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Evolution based on random mutations and natural selection

atpollard

Active Member
And what is the best environment for marine fish ? water or land
Why to adapt to land while living in water ?
Actually, let's think it through.

IF life started in water (which seems at least plausible since we are made of so much water).
THEN it seems reasonable that there were both plants and animals in the water.
Plants 'eat' sunlight and animals eat plants (some animals may or may not eat other animals at this point, so let's leave them alone for now).

As a sun eating plant, the empty LAND offers some advantages (more sunlight food is available above the water than in it and more nutrients are available in soil than floating free in the water).
So some random aquatic plant named Bob, has adapted to living right at the edge of mean high water. Bob lives almost exactly half of his life in the water and half of his life in the wet mud at the shore. The wet mud is crowded with plants fighting for every inch of space. Just beyond Bob's reach is the land that almost never floods where no plants live. One day Bob Jr spreads his seed and takes a shot at the open space beyond mean high tide. Bob Jr is a little thirsty, but it turns out that he can survive. Fast forward some long time and the decedents of Bob Jr cover vast swathes of the land that was free for the taking with very little competition and lots of delicious sunlight.

Fast forward some time and along comes Charlie the Fish.
By now, there are lots of fish that eat other fish, so the shallow water offers more food and fewer predators.
Unfortunately, a lot of other fish had the same idea, so the shallow water is crowded and competition for food is tough ... and just beyond reach are all of those plants that live on the land.
Now everyone laughed at Charlie because he still had that old lung to help him grab some air when all of the hottest and newest fish in the deep had upgraded to gills and a buoyancy bladder. That's what forced Charlie out of the deep water and close to the shore in the first place ... he was being out-competed in the deep water by more specialized designs.
But all of the other fish were laughing out the other side of their gills when the saw that Charlie could get right up to the water's edge and eat the plants that other fish could not reach.
Some of Charlies kids could reach even further onto the land than Charlie, and natural selection granted more food, fewer predators and more offspring to the decedents of Charlie who were better on land than water. Eventually, his decedents were born in the water and were able to live completely on the land.

The question is not How, but Why.
Was it all random chance? Bob Jr and Charlie Jr were just really lucky.
Did a Creator step in for a 'day' and say 'Let Bob Jr cover the land with plants, and it was so'?
Did a Creator step in for another 'day' and say 'Let Charlie Jr cover the land with animals, and it was so'?

Biology cannot answer Why, that is not Biology's job.
Theology can answer Why, but tends to be a little fuzzy on How.
I have questions about some of the details of How, but the process seems far too similar to what can still be observed in any disturbed field that transitions from the first small tough weeds and grases to a dense forest over several decades. I have seen how life works. How it struggles to fill every disturbed patch of dirt.
I have seen trees that self-hybridize without any human effort (the bane of my plant identification existence).
It is not an unreasonable leap to imagine that more time could yield more dramatic results.

In my opinion, adaptation does not prove that there is no God.
My faith is not built upon a flat earth, or the sun orbiting the earth, or the necessity of a 6000 year old universe.
If God exists NOW (and I find compelling evidence that He does), then God existed THEN, and the 'How' of creation is only an interesting footnote compared to the 'Who' of the story of Creation.

[I will have undoubtedly gotten some of the details wrong ... so what ... the underlying point still stands. How does not negate Who and Why.]
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
True, evolution doesn't prove there is no god. My biology teachers were (most of them) believing Christians. Accepting evolution proved no threat to their faith.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Where did they evolve before being Amphibious fish, where they on the land or in the sea before evolving into Amphibious fish? who were their ancestors ?
The development of land dwelling tetrapods are of marine animals that most likely lived in shallow waters with tides that would possibly leave them stranded in pools of water. In order to survive these animals had to go over very shallow or even dry piece of land for short distances. This is possible even for fish with no limbs and had to do so by simply flopping around. However those with slightly better coordination and slightly better ability to move using their fins managed to survive a higher number of times. If it was a 1/10 chance for a normal fish now it is a 1/5 chance for the modified fish. Then continually the mutations favor those that develop stronger and more coordinated fins for maneuvering on land. Eventually they would have gotten to the point where going across small bits of land was no problem and could do so freely. Eventually from that point some began to stay out of the water longer and longer and longer till eventually we reach our first semi-aquatic species.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Would you say that we've evolved as life has evolved?
Would we be dissociated with evolution in a sense that we just happened to arrive at the pinnacle of intelligent beings/creation without being any of those things ourselves at some point? Ie: microbe, fish, dinosaur, ape, etc.

Have we, ourselves as we are now, skipped over every other life form and just arrived at the top of the evolution ladder?
Whoa!!! Hold-up. Where did you get the erroneous idea that we are the "top of the evolutionary ladder"? Human beings are certainly still evolving, and will continue to evolve in the future. What would make you think otherwise?
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Whoa!!! Hold-up. Where did you get the erroneous idea that we are the "top of the evolutionary ladder"? Human beings are certainly still evolving, and will continue to evolve in the future. What would make you think otherwise?

