Evolution: Do you see the resemblence

[England my lionheart]

Thomas Hunt Morgan began the fruit fly experiment in 1904 and is still going today,the process was accelerated by 15000% ,but nothing in this experiment to support toe arose.
Now before you get on your high horse and dismiss it,read on.
Theodosius Dobszhansky did some experiments with fruit flies and he was pro toe indeed his work was to support it.
He like many biologists chose the Fruit Fly because of the size of chromozones and speed of reproduction and although mutations did occur as with Morgans experiments ie longer limbs ,increase in size they were unable or reluctant to mate.
My point in this is clear,two experiments one still going have failed to lead to a change in species and the fly is still a fly despite what Dobzhansky claimed.

PS
Will Hilary win,will sh get to the white house?

 

[Willamena]

Thomas Hunt Morgan began the fruit fly experiment in 1904 and is still going today,the process was accelerated by 15000% ,but nothing in this experiment to support toe arose.

What exactly did Morgan and his students fail to do, in your opinion?

They produced heritable mutations and determined chromosonal causation for them. Does their research not support, build upon and develop the ToE?

 

[throwback]

Thomas Hunt Morgan began the fruit fly experiment in 1904 and is still going today,the process was accelerated by 15000% ,but nothing in this experiment to support toe arose.
Now before you get on your high horse and dismiss it,read on.
Theodosius Dobszhansky did some experiments with fruit flies and he was pro toe indeed his work was to support it.
He like many biologists chose the Fruit Fly because of the size of chromozones and speed of reproduction and although mutations did occur as with Morgans experiments ie longer limbs ,increase in size they were unable or reluctant to mate.
My point in this is clear,two experiments one still going have failed to lead to a change in species and the fly is still a fly despite what Dobzhansky claimed.

PS
Will Hilary win,will sh get to the white house?

You really don't listen, do you? Once more, you cannot greatly increase the mutation rate of a population and expect it to be any sort of realistic model of evolution in the wild, let alone a "speeded-up" version. It simply doesn't work that way. Species tread a fine line between "too little" and "too much" mutation. Too little, and there is not enough raw material for selection to act on - the population is unable to adapt to new conditions. Too much, and negative traits build up faster than they can be weeded out.

These experiments were an excellent way to gain evidence of the mechanisms of heredity, but they are, and always will be, a rather damaging affair for the species involved.

 

[roli]

And science is not law.

I really get tired of typing the same things at the end of the thread as at the beginning. It makes you feel like you're not getting anywhere. I'm also getting tired of people who know absolutely nothing about science nevertheless having paradoxical confidence in their rejection of it.

SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT PROOF. NOTHING IN SCIENCE IS EVER PROVEN. WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR PROOF. SCIENCE IS ABOUT EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE IS THE HOLY GRAIL OF SCIENCE, AS GOOD AS IT GETS. Maybe I should make a master post with the definition of a theory, the importance of evidence, the basic fact that ToE is a scientific theory about diversity of organisms, and just refer people to it, so I don't have to repeat this stuff.

Just what is it that you actually believe and are not fully saying regarding the origin of the first organism and it's relation to humans.

Let's just cut to the chase, do you believe we all came from some common organism

 

[roli]

Just one question to all who support ToE, without using all your sources and scientific vocabulary and findings and without being sarcastic or demeaning.
I'm just asking for an honest personal opinionated answer based on all your insurmountable proof, without adding any further info, what is your personal conclusion to the origin of human evolution
Do you believe we all ultimately came from chimps and if so, what is believed amongst ToEists happened before the chimp.

Of course there is so much emphasis on theory ,I'm only asking what theory is supposed before the chimp arrived, what was his common ancestor and so on back to the original organism or bacteria culture.

 

[throwback]

Just one question to all who support ToE, without using all your sources and scientific vocabulary and findings and without being sarcastic or demeaning.
I'm just asking for an honest personal opinionated answer based on all your insurmountable proof, without adding any further info, what is your personal conclusion to the origin of human evolution
Do you believe we all ultimately came from chimps and if so, what is believed amongst ToEists happened before the chimp.

