Evolution based on random mutations and natural selection

[LuisDantas]

And for how long they're doing so ? search again

It seems to me that by now it is plenty time for you to do your research instead of implying that others need to. Maybe you can at least offer your own answers?

 

[Kuzcotopia]

If not required then why evolved at first place.

It seems to me that by now it is plenty time for you to do your research instead of implying that others need to. Maybe you can at least offer your own answers?

Can I ask a question?

In the US (can't speak for anywhere else), it is common for a proportion of the population to get a flu shot every year.

The most common virus' that cause the flu are collected each year, and their vaccines are made.

Clearly, new flu viruses are a threat every year, as those that are not affected by the previous years' vaccine multiply to attack us again next year.

Similarly, if you have a cockroach infestation, and you call an exterminator, they will be using different mixes of poisons every year or couple of years.

Generally, most cockroaches die for the poison, but those who are resistant tend to reproduce, often continuing the infestation.

This IS natural selection, which means it is evolution. That really cannot be disputed. But my question is this:

If the evolution of the flu and roaches are guided intelligently by a supernatural being, then why would he keep evolving these things to plague us every year?

How do you answer this, based on the perspectives you've demonstrated
For far?

 

[LuisDantas]

Can I ask a question?

In the US (can't speak for anywhere else), it is common for a proportion of the population to get a flu shot every year.

Same here. I take them regularly.

The most common virus' that cause the flu are collected each year, and their vaccines are made.

Clearly, new flu viruses are a threat every year, as those that are not affected by the previous years' vaccine multiply to attack us again next year.

Similarly, if you have a cockroach infestation, and you call an exterminator, they will be using different mixes of poisons every year or couple of years.

Generally, most cockroaches die for the poison, but those who are resistant tend to reproduce, often continuing the infestation.

This IS natural selection, which means it is evolution. That really cannot be disputed. But my question is this:

If the evolution of the flu and roaches are guided intelligently by a supernatural being, then why would he keep evolving these things to plague us every year?

How do you answer this, based on the perspectives you've demonstrated
For far?

I take it that you are asking FearGod?

 

[FearGod]

Can I ask a question?

In the US (can't speak for anywhere else), it is common for a proportion of the population to get a flu shot every year.

The most common virus' that cause the flu are collected each year, and their vaccines are made.

Clearly, new flu viruses are a threat every year, as those that are not affected by the previous years' vaccine multiply to attack us again next year.

Similarly, if you have a cockroach infestation, and you call an exterminator, they will be using different mixes of poisons every year or couple of years.

Generally, most cockroaches die for the poison, but those who are resistant tend to reproduce, often continuing the infestation.

This IS natural selection, which means it is evolution. That really cannot be disputed. But my question is this:

If the evolution of the flu and roaches are guided intelligently by a supernatural being, then why would he keep evolving these things to plague us every year?

How do you answer this, based on the perspectives you've demonstrated
For far?

I have the answer in my faith but discussing it here with you is useless, we call them the unseen evil or Jin and they indeed can harm humans, the prophet said that they mostly come to humans through air passage and mouth, one of his advice to protect the food of being exposed as the unseen organisms may find their way to it and harm you.

Today we are able to see them but not by the naked eye.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wouldn't that mean that human medicine, and specifically immunization shots, somehow affect the Djinn? Despite never really even considering their hypothetical existence while they are researched, developed and tested?

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I take it that you are asking FearGod?

Yessir! But my questions were based on you suggestion. Quite a good suggestion!

 

[Vishvavajra]

So we're back to disease being caused by evil spirits instead of the germ theory of medicine, eh? No wonder these people oppose the theory of evolution: they want to take us back to medieval times when people had nothing but superstition to lean on.

Funny, I used to think that Evangelical Protestants were the biggest willfully-ignorant deniers of science, but this forum has made me think that Muslims deserve that dubious honor. And it's a shame too, since there was a major flowering of scientific knowledge and intellectual honesty in the Islamic world once upon a time. But I guess that's well over now. Now it seems all you hear is fundamentalism and the elevation of superstition above reason. And, worst of all, calling other people stupid for not viewing the world like someone from 1300 years ago.

Better stop typing things into the glowing box. You never know when the evil spirits that live in it will give you AIDS.

(My best Muslim friend would be so ashamed of these folks if I showed her this stuff. She might throw something.)

 

[FearGod]

Wouldn't that mean that human medicine, and specifically immunization shots, somehow affect the Djinn? Despite never really even considering their hypothetical existence while they are researched, developed and tested?

Yes of course medicine and treatment will help but the best is Prevention.

