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Evolution by Natural Selection is a fact

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Uh..yeah...


(Hint, I'm a Deist)



But again, the existence or non-existence of a deity is irrelevant to the facts of biological evolution.

So God is not allowed to tweak His creation.
Does He lack spirit?....I think not.
Does He lack interest?....depends on who you are?

And Man would have diverged from the lesser form...developed a spiritual awareness....and all that other good stuff....
with God?
 

Mazzyhere

Member
Creationism requires an interventionist deity and frequently denies natural processes.
Biological evolution does not require an interventionist deity and relies on natural processes.
Whether or not a deity exists is irrelevant and is a matter of personal faith.

Personally, I believe the natural process is a much greater accomplishment of a deity than the reliance on supernatural explanations and pseudoscience. But my belief in a
deity has no impact on the natural processes of the universe.

Creationism has but one scenario to support. The Theory of evolution has much instability as it does not know what scenarios support it.

Actually, I think scientists have at least some God like qualities. For example scientists can create a theropod with a reversed hallux out of thin air.

I agree that the status of a God can also be irrelevant to supporting the creation story. A Creator is implied if creation is supported. The creation scenario can be supported or falsified scientifically and does not get the opportunity evolutionists have where any scenario will do. That is why I actually see the creation scenario as being more scientifically testable that the TOE.

The writers of Genesis thought of all the new discoveries modern science is finding out now, but first. The writers of Genesis already knew the universe had a beginning, the earth was molten, the earth was created before the moon, plant life came first, the first animal life were the creatures of the sea. It is only whales and birds that are out of alignment with what is on offer from TOE. It may be just a coincidence but bird and whale phylogenies appear to be the ones demonstrating the most inconsistency.

Basically I would say that modern science supports Genesis and the ideas others took from it. Fortunately, God nor creationists had copyright on the idea.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Creationism has but one scenario to support. The Theory of evolution has much instability as it does not know what scenarios support it.
What you've just said makes no sense whatsoever. The point being made is that evolution is scientific, whereas the notion of a designer is inherently supernatural - and therefore, cannot be scientific.

Actually, I think scientists have at least some God like qualities. For example scientists can create a theropod with a reversed hallux out of thin air.

I agree that the status of a God can also be irrelevant to supporting the creation story. A Creator is implied if creation is supported. The creation scenario can be supported or falsified scientifically and does not get the opportunity evolutionists have where any scenario will do. That is why I actually see the creation scenario as being more scientifically testable that the TOE.
Again, this makes no sense and reads extremely incoherently. How, exactly, can you test for creation scientifically? If I provided you with two objects that you have never seen before and told you that one was created and one was not, what specific features or qualities would you look for in those objects to be able to tell me whether or not they were created?

The writers of Genesis thought of all the new discoveries modern science is finding out now, but first. The writers of Genesis already knew the universe had a beginning, the earth was molten, the earth was created before the moon, plant life came first, the first animal life were the creatures of the sea. It is only whales and birds that are out of alignment with what is on offer from TOE. It may be just a coincidence but bird and whale phylogenies appear to be the ones demonstrating the most inconsistency.
The Bible claims that birds and fish we created simultaneously and that land animals came after birds. This is utterly false. Also, the order a book says things were "created" in doesn't demonstrate anything about the truth value of the book or it's claims.

Basically I would say that modern science supports Genesis and the ideas others took from it. Fortunately, God nor creationists had copyright on the idea.
Then you are wrong. The genesis account has no basis in scientific reality whatsoever, and no evidence has ever come to light to support it.
 

Cassiopia

Sugar and Spice
The writers of Genesis thought of all the new discoveries modern science is finding out now, but first.
Really? I missed that. Could you give me the biblical reference that explains particle physics and the theory of special relativity. Then we can tell the folks at the LHC in Cern they can go home and put their feet up. They could do with a day off.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Really? I missed that. Could you give me the biblical reference that explains particle physics and the theory of special relativity. Then we can tell the folks at the LHC in Cern they can go home and put their feet up. They could do with a day off.

