Evolution: ask your questions here

[RedOne77]

It's not so much the final result of the mutations but the subtlety of 1000's of minute unrecognizable genetic difference that would need to passed along in the majority in order to create a new species entirely that is a little far fetched for me.

It's been documented several times in the scientific literature that one mutation can create an entirely separate species, or make it so that gene flow between the original and mutated strain is severely reduced or stopped completely, eventually resulting in a new species. The mutation that results in plant polyploidy is a prime example as the new polyploid plant sometimes cannot breed with non-polyploid plants. Thus the polyploid plant is a new species.

It's even been documented in birds that a single point mutation that changes plumage color can diverge the two populations. The same type of reproductive barrier from a single mutation can be seen in other animals like snails.

Once two populations are genetically isolated it is only a matter of time before the cumulative mutations on both sides make it impossible to interbreed, creating new species.

 

[Alceste]

It's not so much the final result of the mutations but the subtlety of 1000's of minute unrecognizable genetic difference that would need to passed along in the majority in order to create a new species entirely that is a little far fetched for me.

I don't see why it should - it often happens over thousands of generations.

 

[JennySue]

That video was acutually pretty intreasting. I never thought of those things being caused by mutations. I mean in Biology last year we were just informed about stuff like Sickle Cell and were then told that mutations are bad...But the video made sense in the mutation part, and how our genes naturally change anyway and it's not necessilary bad.. I might change my opinion about science, but I'm not quite to the believing in evolution part..lol
.I actually thought about it today in school, and I think I should re-evaluate what I believe in/what I've been told. Considering the mutation part makes sense, but I've been told differently.

 

[JennySue]

I think you'll find, Jenny, that the only people who say that "all mutations are bad" are those lying creationists. You will not find any scientific source that says this.

Also think about what this would mean for Biology. Obviously, if all mutations are bad, then ToE would have to be wrong, as you figured out. So for 150 years a whole bunch of smart people have failed to notice this obvious flaw in the theory? It shows that they either don't understand or are deliberately distorting how science works. For over 50 years, every smart person who could attacked ToE from every side. It survived every challenge, made correct predictions again and again, and that was why it was accepted. They are asking you to believe that all Biologists are idiots or liars. Does that seem very likely to you?

Well we were not exactly told that Biologists are idiots or liars, its just the way we were told about mutations and other stuff that, and how it goes against God's Law. And I wouldn't quite call my Biology a lying creationist because he most likely doesn't really know the mutation thing. He also attended a private Lutheran school..

 

[painted wolf]

It's not so much the final result of the mutations but the subtlety of 1000's of minute unrecognizable genetic difference that would need to passed along in the majority in order to create a new species entirely that is a little far fetched for me.

Given that every individual can have a minimum of 100 such mutations and that each species can number from tens of thousands to millions of individuals.... such little changes add up quickly.

Each generation can have millions of little mutations waiting to be passed on to the next generation, and will be added to by millions of new mutations the next generation.

Add that to the fact that the majority of species reproduce in vast numbers and you can get pretty dramatic changes in relatively short periods of time.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

That video was acutually pretty intreasting. I never thought of those things being caused by mutations. I mean in Biology last year we were just informed about stuff like Sickle Cell and were then told that mutations are bad...But the video made sense in the mutation part, and how our genes naturally change anyway and it's not necessilary bad.. I might change my opinion about science, but I'm not quite to the believing in evolution part..lol
.I actually thought about it today in school, and I think I should re-evaluate what I believe in/what I've been told. Considering the mutation part makes sense, but I've been told differently.

What is really cool... is that sickle cell isn't simply a 'bad mutation'. It can be good under the right circumstances.

Sickle Cell is caused by a mutation that requires two copies of the mutant gene (called Homozygous) when you have two copies you get sick. If you have just one copy of the gene (called Heterozygous) you actually are better off than if you don't have any copy at all. One copy of the gene gives you resistance to Malaria, changing just enough of your blood cells to make the parasite unable to hide from your immune system.

