Evolution & God

[FearGod]

All of us should accept that evolution did really happened long time ago and the most important
evidence which we can not neglect is the fossils which have been found to show us that a different
kind of creations have been on earth before the modern ones appeared and were much related to it.

Thinking deeply without bias to one verse in the holy book will let us think that god realize this fact.

translated by Yusuf Ali (29:20) : Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation;
so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

So god asked us to travel to find facts about the first creations and that will mean nothing but the fossils,
because the only signs which we can get from traveling around the earth to find the previous creations
is by fossils.

God make it clear from understanding the verse without a biased thinking regarding the religion as
many indeed hate to think that god did any thing and refused any idea that suggest that he did anything
and many prefer to think that all creations changed due to mutations and chances through millions of
years and neglect what god said that i have the power for all such changes.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

All of us should accept that evolution did really happened long time ago and the most important
evidence which we can not neglect is the fossils which have been found to show us that a different
kind of creations have been on earth before the modern ones appeared and were much related to it.

Thinking deeply without bias to one verse in the holy book will let us think that god realize this fact.

translated by Yusuf Ali (29:20) : Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation;
so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

So god asked us to travel to find facts about the first creations and that will mean nothing but the fossils,
because the only signs which we can get from traveling around the earth to find the previous creations
is by fossils.

God make it clear from understanding the verse without a biased thinking regarding the religion as
many indeed hate to think that god did any thing and refused any idea that suggest that he did anything
and many prefer to think that all creations changed due to mutations and chances through millions of
years and neglect what god said that i have the power for all such changes.

How does that quote have anything to do with evolution?

 

[idea]

I think Muslims share the same creation account as Christians do? or at least pretty similar?

Our account in the Bible at least is pretty vague on the details. There's nothing in evolution that contradicts what is in the Bible, except perhaps to suggest that it all happens randomly. Nothing happens randomly - there is a cause behind every effect.

 

[FearGod]

How does that quote have anything to do with evolution?

The verse is very clear and do not need further explanation,god asked us to
travel on earth to find how his previous creation was and of course that means
to find the trace of that previous creation by their fossils and to to see how
he evolved the later creation.

Still need more explanation.

 

[idea]

The verse is very clear and do not need further explanation,god asked us to
travel on earth to find how his previous creation was and of course that means
to find the trace of that previous creation by their fossils and to to see how
he evolved the later creation.

Still need more explanation.

Interesting. Mormons believe that ours was not the first creation too:

33 And worlds without number have I created....
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:35)

I think new worlds get built on the ruins of older worlds... we are told that another new world will one day be built on the ruins of where we now live:

a new heaven and a new earth (New Testament | Revelation 21:1)

just as there will be a wipe/reset in the future, I think there was a wipe/reset in the past... that Adam and Eve were sent here to a world that had become spiritually void, to bring in a new era/start a new world.


there is even an account of the children of God intermingling with the indigenous population perhaps - or at least that is one way to interpret it.


4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.(Old Testament | Genesis 6:4)

 

[FearGod]

Interesting. Mormons believe that ours was not the first creation too:

33 And worlds without number have I created....
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:35)

I think new worlds get built on the ruins of older worlds... we are told that another new world will one day be built on the ruins of where we now live:

a new heaven and a new earth (New Testament | Revelation 21:1)

just as there will be a wipe/reset in the future, I think there was a wipe/reset in the past... that Adam and Eve were sent here to a world that had become spiritually void, to bring in a new era/start a new world.


there is even an account of the children of God intermingling with the indigenous population perhaps - or at least that is one way to interpret it.


4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.(Old Testament | Genesis 6:4)

What you added here is realy nice which show us also that god is aware of
such facts.

 

[McBell]

there is a cause behind every effect.

Which sounds great until you start making exceptions for your rule.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The verse is very clear and do not need further explanation,god asked us to
travel on earth to find how his previous creation was and of course that means
to find the trace of that previous creation by their fossils and to to see how
he evolved the later creation.

Still need more explanation.

I don't think it's even remotely clear. It's clearly an extremely ambiguous passage that could mean practically whatever you want it to if you choose to interpret it that way. If God caused evolution - and wanted people to know about it - why not explain it all those years ago in a way that wasn't intentionally vague?

 

[McBell]

All of us should accept that evolution did really happened long time ago and the most important
evidence which we can not neglect is the fossils which have been found to show us that a different
kind of creations have been on earth before the modern ones appeared and were much related to it.

Thinking deeply without bias to one verse in the holy book will let us think that god realize this fact.

translated by Yusuf Ali (29:20) : Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation;
so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

So god asked us to travel to find facts about the first creations and that will mean nothing but the fossils,
because the only signs which we can get from traveling around the earth to find the previous creations
is by fossils.

God make it clear from understanding the verse without a biased thinking regarding the religion as
many indeed hate to think that god did any thing and refused any idea that suggest that he did anything
and many prefer to think that all creations changed due to mutations and chances through millions of
years and neglect what god said that i have the power for all such changes.