How about surgery...anesthesia....cloning....genetic manipulation.

They probably did not understand what they wrote.
Moses was eighty years old when he went up on the mount.
And though he had been 'educated' in the house of pharaoh...
it is not likely he comprehended the Genesis story.

Still I find it remarkable....such things in writing... so many centuries before the time we humans could learn of such things.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
How about surgery...anesthesia....cloning....genetic manipulation.

They probably did not understand what they wrote.
Moses was eighty years old when he went up on the mount.
And though he had been 'educated' in the house of pharaoh...
it is not likely he comprehended the Genesis story.

Still I find it remarkable....such things in writing... so many centuries before the time we humans could learn of such things.
Where are any of those things mentioned in the Bible? And, please, do not cite any vague passages that could literally mean anything you want them to.
 

Cassiopia

Sugar and Spice
Genesis chapter Two.
Where????
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


 

Mazzyhere

Member
Immortal Flame said

What you've just said makes no sense whatsoever. The point being made is that evolution is scientific, whereas the notion of a designer is inherently supernatural - and therefore, cannot be scientific.

I think that perhaps what you are saying makes no sense. I have a scenario in Genesis to support. I do not need to evoke a Creator nor understand how life is instantly created any more than evolutionists need to be able to scientifically reproduce abiogenesis in the lab to confirm the basis of evolutionary theory. I can conveniently separate the actual creation and the existence of God out of the Genesis account much the same way as evolutionists do not consider abiogenesis a part of TOE.

Again, this makes no sense and reads extremely incoherently. How, exactly, can you test for creation scientifically? If I provided you with two objects that you have never seen before and told you that one was created and one was not, what specific features or qualities would you look for in those objects to be able to tell me whether or not they were created?

Again you are confusing yourself. I do not need to prove there is a God. I have a creative scenario already laid out for me in Genesis to support or falsify. The Genesis account is actually testable. TOE is not. When evolutionists find something that does not align they can think up any story to sort it. It does not even need to be particularly plausible. I can not do this because my scenario is fixed and testable.

The Bible claims that birds and fish we created simultaneously and that land animals came after birds. This is utterly false. Also, the order a book says things were "created" in doesn't demonstrate anything about the truth value of the book or it's claims.

As I said I have a scenario already written and fixed. That is why it is testable but TOE is not. I disagree with you as I do not believe in the pot luck of these old writters having got so many scientific facts accurate by sheer chance rather than divine inspiration. Scientists have taken a long time to reach the accuracy they have now, but the bible writters already were told this information well in advance of the modern sciences.

Then you are wrong. The genesis account has no basis in scientific reality whatsoever, and no evidence has ever come to light to support it.

May I respectfully say, I think you are wrong. I think the reason scientists are unable to achieve consistency is because they are trying to demonstrate something that did not happen.

This below is not convincing.....

These results show that Theropoda as presently constituted may not be monophyletic and that the verificationist approach of the BMT literature may be producing misleading studies on the origin of birds.
http://www.bio.fsu.edu/James/Ornithological%20Monographs%202009.pdf

fetchObject.action


PLoS ONE: Relationships of Cetacea (Artiodactyla) Among Mammals: Increased Taxon Sampling Alters Interpretations of Key Fossils and Character Evolution


Ave and whale phylogeny is not what I would call credible. In whales 3 scenarios can be offered. DNA, Morphology and DNA and morphology combined, all give differing ancestral connections. I do not see what is offered in aves and whales as credible data, nor empirical evidence.

Birds are fragile hollow boned creatures. It would be amazing to find any trace of them back to the Devonian. What has been found is fossil bird footprints that display a reversed hallux dated to 212 million years ago. Now of course this does not sit well with your current bird ancestry scenarios. Scientists have created an unknown theropod with a reversed hallux basically out of thin air as there is no evidence of any theropod found so far having modern avian feet and none are discovered or named with modern avian feet.