This is why it's hard to simply label a mutation as "bad" or "good", a lot of it depends on the situation. Situations have a habit of changing.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

Well we were not exactly told that Biologists are idiots or liars, its just the way we were told about mutations and other stuff that, and how it goes against God's Law. And I wouldn't quite call my Biology a lying creationist because he most likely doesn't really know the mutation thing. He also attended a private Lutheran school..

What I'm saying is, if what they're saying were true, then all Biologists would have to be idiots or liars, or why wouldn't they have noticed something so obvious?

 

[Ace7X]

1.Ever wonder what the Theory of Evolution really says? 2.What evidence it's based on? 3.How science knows it's correct? 4.What its implications are? Ask your questions here, and the knowledgeable members will try to answer them.

where are the answers to your questions?

 

[Autodidact]

where are the answers to your questions?

The questions I asked in the OP?

 

[Ace7X]

The questions I asked in the OP?

yes Autodidact

 

[painted wolf]

Generally in any decent science journal or introductory college Biology text.

wa:do

 

[JennySue]

What is really cool... is that sickle cell isn't simply a 'bad mutation'. It can be good under the right circumstances.

Sickle Cell is caused by a mutation that requires two copies of the mutant gene (called Homozygous) when you have two copies you get sick. If you have just one copy of the gene (called Heterozygous) you actually are better off than if you don't have any copy at all. One copy of the gene gives you resistance to Malaria, changing just enough of your blood cells to make the parasite unable to hide from your immune system.

This is why it's hard to simply label a mutation as "bad" or "good", a lot of it depends on the situation. Situations have a habit of changing.

wa:do

0.o I did not know that either...

 

[Valjean]

Well we were not exactly told that Biologists are idiots or liars, its just the way we were told about mutations and other stuff that, and how it goes against God's Law. And I wouldn't quite call my Biology a lying creationist because he most likely doesn't really know the mutation thing. He also attended a private Lutheran school..

Keep in mind that a few hundred years ago the fact that the Earth "moved" around the sun, rather than vice versa, was considered heresy as well.
Most Christians find no discrepancy between God's law and evolution.

 

[JennySue]

Keep in mind that a few hundred years ago the fact that the Earth "moved" around the sun, rather than vice versa, was considered heresy as well.
Most Christians find no discrepancy between God's law and evolution.

Whoa, I did not notice I wrote that part about God's Law...Sorry about that, I literally did not notice I put that there....:sorry1:

 

[fantome profane]

Well we were not exactly told that Biologists are idiots or liars, its just the way we were told about mutations and other stuff that, and how it goes against God's Law. And I wouldn't quite call my Biology a lying creationist because he most likely doesn't really know the mutation thing. He also attended a private Lutheran school..

That is quite amazing if what you are saying is true. What you are saying is that your biology teacher doesn’t know much about biology. How did he get the job as a biology teacher? How does he do the job as a biology teacher? I don’t doubt that what you are saying is true, but it is quite amazing.

 

[RedOne77]

That is quite amazing if what you are saying is true. What you are saying is that your biology teacher doesn’t know much about biology. How did he get the job as a biology teacher? How does he do the job as a biology teacher? I don’t doubt that what you are saying is true, but it is quite amazing.

I'm actually not too surprised, I was taught chemistry by someone who didn't understand chemistry, and this was a public school. I don't know how private schools operate, but if you have a 4 year degree in any "major" subject (science, history, math, english), with a teaching certificate you are qualified to teach any of the "major" subjects in public school. So you can get an English teacher as a science teacher if you need more science teachers.

If Jenny goes to a religious school, especially if she is in the South or a rural area, I wouldn't be surprised if her biology teacher is sucked into creationism or ID. I once met a guy on a forum who is a retired science teacher and was an adamant YEC.

