as any scientist should do. And they sure built a lot on it.

Do you know that the numerals used in Europe and the Americas (the ten digits: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) are actually Arabic numerals. Fibonacci is the one who popularized the system to the western world (on 1200). Imagine our world without these numbers.

A pop-science video for children. Please..

Sure, this is exactly the idea. It's for kids who have no knowledge of the subject. Many, regardless of their age or level of knowledge may not know much knowledge of the scientific achievements/influence of the Golden age of Islam.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You are arguing that an embryo is not a leech or not identical to a leech. Of course its not. This is an irrelevant argument. The discussion is about using the word "Alaqah" for this specific stage of the human embryo. the word "Alaqah" in Arabic has multiple meanings (suspended thing, leech or blood clot). At this stage, the embryo is suspended from the womb of the mother, obtains nourishments from the blood of the mother like a leech and also has an external appearance similar to blood clot. The arabic word is very accurate for the intended meaning. If you claim it's not, then provide the correct word. if you have no clue what would be the correct word, then you should stop talking about something that you are totally ignorant about.
You are stretching in bizarre way to make a point, with no legitimacy.

1. An embryo is not "suspended" it is implanted. Not the same thing.
2. An embryo does not obtain it's nourishment by digestion of the host's blood but rather through exchange through the placenta. Not the same thing.
3. A miscarriage does, indeed, resemble a blood clot ... so here the use of the word "Alaqah" makes sense, but that is not great scientific break-through, miscarriages were commonly observed then, as now.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The argument that Earth never existed for billions of years after the BB is totaly irrelevant. The verse doesn't address any specific time frame for the development of any astronomical structures or earth. The verse specifically addresses the fact that the begining was a singularity that was broken apart (At the big bang).
What do you mean "broken apart" at the Big Bang?
 

NoorNoor

Member
What do you mean "broken apart" at the Big Bang?

Per the Big Bang theory (the most accepted theory of our origins), a single point of infinite density and extreme heat (a singularity) was broken apart possibly in a massive explosion that created the universe. However, some scientists say there was actually no explosion but rather a sudden expansion of the singularity that continues to be till now. In any case, the singularity is understood as the single origin for every thing that exists in our Universe today.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Per the Big Bang theory (the most accepted theory of our origins), a single point of infinite density and extreme heat (a singularity) was broken apart possibly in a massive explosion that created the universe.
The second part of your reply, is what every Big Bang scientists that's how it happened: an expansion of the universe, not an explosion.

As to the 1st part of your reply...

Only those (especially creationists) who didn't bother to read or they didn't understand (or both) what the BB model actually say, will confuse BB with an explosion. Much of the misunderstanding coming from the word "bang" in the name.

The Russian physicist, Alexander Friedmann, in 1922, described the universe through expansion, not an explosion.

In 1927, the Belgian physicist and monk, Georges Lemaître explained in his paper that the universe formed through expansion, not an explosion.

Another Russian physicist, George Gamow, in 1948, was another to say it wasn't an explosion, but explained that it was expansion from singularity. Gamow was to first to explain how matters developed from subatomic particles through two main processes:
  1. the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (when proton and nucleus formed ionised hydrogen or protons & neutrons plus nucleus formed 1st ionised helium; simply matters with no electrons),
  2. and the Recombination epoch (when electrons bound themselves to ionised elements). Gamow along with his students Ralph Alpher and Robert Herman, predicted in that same year the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). This Recombination epoch started 377,000 years after the Big Bang.

(CMBR wasn't discovered until 1964, by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson.)

Here, we have 3 pioneers (Friedmann, Lemaître and Gamow), who contributed to expanding universe model, and none of them stated that the BB was an explosion.

I think you are reading wrong books or webpages if you think the Big Bang was an explosion.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the phenomenon that created our universe has no equivalent in everyday experience. There is not a word that describes this incomprehensible event. We improvise: bang, explosion, expansion, breaking apart. -- they all fall short.

The closest we can hope to come to comprehending it is to study the theoretical physics and mathematics involved, which involves specialized training, and even the physicists can never hope to grok it..
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Per the Big Bang theory (the most accepted theory of our origins), a single point of infinite density and extreme heat (a singularity) was broken apart possibly in a massive explosion that created the universe. However, some scientists say there was actually no explosion but rather a sudden expansion of the singularity that continues to be till now. In any case, the singularity is understood as the single origin for every thing that exists in our Universe today.

The word "singularity" is a moniker for the sentence "what we ignore". We ignore that because we have not a valid theory that explains the behaviour of energy at these regimes (even thought it was zero at all time, including today).

And by the way, the "point" refers only to the what our observable Universe "was". We have no clue what the whole Universe "was". For all we know, it could be infinite and not reducible to a finite size back in time. And according to inflationary theory, those Big Bangs happen "all the time. Ours is just one of, possibly infinitely, many.

Ciao

- viole
 

NoorNoor

Member
The second part of your reply, is what every Big Bang scientists that's how it happened: an expansion of the universe, not an explosion.

As to the 1st part of your reply...

Only those (especially creationists) who didn't bother to read or they didn't understand (or both) what the BB model actually say, will confuse BB with an explosion. Much of the misunderstanding coming from the word "bang" in the name.

The Russian physicist, Alexander Friedmann, in 1922, described the universe through expansion, not an explosion.

In 1927, the Belgian physicist and monk, Georges Lemaître explained in his paper that the universe formed through expansion, not an explosion.

Another Russian physicist, George Gamow, in 1948, was another to say it wasn't an explosion, but explained that it was expansion from singularity. Gamow was to first to explain how matters developed from subatomic particles through two main processes:
  1. the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (when proton and nucleus formed ionised hydrogen or protons & neutrons plus nucleus formed 1st ionised helium; simply matters with no electrons),
  2. and the Recombination epoch (when electrons bound themselves to ionised elements). Gamow along with his students Ralph Alpher and Robert Herman, predicted in that same year the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). This Recombination epoch started 377,000 years after the Big Bang.

(CMBR wasn't discovered until 1964, by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson.)

Here, we have 3 pioneers (Friedmann, Lemaître and Gamow), who contributed to expanding universe model, and none of them stated that the BB was an explosion.

I think you are reading wrong books or webpages if you think the Big Bang was an explosion.

Why you think creationists would be in favor of an explosion (vs expansion)? How is that relevant to creationism? In my case, it's the opposite. Actually the language of the Quran don't support an explosion but definitely and literally supports the expansion.

What science confirmed, is the fact that the universe had a beginning (creation point). The beginning is assumed to be a singularity. The singularity is a mathematical concept that is difficult to comprehend beyond mathematics. It's something beyond our experience and beyond the laws of physics itself. What is it? Where did it came from? Why it's here or where it is? Why did it appear? We don't know. A misconception is to imagine it as point in space, there was no space, no time or matter. Where and how it existed? Its existence is something beyond the natural realm that can't be understood.

If we go back to the question "what happen at the beginning?" we don't know for sure. What we can observe and confirm is the expansion and that the universe had a beginning. What truly happened at the beginning is something beyond the ordinary. no simple words in any language can capture that event.
 
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