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Evolution and Theory of Evolution

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Ok, guys fire away! Where do you want to start? (Also, what isn't there to understand about evolution that I appently don't understand?) And by the way, some of my previous post were windups, I admit, so sorry about that. Some people can't tell when I'm joking...But just one more thing before you start, and this time I am serious, I'd just like to know why so many people who believe in evolution are so against ID or creationism, (as can be seen by many posts and remarks) as it seems to me that those two things attempt to explain the origins of life, whereas evolution only tries to explain how things moved on from that point onwards. (I know, they are two seperate things)

However, if so many evolutionists don't care about how life got started (abiogenesis), then why mock creationism or ID, as if it's the same as believing in the toothfairy etc? Seeing that scientists can't explain what happened at the start, isn't it fair game to allow such theories as put forward by creationists.

You see, and I tink this has been pointed out before, it's about world views. A creationist will look a cell and see a complex structure with it's many functions which indicate design, where as a non-creationist (call it what you will) will look at the same cell and will see something that came about by random mutations over a very long time.

O.K. I'll start. Please follow along. Here are some basics you need to know:

Evolution is not the theory that there is no God. Evolution is a specific scientific theory in a specific field of science--Biology. It answers the important questions of why there are so many different kinds of organisms on earth, and how they came to be so well-adapted to their environments. The theory is correct whether or not God created the earth, so we can proceed on the working assumption that God created all things.

Please don't try my patience by positing God as an alternative to Evolution. He isn't.

As a scientific theory, the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is a complete explanation for a complex set of phenomena, that has been upheld by the evidence and that correctly predicts and explains all known data. Proof has nothing to do with it. What we will be looking for is evidence; that is what all of science is based on.

Clear so far?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Ok, is this it? The theory of Evolution is the theory of how life evolved, and evolution is how it actually evolved.

Nope. It's like gravity. The fact of gravity: things fall down. The theory: Mass creates a curvature in the space/time continuum.

Evoluton: populations change over time. (observed fact.) The theory: explains how.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
Ok, here is my understanding of the theory. Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the belief that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic descent with modification. So, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally given enough time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, DNA, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- this is called natural selection. These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).
[/FONT]I hope I'm right on this...

An example of simple evolution. The eye of a mollusk. First you have a few light sensitive cells that can detect light and dark, then you may get another mollusk with say a cupped structre of light sensitive cells, so they can tell which direction the light is coming from. Eventually it reshapes to form something like a pin hole that enables basic focussing. Then you get a basic lens that then further leads onto a very good lens that enables good vision.

Is this where you're plagiarizing from? It's against forum rules and the law, so stop. You will never learn the truth about evolution (or anything else) from creationist websites, as they are notorious liars. There is no other way but to learn the actual science. Are you ready?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yes, I would. However, please allow me this. If someone were to show you how something in nature were to indicate, even just a possiblity of a creator, would you prepared to take that into account and disregard you scientific bias/leaning?
We can all assume for the purpose of this thread that there is a creator. That idea is in no way inconsistent with ToE. What you are arguing is something else entirely, atheism. If you want to argue atheism, you're in the wrong forum.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Here is an example of a contradictory scientific message:
A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition: So many intermediate forms have been discovered between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles, between reptiles and mammals, and along the primate lines of descent that it often is difficult to identify categorically when the transition occurs from one to another particular species.

However, National Geographic had this to say: (I actually found this on another site too and it's author uses a good illustration)
"Notice National Geographic’s remarkable admission that "the fossil record is like a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting room floor" (ibid., p. 25). While asserting that the fossil evidence proves Darwin’s theory correct, evolutionary theory asks its believers to accept a premise for which 99.9 percent of the data are missing! Ask yourself: if you tried to watch a film that contained only one out of every thousand frames, would you be able to follow the story or recognize the action that occurred? How much would you know about what really happened?"
Which is it then, are there really so many fossils in the record or not? Seems like you guys can't even agree amongst yourselves... :rolleyes:

These statements are both true. We have very, very, few fossils. Each and every one we have is consistent with ToE.

Remember, no proof--evidence. Tattoo it on your hand. Evidence, evidence, evidence.