 

[Alceste]

That video was acutually pretty intreasting. I never thought of those things being caused by mutations. I mean in Biology last year we were just informed about stuff like Sickle Cell and were then told that mutations are bad...But the video made sense in the mutation part, and how our genes naturally change anyway and it's not necessilary bad.. I might change my opinion about science, but I'm not quite to the believing in evolution part..lol
.I actually thought about it today in school, and I think I should re-evaluate what I believe in/what I've been told. Considering the mutation part makes sense, but I've been told differently.

It seems you are learning untrue things at school. Starting with the inexplicable fact they've named the religion class you refer to "biology". We all learn a few untrue things at school, even those of us who are not in religious schools. My secular school was terrible with things like the causes of wars, for example. What encourages me is seeing that you have maintained your inquisitive mind and are questioning what you've been told. So, at least someone, somewhere seems to have taught you how to think for yourself. My suspicion is that you won't have much trouble with evolution once you do a bit more research on your own.

 

[RedOne77]

That video was acutually pretty intreasting. I never thought of those things being caused by mutations. I mean in Biology last year we were just informed about stuff like Sickle Cell and were then told that mutations are bad...But the video made sense in the mutation part, and how our genes naturally change anyway and it's not necessilary bad.. I might change my opinion about science, but I'm not quite to the believing in evolution part..lol
.I actually thought about it today in school, and I think I should re-evaluate what I believe in/what I've been told. Considering the mutation part makes sense, but I've been told differently.

It is hard to go against what you're told, especially when it comes from authority figures like teachers. One way to get a decent idea of what the evidence supports without going too deep into it, is finding out what the experts think and support.

From here: Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation
If you go down to the last chart, you will see the views of scientists broken into 3 categories: creationism, theistic evolution, naturalistic evolution. Creationism is only at 5%, with 95% accepting evolution (one type believes that God guided the process, the other type does not). Other data on what scientists think show us that those who have advanced degrees in biology, instead of other degrees not directly related to evolution like astronomy or engineering, give an even higher percentage of acceptance when it comes to evolution. In fact, over 99% of biologists accept evolution! "Project Steve" and "A scientific decent from Darwin" show that roughly 99.98% of scientists accept evolution.

And it's not just scientists, many clergy also support evolution too. Clergy Letter Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same guy who did the video I posted earlier has a lot more like it, each dealing with a different topic about the creation-evolution debate. If you have some free time you might want to check out his other videos on youtube.

 

[Valjean]

Whoa, I did not notice I wrote that part about God's Law...Sorry about that, I literally did not notice I put that there....:sorry1:

I don't see why you're apologizing, JS. The fact that your school held that God's law was the gold standard against which all things were evaluated is a telling point. Facts were molded to conform to preconceived beliefs, rather than beliefs being determined by facts.
I was merely pointing out that "God's Law" has been subject to innumerable and constantly changing interpretations for as long as there's been a church.:yes:

That is quite amazing if what you are saying is true. What you are saying is that your biology teacher doesn’t know much about biology. How did he get the job as a biology teacher? How does he do the job as a biology teacher? I don’t doubt that what you are saying is true, but it is quite amazing.

Good point, Ghastly. Evolution's the foundation and framework for the whole science of biology. Without it the science would be hardly more than an exercise in cataloging.
Biology without evolution theory is like chemistry without atomic theory.

 

[painted wolf]

Egads I had the worst Chemistry professor(s) in high school. The first one was so lax about safety she caused the injury of several students and the deaths of several classroom animals.... and when people (me) complained they found themselves accused of theft and with no recorded grades. This teacher didn't last the term.

The replacement was nice, but couldn't teach her way out of a wet paper sack. It's all but impossible to learn an equation when the teacher changes it over and over because they got it wrong.

Now, both teachers knew the subject... but they didn't know how to teach. I'm still not very good at it myself, but that is why I plan to get a lot of practice as I earn my degrees.

wa:do