Of course there is so much emphasis on theory ,I'm only asking what theory is supposed before the chimp arrived, what was his common ancestor and so on back to the original organism or bacteria culture.

Not from chimpanzees, from a chimpanzee-like creature, which was the ancestor of us and chimpanzees. Going further back leads to something that looked rather like a modern-day shrew.

 

[Willamena]

Just one question to all who support ToE, without using all your sources and scientific vocabulary and findings and without being sarcastic or demeaning.
I'm just asking for an honest personal opinionated answer based on all your insurmountable proof...

Well, then you ask the impossible. Proceed...

without adding any further info, what is your personal conclusion to the origin of human evolution

Oh, that's easy (pshaw). My "personal conclusion" as to the "origin of human evolution" (or other evolution) is mankind's intelligence: his ability to construct connections between pieces of information, make inferences, and draw conclusions. That is what gives us "evolution." But that's probably not what you meant...

Do you believe we all ultimately came from chimps and if so, what is believed amongst ToEists happened before the chimp.

No. I don't believe we ever came from chimps, or that the theory of evolution proses that we did.

As the idea goes, before the chimp there were other, more primative primates, in succession, and somewhere in the past amongst their ancestors was one that we humans and the chimps must have had in common.

Of course there is so much emphasis on theory ,I'm only asking what theory is supposed before the chimp arrived, what was his common ancestor and so on back to the original organism or bacteria culture.

For the "before the chimp arrived," it's the same theory as it is now.

If you want an outline of the predicted evolutionary trees, I'm sure there are some available on the Internet.

 

[camanintx]

Just one question to all who support ToE, without using all your sources and scientific vocabulary and findings and without being sarcastic or demeaning.
I'm just asking for an honest personal opinionated answer based on all your insurmountable proof, without adding any further info, what is your personal conclusion to the origin of human evolution
Do you believe we all ultimately came from chimps and if so, what is believed amongst ToEists happened before the chimp.

If you ran into two people in the same town who had almost identical features and traits, wouldn't you naturally assume they were somehow related? When you see how much humans and chimps are alike biologically, why is it so difficult to imagine that they could share a common ancestor.

Of course there is so much emphasis on theory ,I'm only asking what theory is supposed before the chimp arrived, what was his common ancestor and so on back to the original organism or bacteria culture.

If all life can grow from a single cell into the complex organisms we see around us in a single lifetime, why is it so hard to imagine all of these organisms could evolve from a common single celled organism over the course of millennia?

 

[Autodidact]

Thomas Hunt Morgan began the fruit fly experiment in 1904 and is still going today,the process was accelerated by 15000% ,but nothing in this experiment to support toe arose.
Now before you get on your high horse and dismiss it,read on.
Theodosius Dobszhansky did some experiments with fruit flies and he was pro toe indeed his work was to support it.
He like many biologists chose the Fruit Fly because of the size of chromozones and speed of reproduction and although mutations did occur as with Morgans experiments ie longer limbs ,increase in size they were unable or reluctant to mate.
My point in this is clear,two experiments one still going have failed to lead to a change in species and the fly is still a fly despite what Dobzhansky claimed.

PS
Will Hilary win,will sh get to the white house?

Do you have a reference to what on earth experiment you are talking about?

 

[Autodidact]

Just what is it that you actually believe and are not fully saying regarding the origin of the first organism and it's relation to humans.

Let's just cut to the chase, do you believe we all came from some common organism

Yes of course, I think I've made that clear. That's what the ToE is about. I said that. ToE says that all organisms on earth are descendants of a single common ancestor billions of years ago.

Now will you please answer my question? Do you believe that new species can arise from existing species?

 

[Autodidact]

Just one question to all who support ToE, without using all your sources and scientific vocabulary and findings and without being sarcastic or demeaning.
I'm just asking for an honest personal opinionated answer based on all your insurmountable proof, without adding any further info, what is your personal conclusion to the origin of human evolution
Do you believe we all ultimately came from chimps and if so, what is believed amongst ToEists happened before the chimp.