ToE does not rest primarily on fossil evidence, and is well-supported without it. Aren't you curious what that evidence might be? But first, you have to learn what the theory is! Just let me know when you're ready.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I'll be away from the computer for a while, truth, so I'll just pose one more question for you to think about:

Do populations change over time? For example, is the chihuahua different from the ancestral wolf from which it was bred?
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
Atruthseeker, as your name is A Truth Seeker, let me ask you this, Why do you not accept the fact of our Evolution with the abundance of evidence available at your disposal?
 

Atruthseeker

Active Member
O.K. I'll start. Please follow along. Here are some basics you need to know:

Evolution is not the theory that there is no God.
Evolution is a specific scientific theory in a specific field of science--Biology. It answers the important questions of why there are so many different kinds of organisms on earth, and how they came to be so well-adapted to their environments. The theory is correct whether or not God created the earth, so we can proceed on the working assumption that God created all things.

Please don't try my patience by positing God as an alternative to Evolution. He isn't.

As a scientific theory, the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is a complete explanation for a complex set of phenomena, that has been upheld by the evidence and that correctly predicts and explains all known data. Proof has nothing to do with it. What we will be looking for is evidence; that is what all of science is based on.

Clear so far?
Perfectly clear. But can you just explain in a bit more detail what you mean by the sentence Evolution is not the theory that there is no God. Just before I go on...
 

ragordon168

Active Member
Perfectly clear. But can you just explain in a bit more detail what you mean by the sentence Evolution is not the theory that there is no God. Just before I go on...

evolution is a description of the mechanisms by which life changes. there is no mention of the origins of life in ToE.

the theory that you would have trouble with is abiogenesis as that is the one that describes a likely origin of life.

does that help?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Perfectly clear. But can you just explain in a bit more detail what you mean by the sentence Evolution is not the theory that there is no God. Just before I go on...
The theory of evolution has nothing to say about the existence of “God” one way or the other. There are Theists who accept the theory of evolution and there are Atheists who accept the theory of evolution. There are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Pagans as well as Atheists and Agnostics and others who accept the theory of evolution.

In this respect the theory of evolution is no different than any other scientific theory. The theory of gravity says nothing about the existence of “God” one way or the other, and is accepted by people of all religions (an of no religion). The same goes for germ theory, the heliocentric theory, atomic theory, quantum theory, the theory of relativity etc.
 

Atruthseeker

Active Member
fantôme profane;1869959 said:
The theory of evolution has nothing to say about the existence of “God” one way or the other.

It seems to me that the goal posts keep getting moved when it comes to the definition of evolution. It seems very flexible to fit whatever you need it to.

Also, "The theory is correct whether or not God created the earth, so we can proceed on the working assumption that God created all things." This is Deism, which is the belief that there is a God who made the world but does not influence human lives. And the ToE isn't. It does not allow for this possiblilty.

This is a quote from a book called '99% Ape - How Evolution adds up" Page 20: "The reason why natural selection was such a revolutionary idea was because it explained how living beings that contain complicated structures, which look as though they must be designed by an intelligent and skilled designer, can in fact arise without any supernatural intervention. This new concept turned on its head the argument that Darwin had read and accepted as a student. Now, the many wonderful biological mechanisms that Reverend William
Paley described in Natural Theology were no longer evidence of the divine, supernatural design, but of an entirely natural process operating without any guidance from above."
Also on page 194: "...special creation cannot be accepted as an alternative sceintific theory on an equal footing to modern evolutionary theory, and so it has no legitimate place in any science classroom."

All this from a theory which says nothing about God
? :sarcastic

In addition, if the ToE has nothing to say about a creator God, why do so many of its text books have paragraphs or chapters dedicated to disproving the existance of God? That goes for the book I took those quotes from too.:sarcastic
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate

All this from a theory which says nothing about God
? :sarcastic
Yes, basically. Science is about finding out how things work, and explaining the natural mechanisms of the world. Prior to evolutionary theory there was no explanation for complex structures in organisms. People just waved a hand and said "goddidit". Now we can look at these organisms and see how God did it.

Basically, when they say that it's a theory that avoids supernatural intervention they mean that it doesn't involve the literal finger of God reaching in and changing the universe. It does not preclude an evolution guided by God, or whatever.
 
It seems to me that the goal posts keep getting moved when it comes to the definition of evolution. It seems very flexible to fit whatever you need it to.

Not when it comes to talking about The Theory of Evolution, that has never changed only creationists try to twist it to mean different things.

Also, "The theory is correct whether or not God created the earth, so we can proceed on the working assumption that God created all things." This is Deism, which is the belief that there is a God who made the world but does not influence human lives. And the ToE isn't. It does not allow for this possiblilty.

