Evolution: Do you see the resemblence

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Animals are not tolerant of the environment, that's awful fuzzy headed greeny-weenyism for you. Suppose a city had a nice park next to a stream with old-growth cottonwoods, and they decided to import some beavers for local color. Kiss those cottonwood trees goodbye.

I took "more tolerant of their environment" to mean something else. Plenty of animals can wander around in apparent comfort equally well in the middle of winter as they can in the heat of summer, while we'd get hypothermia (at least without a good winter jacket) or heatstroke in the same conditions.

Camanintx, was that what you were getting at?

 

[Autodidact]

That's my point and the problem in relation to God with those who espouse to the seeing is believing concept. To imagine or even consider such complexities arose randomly through gradual processes is absurd, ie: a car being designed in the backyard of a car lot on it's own over time, 20 apples falling from a tree and landing in perfect figure 8 is an insult to any person's intelligence.

You walk by and see 20 apples lying on the ground in perfect order forming the # 8, you would be absurd to think it happened by chance or that even over time the wind and the elements caused it to align itself in such a way without the aid of something higher in intellect would be a foolish notion to even consider, logically speaking
So look at the complexities of man and the DNA similarities we have with other species and then say we all arrived from a common ancestor because there is no other logical explaination, ultimately originating from a single celled organism due to natural selection to what we see now as a complex human being, is, well, out there.

But since evolution is not based on randomness, these examples are not applicable to the subject at hand. If you all want to talk about the existence of God, please start a new thread. This one is about evolution.

 

[camanintx]

I took "more tolerant of their environment" to mean something else. Plenty of animals can wander around in apparent comfort equally well in the middle of winter as they can in the heat of summer, while we'd get hypothermia (at least without a good winter jacket) or heatstroke in the same conditions.

Camanintx, was that what you were getting at?

That is exactly what I was getting at, just didn't do a very good job of it. Thanks.

 

[camanintx]

You walk by and see 20 apples lying on the ground in perfect order forming the # 8, you would be absurd to think it happened by chance or that even over time the wind and the elements caused it to align itself in such a way without the aid of something higher in intellect would be a foolish notion to even consider, logically speaking

Since you think it is foolish to find complex patterns formed through natural processes, I suppose you would credit aliens or some other intelligence for creating the mountain in Alberta Canada that resembles an Indian wearing an ipod?

Without something to constrain where the apples fell, the number of possible patterns 20 apples could fall in are virtually limitless, so expecting to see one specific pattern would be foolish. However, the human brain excels at discerning patterns from apparently random data so it would be even more absurd if you didn't see anything.

Haven't you ever watched clouds drift by and picked out the shapes they form? You aren't suggesting that some cosmic intelligence was responsible for those shapes, are you?

 

[Smoke]

Since you think it is foolish to find complex patterns formed through natural processes, I suppose you would credit aliens or some other intelligence for creating the mountain in Alberta Canada that resembles an Indian wearing an ipod?

Without something to constrain where the apples fell, the number of possible patterns 20 apples could fall in are virtually limitless, so expecting to see one specific pattern would be foolish. However, the human brain excels at discerning patterns from apparently random data so it would be even more absurd if you didn't see anything.

Haven't you ever watched clouds drift by and picked out the shapes they form? You aren't suggesting that some cosmic intelligence was responsible for those shapes, are you?

Silly camanintx. Next you'll be telling us that the Giant's Causeway is a natural formation, or that the Blessed Virgin doesn't appear on grilled cheese sandwiches and the sides of buildings. Some people just don't know proof when they see it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You walk by and see 20 apples lying on the ground in perfect order forming the # 8, you would be absurd to think it happened by chance or that even over time the wind and the elements caused it to align itself in such a way without the aid of something higher in intellect would be a foolish notion to even consider, logically speaking
So look at the complexities of man and the DNA similarities we have with other species and then say we all arrived from a common ancestor because there is no other logical explaination, ultimately originating from a single celled organism due to natural selection to what we see now as a complex human being, is, well, out there.

So... when a thing has an apparent complexity that's much less than, say, a snowflake, this is proof that this thing did not arise by natural processes?

roli, where does snow come from?

 

[Francine]

Silly camanintx. Next you'll be telling us that the Giant's Causeway is a natural formation, or that the Blessed Virgin doesn't appear on grilled cheese sandwiches and the sides of buildings. Some people just don't know proof when they see it.

The Vatican has a vetting process which requires a certain amount of time to transpire before they declare an apparition of the BVM on sandwiches or sides of buildings valid, lest it just turn out to be a growing pattern of mold.