Of course there is so much emphasis on theory ,I'm only asking what theory is supposed before the chimp arrived, what was his common ancestor and so on back to the original organism or bacteria culture.

No. Chimps and humans are both descended from a single common ancestor that is now extinct.

There is a book, a very long book, that traces your exact question, from hominids back to mammals back to vertebrates, etc. It is called The Ancestor's Tale, by Richard Dawkins. It answers your question at great length. This medium is too short, as the answer is very long and technical. It would also be covered in a university level Evolutionary Biology course.

Congratulations, you are now on the right subject. Please stick with it.

 

[yossarian22]

Thomas Hunt Morgan began the fruit fly experiment in 1904 and is still going today,the process was accelerated by 15000% ,but nothing in this experiment to support toe arose.
Now before you get on your high horse and dismiss it,read on.
Theodosius Dobszhansky did some experiments with fruit flies and he was pro toe indeed his work was to support it.
He like many biologists chose the Fruit Fly because of the size of chromozones and speed of reproduction and although mutations did occur as with Morgans experiments ie longer limbs ,increase in size they were unable or reluctant to mate.
My point in this is clear,two experiments one still going have failed to lead to a change in species and the fly is still a fly despite what Dobzhansky claimed.

Lets simplify this down so you get it.
Let X be a random variable between 1 and 100,000,000,000 inclusive. We assign any number arbitrarily as win--lets say 500, and all the rest as lose. A skewed binomial system. If an outcome loses (every outcome except 500 loses), it is removed from the set. Variable X is stored in a list. This list is reset after variable X has changed 100 million times.
That is an extremely simple model of a population undergoing evolution. Convert this into computer code and you have just demonstrated (non biological) evolution. The list will eventually change into only the number 500. That is all this program will give out after a couple hundred trillion.

What this fruit fly experiment did was increase how quickly X changed, but it allows a losing outcome to happen again and again and again, preventing the fruit flies from changing.

 

[roli]

If you ran into two people in the same town who had almost identical features and traits, wouldn't you naturally assume they were somehow related? When you see how much humans and chimps are alike biologically, why is it so difficult to imagine that they could share a common ancestor.



If all life can grow from a single cell into the complex organisms we see around us in a single lifetime, why is it so hard to imagine all of these organisms could evolve from a common single celled organism over the course of millennia?

It's very easy to imagine anything you want, but it's at best just guess work.
Is it equally so hard to imagine that God created life and all things, does that insult your scientific intellect.
If it does then God was successful creating something that man will never fully comprehend or prove through scientific evidence, but on the contrary cause us to only perceive through faith.

What you fail to see is you operate in a level of faith in a theory man has compiled.
What I believe and percieve requires similar faith but is directed towards God, the difference is that the Holy Spirit verifies,confirms affirms and establishes beyond any resonable doubt what God says is truth and life,.....but it's only that to those who believe him, its upon that, they percieve the revelation of God.

That can't not be supported with any emperical evidence or scientific experiment, but faith alone that unlocks that secret, one that many may not ever access.

 

[Autodidact]

It's very easy to imagine anything you want, but it's at best just guess work.
Is it equally so hard to imagine that God created life and all things, does that insult your scientific intellect.
If it does then God was successful creating something that man will never fully comprehend or prove through scientific evidence, but on the contrary cause us to only perceive through faith.

What you fail to see is you operate in a level of faith in a theory man has compiled.
What I believe and percieve requires similar faith but is directed towards God, the difference is that the Holy Spirit verifies,confirms affirms and establishes beyond any resonable doubt what God says is truth and life,.....but it's only that to those who believe him, its upon that, they percieve the revelation of God.