It is fine if you want to believe a God put it all into motion and said "get on with it" but the Deist view does not mean Evolution never happened, not at all.
It means that God put all the Universal laws into place and then never got anymore involved, which rules out the Theistic Genesis account we read in the Bible, where God gets involved at every turn almost, taking Adam's rib to create Eve for example, and also the Tower of Babbel.
This is a quote from a book called '99% Ape - How Evolution adds up" Page 20: "The reason why natural selection was such a revolutionary idea was because it explained how living beings that contain complicated structures, which look as though they must be designed by an intelligent and skilled designer, can in fact arise without any supernatural intervention. This new concept turned on its head the argument that Darwin had read and accepted as a student. Now, the many wonderful biological mechanisms that Reverend William Paley described in Natural Theology were no longer evidence of the divine, supernatural design, but of an entirely natural process operating without any guidance from above."

This is just explaining that the only tenable hypothesis at the time was that a God or Gods were the driving force behind the Diversity of life, and why every creature seemed so adapted to their environment. Then came Darwin's Hypothesis, which after many years of testing became a Theory, and now the best supported Theory in the whole of Science.
Also on page 194: "...special creation cannot be accepted as an alternative sceintific theory on an equal footing to modern evolutionary theory, and so it has no legitimate place in any science classroom."
All this from a theory which says nothing about God? :sarcastic

it cannot be accepted because it has nothing to support it, not one crumb, that is why. Otheriwse you scould speculate almost anything, not the just the possibility of a Divine Creator, Dawkin's Pink Unicorn for example.
We can only go by what we can deceifer from the evidence, if God left some sort of stamp then we could start on the God Theory, but alas it has not appeared.

In addition, if the ToE has nothing to say about a creator God, why do so many of its text books have paragraphs or chapters dedicated to disproving the existance of God? That goes for the book I took those quotes from too.:sarcastic
When does it try to disprove God?
All it does is say how the life on Earth become so diverse, and why it works better than the God made everything in one day or six days Hypothesis, which at the time was the accepted Theory.
That is what Science and Scientists do, challenge Theories and come up with better Theories that better reflect reality.
Science has been doing it for hundreds of years now, and not just on how life became diverse. It's happened with Gravity, Germ Theory, the laws of motion. Your just getting hung up on Evolution because you were told otherwise by your Holy book, and cannot accept that it is wrong because that for you, is not an option.
 
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fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It seems to me that the goal posts keep getting moved when it comes to the definition of evolution. It seems very flexible to fit whatever you need it to.
I have been around on this board for quite a while now, you can freely search any of my posts. If you or anyone else can find a post where I claimed that the theory of evolution indicates that “God” does not exist I will “eat my hat” or whatever. There has been no moving of any goalposts on this issue. The theory of evolution says absolutely nothing about the existence of “God”, one way or the other. (Please pay close attention to that “one way or the other” phrase. That is the part I think you are missing)

Also, "The theory is correct whether or not God created the earth, so we can proceed on the working assumption that God created all things." This is Deism, which is the belief that there is a God who made the world but does not influence human lives. And the ToE isn't. It does not allow for this possiblilty.
You are absolutely completely wrong. The theory of evolution is absolutely compatible with Deism, as it is with Theism and Atheism. You are conflating philosophical metaphysical propositions with scientific theories.

Deism does not say “how” “God” created all things. Many deists believe that “God” created all things through naturalistic means, and created species through a process of evolution. (the same goes for theism and theists)

Now lets look at that quote you have.
"The reason why natural selection was such a revolutionary idea was because it explained how living beings that contain complicated structures, which look as though they must be designed by an intelligent and skilled designer, can in fact arise without any supernatural intervention. This new concept turned on its head the argument that Darwin had read and accepted as a student. Now, the many wonderful biological mechanisms that Reverend William Paley described in Natural Theology were no longer evidence of the divine, supernatural design, but of an entirely natural process operating without any guidance from above."
I assume that you are the one that chose which part of this quote to bold. But read the quote again, but this time read it carefully. Don’t add anything to it. Nowhere in this quote does it say anything about “God” not existing. Nowhere does it imply that “God” does not exist. It says that complicated structures “can in fact arise without any supernatural intervention” (my bold this time). It says that there is no evidence of a divine supernatural design. It does not say there is any evidence that “God” does not exist.