In this present time, intelligent human beings are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. If there is 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now... And the human being is still around, we would still be human beings, and at the top of the evolutionary ladder. The bottom of the evolution ladder would be the depths of Sheol, microbe and under water life.
There is physical evolution and there is conscious/awareness evolution. Intelligent human beings are not currently living as if they are intellgent, collectively.

The two things that can put intelligent human beings to physical extinction at any given moment would be Eta Carinae, and ourselves... Nuclear weapons.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
In this present time, intelligent human beings are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. If there is 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now... And the human being is still around, we would still be human beings, and at the top of the evolutionary ladder. The bottom of the evolution ladder would be the depths of Sheol, microbe and under water life.
There is no "evolutionary ladder." That is an Aristotelian model that has not been taken seriously in a long time. All organisms have had the same amount of time to evolve, no organism is "higher" or "lower" than any other.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
In this present time, intelligent human beings are at the top of the evolutionary ladder. If there is 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now... And the human being is still around, we would still be human beings, and at the top of the evolutionary ladder. The bottom of the evolution ladder would be the depths of Sheol, microbe and under water life.
There is physical evolution and there is conscious/awareness evolution. Intelligent human beings are not currently living as if they are intellgent, collectively.

The two things that can put intelligent human beings to physical extinction at any given moment would be Eta Carinae, and ourselves... Nuclear weapons.
Currently we are at the top of the ladder. But, evolution is still taking place in human beings. So, humans like us now will not be considered to be at the top of the ladder in 1000 years. But, I get your point that humans 1000 years from now most likely will be.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Currently we are at the top of the ladder. But, evolution is still taking place in human beings. So, humans like us now will not be considered to be at the top of the ladder in 1000 years. But, I get your point that humans 1000 years from now most likely will be.
What ladder?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What features figure in this 'ladder' ranking?
How am I any more complex or 'evolved' than my cat?
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
There is no "evolutionary ladder." That is an Aristotelian model that has not been taken seriously in a long time. All organisms have had the same amount of time to evolve, no organism is "higher" or "lower" than any other.

Phylogenesis is a hypothesis with no way to measure it's accuracy with physical evidence.

It's the same as trying to prove the term "God" to another with physical evidence.

I am aware of how the human mind has a tendency to always think left to right, and beginning to end, bottom to top, and its many delusions but in this case I can't use the opposite... It would be like saying that the microbe evolved from the human body, working right to left and end to beginning and top to bottom.

More-so referring to not just the physical body, but to the mind also in the "present" time of life.

Phylogenesis would have to be a belief.

Have you ever had that deep conscious awareness resonate through you when it comes to phylogenesis and its truth, even though it's a hypothesis? That glimpse of oneness and connection with the physical DNA tree of every sense of "life" form and time? The phylogenesis inner experience. You must have to be bold about an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

From a physical standpoint, I agree, same amount of time and none higher or lower. All is one and an extension of each. I agree with the unsubstantiated hypothesis.

The rational thinking and aware mind is what makes the human "being" and unique from all other physical life forms.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Phylogenesis is a hypothesis with no way to measure it's accuracy with physical evidence.
Demonstrably wrong. Phylogenesis is conformed through so many different sources that it can simply be considered to be "fact" in layman's terms.
It's the same as trying to prove the term "God" to another with physical evidence.
It is simple to prove god with physical evidence, such attempts fail because there is not god, or perhaps because god hates amputees.
I am aware of how the human mind has a tendency to always think left to right, and beginning to end, bottom to top, and its many delusions but in this case I can't use the opposite... It would be like saying that the microbe evolved from the human body, working right to left and end to beginning and top to bottom.
Thats not one side to the other, that's ignorant to stupid.
More-so referring to not just the physical body, but to the mind also in the "present" time of life.
An equally unsupportable construct. There is a brain with two helisphers, but there is no "mind."
Phylogenesis would have to be a belief.
No.
Have you ever had that deep conscious awareness resonate through you when it comes to phylogenesis and its truth, even though it's a hypothesis? That glimpse of oneness and connection with the physical DNA tree of every sense of "life" form and time? The phylogenesis inner experience. You must have to be bold about an unsubstantiated hypothesis.
New age word salad, no meaning in it or reality to it.
From a physical standpoint, I agree, same amount of time and none higher or lower. All is one and an extension of each. I agree with the unsubstantiated hypothesis.
Demonstrated and elevated to the level of Scientific Theory.
The rational thinking and aware mind is what makes the human "being" and unique from all other physical life forms.
Dream on in your illusion of superiority.
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
Demonstrably wrong. Phylogenesis is conformed through so many different sources that it can simply be considered to be "fact" in layman's terms.

It's the same as trying to prove the term "God" to another with physical evidence.
It is simple to prove god with physical evidence, such attempts fail because there is not god, or perhaps because god hates amputees.

Thats not one side to the other, that's ignorant to stupid.

An equally unsupportable construct. There is a brain with two helisphers, but there is no "mind."

No.
New age word salad, no meaning in it or reality to it.

Demonstrated and elevated to the level of Scientific Theory.

Dream on in your illusion of superiority.[/QUOTE]

"Dream on in your illusion of superiority."
That's an assumption, which is your own illusion. I wasn't aware "unique" meant "superior"... Who is having the illusion?