This would be an example of how empirical evidence aligns with my creationist view. This evidence dates modern birds more than half way back to the Devonian when Genesis says they were created. Evolutionary scientists must create a mythical creature to maintian their status quo. I do not need to invent any more complicating scenarios to align this evidence with my view. I feel I have the most parsimonous explanation that aligns with this evidence.

So as much as I can respect your views, I still see the evidence as being more in line with the Genesis account than the evolutionary account which is hardly testable and unfalsifiable.

Again, I have a fixed story to support or falsify. Evolutionary scientists can invent an unknown theropod and then call on convergent evolution to hand wave away that which is uncomfortable. This is one of the reasons why I say the Genesis account is scientifically testable but TOE is not.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I think that perhaps what you are saying makes no sense. I have a scenario in Genesis to support. I do not need to evoke a Creator nor understand how life is instantly created any more than evolutionists need to be able to scientifically reproduce abiogenesis in the lab to confirm the basis of evolutionary theory. I can conveniently separate the actual creation and the existence of God out of the Genesis account much the same way as evolutionists do not consider abiogenesis a part of TOE.
How can you do that? The concept of the world being created is absolutely dependent on the existence of a creator - you cannot claim one without evoking the other - whereas evolution and abiogenesis are completely different. You can easily claim "life changes over time" without claiming "the origin of life is the result of nothing more than chemical processes", but you cannot claim "life is created" without evoking the necessity of a creator. That makes no sense.


Again you are confusing yourself. I do not need to prove there is a God. I have a creative scenario already laid out for me in Genesis to support or falsify. The Genesis account is actually testable.
Then it's already been falsified. We know the Universe is not the result of merely seven days and we know that life is the result of lengthy evolutionary processes and that species were not simply magically poofed into existence.

TOE is not. When evolutionists find something that does not align they can think up any story to sort it. It does not even need to be particularly plausible. I can not do this because my scenario is fixed and testable.
This is just brazenly false. There would be any number of means to falsify evolution if evolution weren't true. The truth is that no single fact has ever come to light that contradicts evolution as an explanation for the diversity of life. If there are, and evolutionists have simply "made up a story about it" to "sort it", please give an example.

As I said I have a scenario already written and fixed. That is why it is testable but TOE is not. I disagree with you as I do not believe in the pot luck of these old writters having got so many scientific facts accurate by sheer chance rather than divine inspiration.
But they didn't get any scientific facts accurate. There's no science in genesis whatsoever, just a mythical fable.

Scientists have taken a long time to reach the accuracy they have now, but the bible writters already were told this information well in advance of the modern sciences.
Then please explain why nobody seemed to know this until science found it out hundreds (if not thousands) of years later. If it was in the Bible, why did science need to "re-discover" it? You're just reading into the Bible. Just like what you accused evolutionists of doing, all you are doing is taking facts that do not fit with the account given in your bronze-age texts and trying to make it fit by re-interpreting the script. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you twist the meaning of the words - this is what makes the Bible, and genesis specifically, unreliable, untestable and unfalsifiable. No matter how many facts are produced that totally and utterly contradict them, you can just twist the vague sentences and words to mean something else.


May I respectfully say, I think you are wrong. I think the reason scientists are unable to achieve consistency is because they are trying to demonstrate something that did not happen.
You are not qualified to make that assessment, unless you can demonstrate that evolution did not happen.

So as much as I can respect your views, I still see the evidence as being more in line with the Genesis account than the evolutionary account which is hardly testable and unfalsifiable.
That, again, is bogus. Evolution is absolutely falsifiable and testable - it has and continues to be tested by thousands of scientists every single day. To say evolution is unfalsifiable is just plain wrong, and to continue to state that it is is nothing more than attempting to spread misinformation.

Again, I have a fixed story to support or falsify.
But it's a fixed story that you can just change the meaning of. I've already pointed out that the Bible says that birds came before land animals, were formed at the same time as fish, and that all land animals aside from humans were created simultaneously. These claims are all utterly refuted. They run completely contrary to what we observe in reality and every single fact that is relevant to the subject.