What if I were to say to you “the theory of gravity shows how objects can fall to the earth without supernatural intervention”? What if I were to say “the germ theory of disease explains illness without resorting to demonic procession”?

The point is that complicate structures can arise without supernatural intervention, it does not say whether or not they did. And even if they did that does not say “God” does not exist. It only indicates that perhaps “God” works through naturalistic means. Many theists and theologians do in fact believe that “God” works through naturalistic means, and in particular this is a common belief in Deism.


Also on page 194: "...special creation cannot be accepted as an alternative sceintific theory on an equal footing to modern evolutionary theory, and so it has no legitimate place in any science classroom."
All this from a theory which says nothing about God
? :sarcastic
You are right that the theory of evolution is incompatible with the idea of special creation. But it is not incompatible with the idea of “God”. The theory of evolution says nothing about the existence of “God” one way or the other. No scientific theory makes any statement as to the existence of “God”. Special creation on the other hand does make a very definite statement about the existence and behaviour of “God”, but special creation is not science.

In addition, if the ToE has nothing to say about a creator God, why do so many of its text books have paragraphs or chapters dedicated to disproving the existance of God? That goes for the book I took those quotes from too.:sarcastic
I don’t know what textbooks you are reading that have chapters dedicated to disproving “God”. This has absolutely no place in any science textbook and I would be shocked to see it. The quotes you gave us said absolutely nothing about disproving “God”. Science has nothing to do with disproving “God”. And I will say it one more time. The theory of evolution says absolutely nothing about the existence of “God” one way or the other.
 
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Atruthseeker

Active Member
Yes, basically. Science is about finding out how things work, and explaining the natural mechanisms of the world. Prior to evolutionary theory there was no explanation for complex structures in organisms. People just waved a hand and said "goddidit". Now we can look at these organisms and see how God did it.

Basically, when they say that it's a theory that avoids supernatural intervention they mean that it doesn't involve the literal finger of God reaching in and changing the universe. It does not preclude an evolution guided by God, or whatever.
That's rubbish. Have another read.
 

Atruthseeker

Active Member
fantôme profane;1870085 said:
I have been around on this board for quite a while now, you can freely search any of my posts. If you or anyone else can find a post where I claimed that the theory of evolution indicates that “God” does not exist I will “eat my hat” or whatever. There has been no moving of any goalposts on this issue. The theory of evolution says absolutely nothing about the existence of “God”, one way or the other. (Please pay close attention to that “one way or the other” phrase. That is the part I think you are missing)

You are absolutely completely wrong. The theory of evolution is absolutely compatible with Deism, as it is with Theism and Atheism. You are conflating philosophical metaphysical propositions with scientific theories.

Deism does not say “how” “God” created all things. Many deists believe that “God” created all things through naturalistic means, and created species through a process of evolution. (the same goes for theism and theists)

Now lets look at that quote you have.

I assume that you are the one that chose which part of this quote to bold. But read the quote again, but this time read it carefully. Don’t add anything to it. Nowhere in this quote does it say anything about “God” not existing. Nowhere does it imply that “God” does not exist. It says that complicated structures “can in fact arise without any supernatural intervention” (my bold this time). It says that there is no evidence of a divine supernatural design. It does not say there is any evidence that “God” does not exist.

What if I were to say to you “the theory of gravity shows how objects can fall to the earth without supernatural intervention”? What if I were to say “the germ theory of disease explains illness without resorting to demonic procession”?

The point is that complicate structures can arise without supernatural intervention, it does not say whether or not they did. And even if they did that does not say “God” does not exist. It only indicates that perhaps “God” works through naturalistic means. Many theists and theologists do in fact believe that “God” works through naturalistic means, and in particular this is a common belief in Deism.



You are right that the theory of evolution is incompatible with the idea of special creation. But it is not incompatible with the idea of “God”. The theory of evolution says nothing about the existence of “God” one way or the other. No scientific theory makes any statement as to the existence of “God”. Special creation on the other hand does make a very definite statement about the existence and behaviour of “God”, but special creation is not science.

I don’t know what textbooks you are reading that have chapters dedicated to disproving “God”. This has absolutely no place in any science textbook and I would be shocked to see it. The quotes you gave us said absolutely nothing about disproving “God”. Science has nothing to do with disproving “God”. And I will say it one more time. The theory of evolution says absolutely nothing about the existence of “God” one way or the other.
Whatever dude.:thud:
 
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