 

[FearGod]

So we're back to disease being caused by evil spirits instead of the germ theory of medicine, eh? No wonder these people oppose the theory of evolution: they want to take us back to medieval times when people had nothing but superstition to lean on.

Funny, I used to think that Evangelical Protestants were the biggest willfully-ignorant deniers of science, but this forum has made me think that Muslims deserve that dubious honor. And it's a shame too, since there was a major flowering of scientific knowledge and intellectual honesty in the Islamic world once upon a time. But I guess that's well over now. Now it seems all you hear is fundamentalism and the elevation of superstition above reason. And, worst of all, calling other people stupid for not viewing the world like someone from 1300 years ago.

Better stop typing things into the glowing box. You never know when the evil spirits that live in it will give you AIDS.

I had already said discussing it with you is useless because you think life came from the inanimate stone, that is how you think of the germs or yourself or the AIDS virus..etc, you don't think of them as life which is good and evil, your faith is in the stone, please i'm not discussing here religion but only i answered the question, it isn't your business of what i want to believe, my religion isn't yours and i hope will never be.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I don't believe life came from inanimate stone (and for what it's worth, I happen to be familiar with the Surah you're alluding to there). You're the one projecting your ideas onto other people. If you really wanted to learn how science works, you'd go to school. Your mind was made up before you even started the thread. You're here to make yourself feel superior by beating straw men.

 

[FearGod]

I don't believe life came from inanimate stone (and for what it's worth, I happen to be familiar with the Surah you're alluding to there). You're the one projecting your ideas onto other people. If you really wanted to learn how science works, you'd go to school. Your mind was made up before you even started the thread. You're here to make yourself feel superior by beating straw men.

Whereas you don't believe that bacteria and virus are bad living things ?
It is up to you what you want to believe and it is up to me what i want to believe, i'm not interesting in your argument, my religion isn't yours, why you need to discuss it with me.

Again i answered a question, take it or leave it.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I have the answer in my faith but discussing it here with you is useless, we call them the unseen evil or Jin and they indeed can harm humans, the prophet said that they mostly come to humans through air passage and mouth, one of his advice to protect the food of being exposed as the unseen organisms may find their way to it and harm you.

Today we are able to see them but not by the naked eye.

I wanted to learn more about Jinn. Is this a good resource to use? If it's not, and you have one that you think aligns better with your views, please share it. I'll replace what you choose with the article I found.

The World of the Jinn (All parts) - The Religion of Islam

By the way, if there are specific claims you don't agree with, I'd like to know what they are. I read it all myself , and whether I agree or not, it was fascinating to learn.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Whereas you don't believe that bacteria and virus are bad living things ?

The existence of those things isn't a question of religious belief. We can see them under microscopes and keep collections of them. Bacteria definitely qualify as living things, viruses provisionally so (on that microcosmic scale, "life" is not so easy to define). Whether they are bad is another question entirely, and not one that can be so easily answered. However, the ones that cause disease are regarded as bad from a human perspective.

Both bacteria and viruses are alive in the sense that they have genetic material that they use to reproduce themselves, although viruses are parasitic and can only reproduce by invading a cell. Both are also very clear examples of how evolution works, since their life cycles are so rapid and genetic mutation and natural selection can take effect in relatively short order. None of that is the least bit controversial and can be seen with people's own eyes. Religion has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes of course medicine and treatment will help but the best is Prevention.

The point is, scientific research works, has evidence, is based on evidence.

Yet somehow it is not to be viewed as reliable or accurate? Why?

Do you even have a reason to doubt that God meant for Evolution to be discovered and understood by human beings? Any reason at all?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Whereas you don't believe that bacteria and virus are bad living things ?
It is up to you what you want to believe and it is up to me what i want to believe, i'm not interesting in your argument, my religion isn't yours, why you need to discuss it with me.

Again i answered a question, take it or leave it.

The reason we are discussing these things with you, is because you started this discussion.
If you are not interested in what we say, why did you start the thread?

We are certainly not attacking your religion, as many of the great modern scientists and medical researchers are Muslim and work along side their western counterparts..
We will leave you to argue with them on religious matters.

We do not choose what we want to believe, We believe what is demonstrated scientifically to be the truth. Religion must always work within the truth.
There are not two truths about these things.

 

[SomeRandom]

And for how long they're doing so ? search again

Quite a long time it seems. As much as 300 or so million years ago.
You could just search this yourself instead of being lazy, you know? It's pretty easy today. Or better yet, seek out a respected Biologist and ask them directly. Or even a Paleontologist.
Just some friendly advice.
Here, some magical links!