Evolutionary scientists can invent an unknown theropod and then call on convergent evolution to hand wave away that which is uncomfortable.
Again, nonsense. Scientists do not just "invent" unknowns. They hypothesize a creature, then they go out and find it. Evolutionary paleontology is rife with examples of scientists using evolution as a model with which to accurately predict the existence and whereabouts of specific transitional forms, then going out and finding fossils that fit those predictions exactly. Scientists in this field never rest on their assumptions, nor do they rest on the mountains of evidence they already possess - work is constantly being done in the subject. To misrepresent their hard work as "hand waving" is disrespectful to them and the work they do in all fields of science every day, and shows a distinct lack of any kind of understanding of the scientific process that each and every one of them undertakes.

This is one of the reasons why I say the Genesis account is scientifically testable but TOE is not.
Which is totally the opposite of what all the facts indicate.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So no one actually recognizes a science technique....
and yet you want discussion as if your do?

Chapter Two....
A specimen is chosen....
ideal living conditions in place....
the specimen is made to sleep...
an extraction of body is performed....
the sample is increased....
the sample is altered....

Anesthesia....surgery....cloning....genetic manipulation...

Eve is Adam's twin sister.
She had no navel.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
So no one actually recognizes a science technique....
and yet you want discussion as if your do?

Chapter Two....
A specimen is chosen....
ideal living conditions in place....
the specimen is made to sleep...
an extraction of body is performed....
the sample is increased....
the sample is altered....

Anesthesia....surgery....cloning....genetic manipulation...

Eve is Adam's twin sister.
She had no navel.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian

Same to you:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I didn't write Genesis.

I do find it remarkable the implications....
at a time when such story telling could not be reasoned.

Perhaps you might take an intelligent guess...the making of such a tale?
Why would an old man of eighty...tell such a story?
He went up on a mount, and came back with something for which there would no need or reason.

Or maybe....
Moses did ask...and God did answer.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Same to you:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I didn't write Genesis.

I do find it remarkable the implications....
at a time when such story telling could not be reasoned.

Perhaps you might take an intelligent guess...the making of such a tale?
Why would an old man of eighty...tell such a story?
He went up on a mount, and came back with something for which there would no need or reason.

Or maybe....
Moses did ask...and God did answer.

It´s not unknown that we are not aware (or are less aware) of pain when we are unconscious.

About making eve from the rib, using the part of a being to make something related to the being is seen in many myths, and that doesn´t show they are true at all.

As to the way, simple halucination and coming into contact with his own subconscious to create a story compiling different stories he had listened in different times. I believe he believed himself, but there is no reason to believe he couldn´t have came up with the story and thought his subconscious created hallucination came from God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It´s not unknown that we are not aware (or are less aware) of pain when we are unconscious.

About making eve from the rib, using the part of a being to make something related to the being is seen in many myths, and that doesn´t show they are true at all.

As to the way, simple halucination and coming into contact with his own subconscious to create a story compiling different stories he had listened in different times. I believe he believed himself, but there is no reason to believe he couldn´t have came up with the story and thought his subconscious created hallucination came from God.

You miss the point.
The story has been around for centuries....
and will be long after we are gone.

Now focus.....
Man is different than all of the other animals.
If you were Moses....having the attention of the Almighty....you might ask...
What is Man?... that You are mindful of him.

In the course of the conversation, this story of bodily manipulation comes up.
What is Moses to do with such info?

And yet the story was delivered.
And retold over all of these years.
Only in recent decades do the details seem feasible.

And if you were Moses.....the story means what to you?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
So God is not allowed to tweak His creation.
Does He lack spirit?....I think not.
Does He lack interest?....depends on who you are?

And Man would have diverged from the lesser form...developed a spiritual awareness....and all that other good stuff....
with God?
Irrelevant speculation involving supernatural interventionism to promote anthropocentrism.

The fact remains that biological evolution is a fact of nature with or without God.
 
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