"that's not one side to the other, that's ignorant to stupid."
They are the same then?

There is no "mind."
That's bold... Show your work.

"new age." Define please, that would be one side to other other... "Old age" would have to be part of your definition.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You're ducking the real issues:

1. Phylogenesis is extremely well supported.

2. The 'mind" is not demonstrated, it's you claim so you have the burden or proof.

3. "Have you ever had that deep conscious awareness resonate through you when it comes to phylogenesis and its truth, even though it's a hypothesis? That glimpse of oneness and connection with the physical DNA tree of every sense of "life" form and time? The phylogenesis inner experience. You must have to be bold about an unsubstantiated hypothesis" is, to all appearances, new age pap with neither substance, supportable concepts or clear meaning, again, phylogenesis is not a hypothesis, it is extremely well supported.

4. You're hedging on "The rational thinking and aware mind is what makes the human "being" and unique from all other physical life forms' expressing "superiority."
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Seyorni said:
What features figure in this 'ladder' ranking?
How am I any more complex or 'evolved' than my cat?

A mind and a mind.
Neither my mind nor my body are any more complex than my cat's. The layouts are different, the capabilities are different, but neither of us is more complex or 'highly evolved' than the other.

Humans have a lot of mirror neurons, a lot of grey matter and language. Other animals have different physical and mental abilities, some way beyond our own capabilities.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Seyorni said:
What features figure in this 'ladder' ranking?
How am I any more complex or 'evolved' than my cat?


Neither my mind nor my body are any more complex than my cat's. The layouts are different, the capabilities are different, but neither of us is more complex or 'highly evolved' than the other.

Humans have a lot of mirror neurons, a lot of grey matter and language. Other animals have different physical and mental abilities, some way beyond our own capabilities.

No comment.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
You're ducking the real issues:

1. Phylogenesis is extremely well supported.

2. The 'mind" is not demonstrated, it's you claim so you have the burden or proof.

3. "Have you ever had that deep conscious awareness resonate through you when it comes to phylogenesis and its truth, even though it's a hypothesis? That glimpse of oneness and connection with the physical DNA tree of every sense of "life" form and time? The phylogenesis inner experience. You must have to be bold about an unsubstantiated hypothesis" is, to all appearances, new age pap with neither substance, supportable concepts or clear meaning, again, phylogenesis is not a hypothesis, it is extremely well supported.

4. You're hedging on "The rational thinking and aware mind is what makes the human "being" and unique from all other physical life forms' expressing "superiority."

1. From a physical pov, those in full support at this current time would have a "strong belief" and nothing more. An "assumption" of truth. There are still problems with this hypothesis. Essentially, phylogenesis, whether true or false, why does it matter? Why is it a "real issue?"

2. Many mathematical and scientific laws would have to be broken, without being intelligently evolved enough to even know it, or be aware of this, to support an "all physical" environment, internally and externally. Many mathematical and scientific laws were derived off of using consciousness, the ego prevents this awareness.

3. New age wasn't defined. Whether one is aware or not, phylogenesis would be supporting a family tree, and that all is one, and all would be an extension of one another. Scientific/physical form of oneness. You would be saying something is true and then denying its truth at the same time. You are also denying being conscious, inability to experience, and inability to be aware. How do you know it's true, well supported if you are not conscious, don't have that inner awareness or experience in your brain?

4. Only thing being expressed is your own assumption still. Assumption is a disease and a delusion. I say unique. You say superior.

Unique: "being the only one of its kind, unlike anything else."

Superior: "1.
higher in station, rank, degree, importance.
2.
above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence."

Assumption: "1.
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
1. From a physical pov, those in full support at this current time would have a "strong belief" and nothing more. An "assumption" of truth. There are still problems with this hypothesis. Essentially, phylogenesis, whether true or false, why does it matter? Why is it a "real issue?"
Because the Aristotelian ladder of progress view is two millennia old, does not mirror basic Darwinian principals and is dead wrong.
2. Many mathematical and scientific laws would have to be broken, without being intelligently evolved enough to even know it, or be aware of this, to support an "all physical" environment, internally and externally. Many mathematical and scientific laws were derived off of using consciousness, the ego prevents this awareness.
No laws need be broken and there is not evidence of anything else. The "mind" like the "soul" appears to be an artifact of the internal communication of the brain, there is no basis for it except the time delay between the two hemispheres.
3. New age wasn't defined. Whether one is aware or not, phylogenesis would be supporting a family tree, and that all is one, and all would be an extension of one another. Scientific/physical form of oneness. You would be saying something is true and then denying its truth at the same time. You are also denying being conscious, inability to experience, and inability to be aware. How do you know it's true, well supported if you are not conscious, don't have that inner awareness or experience in your brain?
No, you are playing semantic games as your are with (4) below.
4. Only thing being expressed is your own assumption still. Assumption is a disease and a delusion. I say unique. You say superior.

Unique: "being the only one of its kind, unlike anything else."

Superior: "1.
higher in station, rank, degree, importance.
2.
above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence."

Assumption: "1.
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis.
 
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