That can't not be supported with any emperical evidence or scientific experiment, but faith alone that unlocks that secret, one that many may not ever access.

roli: You also seem to be having a remembering problem. We all agree that God created all things. That's not in dispute. The only question is, how did He do it? Did He poof each individual species into existence, and they never change thereafter, or did He set up a system by which each species would evolve? That is the only question that science can answer, and the only one that ToE seeks to answer.

 

[camanintx]

It's very easy to imagine anything you want, but it's at best just guess work.
Is it equally so hard to imagine that God created life and all things, does that insult your scientific intellect.

The idea that God created life and all things wouldn't insult my scientific intellect if it conformed with the world I see around me, but when there are so many examples of order and complexity arising through simple, natural processes, imagining that something must have created it all is like imagining that an object I drop will suddenly fall up.

Creationists have to believe that God is all powerful and all knowing to support their belief, but the fact that 99% of all species which have ever existed have gone extinct belies this. If humans are the last creation of God and represent his best work, then why do so many other species have better eyesight, better hearing, better sense of smell, are faster, are more tolerant of the environment, etc.?

 

[Willamena]

Is it equally so hard to imagine that God created life and all things, does that insult your scientific intellect.
If it does then God was successful creating something that man will never fully comprehend or prove through scientific evidence, but on the contrary cause us to only perceive through faith.

Okay, I give up. I cannot stand the suspense... What was it?

 

[Francine]

If humans are the last creation of God and represent his best work, then why do so many other species have better eyesight, better hearing, better sense of smell, are faster, are more tolerant of the environment, etc.?

Animals are not tolerant of the environment, that's awful fuzzy headed greeny-weenyism for you. Suppose a city had a nice park next to a stream with old-growth cottonwoods, and they decided to import some beavers for local color. Kiss those cottonwood trees goodbye.

 

[roli]

Okay, I give up. I cannot stand the suspense... What was it?

Well ,it's a mystery that has recently been revealed,
Col 1:26[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The ability to know God, to see into the spiritual things of God, is based not on our ability to gather enough emperical proof,scientific evidence, or anything that we perceive with our eyes or form with our hands or imagine in our minds but it's an encounter with the Holy Spirit that proceeds abiding in ,dwelling in ,remaining in Christ alone.

A little of topic ,but answering your question nevertheless.

 

[Willamena]

Oh, whew. It's just Jesus. For a minute there I thought you were trying to make sense.

 

[roli]

The idea that God created life and all things wouldn't insult my scientific intellect if it conformed with the world I see around me, but when there are so many examples of order and complexity arising through simple, natural processes, imagining that something must have created it all is like imagining that an object I drop will suddenly fall up.

That's my point and the problem in relation to God with those who espouse to the seeing is believing concept. To imagine or even consider such complexities arose randomly through gradual processes is absurd, ie: a car being designed in the backyard of a car lot on it's own over time, 20 apples falling from a tree and landing in perfect figure 8 is an insult to any person's intelligence.

You walk by and see 20 apples lying on the ground in perfect order forming the # 8, you would be absurd to think it happened by chance or that even over time the wind and the elements caused it to align itself in such a way without the aid of something higher in intellect would be a foolish notion to even consider, logically speaking
So look at the complexities of man and the DNA similarities we have with other species and then say we all arrived from a common ancestor because there is no other logical explaination, ultimately originating from a single celled organism due to natural selection to what we see now as a complex human being, is, well, out there.

But I understand how out there it is for some to question how God could have spoke the species into being, so it all boils down to faith and it's through that faith that unlocks the mysteries of God which is Christ in you

Creationists have to believe that God is all powerful and all knowing to support their belief, but the fact that 99% of all species which have ever existed have gone extinct belies this. If humans are the last creation of God and represent his best work, then why do so many other species have better eyesight, better hearing, better sense of smell, are faster, are more tolerant of the environment, etc

Good question ,one you can ask God about someday, but having those answers is not of interest to those who come to God by grace through faith out of true repentance and recieve the revelation of God, and oh what a freedom even a child could discern.

You were created in God's image, do you see the resemblance or do you find your image in the prebiotic soup mix of bacteria