Evolution | Full text | Do mudskippers and lungfishes elucidate the early evolution of four-limbed vertebrates?

Evolution of fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CEwQFjAJ&url=http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229925227_Adaptations_of_amphibious_fish_for_surviving_life_out_of_water&ei=oi0eVcSaB4328QW9_oIg&usg=AFQjCNFXrbZdqd1JgUEh1V8EmueE6CuB9Q&sig2=Q-7Jig3fEnzgwDSz3H65sA&bvm=bv.89947451,d.dGc

Also there were some ancient (meaning a hell of a long time ago) fish that breathed through a lung instead of gills. Also known as "Lung Fish." Many are extinct now, but some species are around today. Some species have remained unchanged throughout at least 100 million years or so, making them (as the boffins like to say) "Living Fossils."'

The Queensland lungfish, Neoceratodus forsteri, is endemic to Australia.[9] Fossil records of this group date back 380 million years

Ceratodus.com

Lungfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, mate. I ain't a biologist, that is not my area of expertise. So my explanations would be inaccurate at best. So why the hell are you asking this on a forum about religious education. Go to a flipping biology website! For if you want information about a specific scientific or intellectual discipline, the easiest and best method is to go to those in that particular discipline to begin with. One doesn't ask a plumber to explain medical science, just as one doesn't go to the Doctor for an explanation on architecture.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I wanted to learn more about Jinn. Is this a good resource to use? If it's not, and you have one that you think aligns better with your views, please share it. I'll replace what you choose with the article I found.

The World of the Jinn (All parts) - The Religion of Islam

By the way, if there are specific claims you don't agree with, I'd like to know what they are. I read it all myself , and whether I agree or not, it was fascinating to learn.

@FearGod , you want me to stick with this interpretation of what the Jinn are or would you prefer something else? Hadn't heard. Thanks!

 

[FearGod]

@FearGod , you want me to stick with this interpretation of what the Jinn are or would you prefer something else? Hadn't heard. Thanks!

Sorry my friend, i'm really overloaded with replies that i missed some.

What we know about jinn that they can't be seen, unseen creatures, they can take several forms and shapes, some will try to hurt humans.

Some details about them came with some hadith and you can't trust all of them as some were false or fabricated.

But the important points can be in short, Jinns can be unseen and can find their way to pollute foods and hence the advice of the prophet to keep food protected from them, they can pass from air and hence the prophet asked to put our hands on our mouth when sneezing as to prevent it from spreading, he asked not to visit a polluted area with a spreading disease and those living in the area should not leave it, he said the harmful snakes are a form of the Jinn and not all snakes are harmful ones....etc

You may find several articles about the Jinn and what kind of creatures are they but i don't have a specific one but in general they're unseen, they like dirties, they can take several forms, some are harmful and they can cause disease and even they can cause someone to go crazy that no medicine can even cure.

 

[leibowde84]

Endless of questions can be asked and answers are always a guess work for what had happened billions of years ago but they agree that no intelligence were required or any kind of design but it just happened to be so according to the circumstances and the events, they don't even dare to call it coincidences, chances and accidents because it'll show how stupid their theory is, and if we say mutations are random then they'll say "but natural selection isn't", if we ask why we can't see any change of kinds, then their answer will be "it takes millions of years for that to happen".

This thread is made as to ask questions for the evolutionists and hope the creationists (if they still do exist) to share their questions and ideas.

I start with one known question , hope to have a healthy argument than silly comments.

How the fish survived on land for millions of years before having legs ? fishes don't need legs in water but only fins, why the fish need to leave the water to live on land, was it due to curiosity or searching for foods ? what forced the fish to leaves its environment to entirely a different one ? humans lived close to the sea for millions of years will they eventually evolve into fishes (reverse evolution if i may say), i think human won't evolve into fishes regardless of the time they can live in the sea because it isn't their environment and they'll die before being evolved to a fish (like creature).

The first fish that came ashore already had legs of some kind, most likely. How does that not make sense?

 

[ArtieE]

Endless of questions can be asked and answers are always a guess work for what had happened billions of years ago but they agree that no intelligence were required or any kind of design but it just happened to be so according to the circumstances and the events, they don't even dare to call it coincidences, chances and accidents because it'll show how stupid their theory is, and if we say mutations are random then they'll say "but natural selection isn't", if we ask why we can't see any change of kinds, then their answer will be "it takes millions of years for that to happen".

This thread is made as to ask questions for the evolutionists and hope the creationists (if they still do exist) to share their questions and ideas.

You do realize that you are calling 45% of all Muslims in the US stupid right? Do only Atheists believe in Evolution?