 

[Smoke]

The Vatican has a vetting process which requires a certain amount of time to transpire before they declare an apparition of the BVM on sandwiches or sides of buildings valid, lest it just turn out to be a growing pattern of mold.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did.

 

[camanintx]

Silly camanintx. Next you'll be telling us that the Giant's Causeway is a natural formation, or that the Blessed Virgin doesn't appear on grilled cheese sandwiches and the sides of buildings. Some people just don't know proof when they see it.

Don't you realize what the odds are of just 4 hexagonal basalt columns randomly arranging themselves like this are, much less 40,000? :sarcastic

 

[yossarian22]

But since evolution is not based on randomness,

Yes it is. Mutations are entirely random.
Take away the randomness and you have nothing.

 

[Willamena]

Yes it is. Mutations are entirely random.
Take away the randomness and you have nothing.

But evolution is not random mutations. Evolution is the graduated process of changes moved along generation by generation.

 

[yossarian22]

But evolution is not random mutations. Evolution is the graduated process of changes moved along generation by generation.

I meant biological evolution.
There is a large degree of randomness to evolution.

 

[camanintx]

Yes it is. Mutations are entirely random.
Take away the randomness and you have nothing.

No, take away the randomness and you have genetic engineering. Evolution is based on natural selection which doesn't care where the mutation comes from.

 

[yossarian22]

No, take away the randomness and you have genetic engineering.

True, but that requires manipulation

Evolution is based on natural selection which doesn't care where the mutation comes from.

So you agree that biological evolution has randomness to it?
Because the mutation is random, evolution is random.

 

[Darkness]

So you agree that biological evolution has randomness to it?
Because the mutation is random, evolution is random.

Evolution is random to an extent. It is guided and "restricted" by Natural Selection.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes it is. Mutations are entirely random.
Take away the randomness and you have nothing.

Well, imagine that you have thousands of creative people locked in rooms randomly throwing out ideas, and one brilliant person choosing which ideas to keep. The total process is not random. Evolution would not work if it were random. The mutations are random, but the selection is not.

 

[Autodidact]

True, but that requires manipulation

So you agree that biological evolution has randomness to it?
Because the mutation is random, evolution is random.

No, it doesn't follow. There is an important (fairly) random part, and an equally important non-random selection part. That's why the total process is the opposite of random. This is very, very important to understand, because no one, including me, is going to believe that something as complex and effective as an organism arises purely randomly.

 

[yossarian22]

Well, imagine that you have thousands of creative people locked in rooms randomly throwing out ideas, and one brilliant person choosing which ideas to keep. The total process is not random. Evolution would not work if it were random. The mutations are random, but the selection is not.

Without the mutations evolution cannot naturally occur.
Your example is still random.
If there is any randomness present in a system at all, that system has a degree of randomness to it.

No, it doesn't follow. There is an important (fairly) random part, and an equally important non-random selection part. That's why the total process is the opposite of random.

Mutations are unpredictable, so they are effectively random.

This is very, very important to understand, because no one, including me, is going to believe that something as complex and effective as an organism arises purely randomly.

Are people unable to read?
Where did I say that the entire process was random?
There is a large degree of randomness to it.
Look up what statistical randomness is.

 

[painted wolf]

Evolution works by Natural selection weeding out the results of random mutations.

The base cause of evolution is random.... mutations.
The over all effect is not on the whole random itself.

Natural selection isn't the whole story... there is also sexual selection and other factors at work.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

Without the mutations evolution cannot naturally occur.
Your example is still random.
If there is any randomness present in a system at all, that system has a degree of randomness to it.

Mutations are unpredictable, so they are effectively random.

Are people unable to read?
Where did I say that the entire process was random?
There is a large degree of randomness to it.
Look up what statistical randomness is.

Yes, but I was responding to camantix, who said:

That's my point and the problem in relation to God with those who espouse to the seeing is believing concept. To imagine or even consider such complexities arose randomly through gradual processes is absurd, ie: a car being designed in the backyard of a car lot on it's own over time, 20 apples falling from a tree and landing in perfect figure 8 is an insult to any person's intelligence.

You walk by and see 20 apples lying on the ground in perfect order forming the # 8, you would be absurd to think it happened by chance or that even over time the wind and the elements caused it to align itself in such a way without the aid of something higher in intellect would be a foolish notion to even consider, logically speaking

People here the word "random" anywhere in the story and assume that the theory asserts that elephants appeared randomly out of nowhere, with no process selection involved.