This is nothing more than using the Forer Effect to get the verse to say what you want the verse to say.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think Muslims share the same creation account as Christians do? or at least pretty similar?

Our account in the Bible at least is pretty vague on the details. There's nothing in evolution that contradicts what is in the Bible, except perhaps to suggest that it all happens randomly. Nothing happens randomly - there is a cause behind every effect.

Not randomly; unguided.

 

[idea]

Not randomly; unguided.

I believe in artificial selection -

Artificial selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We choose (guide) who to mate with, we migrate and choose what climate to live in, we choose what types of foods to eat, it's largely a proactive process driven by our ability to think/act/change - which in turn is a result of our spirit/intelligence/conscience/mind. Call it what you will - but there is guidance involved. Our mind/conscience/spirit/will is real - it exists - it changes things.

 

[Thief]

I don't think it's even remotely clear. It's clearly an extremely ambiguous passage that could mean practically whatever you want it to if you choose to interpret it that way. If God caused evolution - and wanted people to know about it - why not explain it all those years ago in a way that wasn't intentionally vague?

Day Six....all things that walk....including Man.

There's plenty of room for evolution.
Unless 'time' events are a problem.

Explain it using clear terms?.....to whom?....Moses?....any other prophet?

The terms of evolution include knowledge discovered by science.
The telescope and the microscope had to be invented first.

Speak to Moses the nature of evolution?
It was probably difficult enough getting him to believe he was made of dust.

Sometimes the Speaker must consider the person He speaks to.

 

[idea]

I don't think it's even remotely clear. It's clearly an extremely ambiguous passage that could mean practically whatever you want it to if you choose to interpret it that way. If God caused evolution - and wanted people to know about it - why not explain it all those years ago in a way that wasn't intentionally vague?

I don't think they knew much about the information bearing properties of DNA way back then, so they used ambiguous terms.

plus, it's not meant to be a science book - it's about refining our character/personality to be loving/charitable/kind/hard-working/honest etc. etc....

like saying some history book about George Washington is false because it didn't include the recipe for his mother's apple pie - just because the recipe isn't there doesn't mean his mom didn't make apple pie....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe in artificial selection -

Artificial selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We choose (guide) who to mate with, we migrate and choose what climate to live in, we choose what types of foods to eat, it's largely a proactive process driven by our ability to think/act/change - which in turn is a result of our spirit/intelligence/conscience/mind. Call it what you will - but there is guidance involved. Our mind/conscience/spirit/will is real - it exists - it changes things.

Two thoughts:

- the fact that we can use intelligence now doesn't speak to the processes that led to the evolution of intelligent life.

- when you engage in sexual selection, you're deliberately trying to guide our species to some specific goal? Really?

 

[idea]

Two thoughts:

- the fact that we can use intelligence now doesn't speak to the processes that led to the evolution of intelligent life.

Where does energy come from? where does matter come from? where does information come from? where does intelligence come from? These are all eternal entities. The origins debate is pointless - there is no origin, for any of it. All of it is eternal.

- when you engage in sexual selection, you're deliberately trying to guide our species to some specific goal? Really?

Qualities I look for in a mate: Kind, smart, hard-working, loyal, honest, strong, sexy - sounds like a good direction for humanity to go in, don't you think?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where does energy come from? where does matter come from? where does information come from? where does intelligence come from? These are all eternal entities. The origins debate is pointless - there is no origin, for any of it. All of it is eternal.

Intelligence is not an "eternal entity"; it's an emergent property.

But my point is that we can't say that a paramecium, an invertebrate or even a rodent is really "guiding" anything with its mating choices. It's just reacting to stimuli, really. It hasn't conceived of an evolutionary outcome it considers desireable and formulated a strategy to make it happen.

Qualities I look for in a mate: Kind, smart, hard-working, loyal, honest, strong, sexy - sounds like a good direction for humanity to go in, don't you think?

Let me put it this way: when the vision you have for what humanity should become conflicts with the traits you look for in a mate or want to be present in your own children, which one wins out?

 

[gnostic]

Our account in the Bible at least is pretty vague on the details. There's nothing in evolution that contradicts what is in the Bible, except perhaps to suggest that it all happens randomly. Nothing happens randomly - there is a cause behind every effect.

Sure there can be a "cause". The cause can be natural, instead of divine or supernatural.

Natural, like the environment, terrain or the climate. These can have effects or impacts on species.

If you look at the Galápagos Islands, as an example.

There are many islands, not really far from one another, and yet some islands provide different subspecies of animals, because of the physical terrains and climates are different. And one of these examples, are the tortoises on those islands.

Unlike their cousin - the turtles - tortoises are land-bound animals; they can't swim like their counterpart. Most of these islands have tortoises with short necks and short legs. They range in size from small to huge, but they have short legs and necks. These tortoises can forage for food because many of the plants are low and within easy reach.

However, on other islands that were dryer, with edible leaves higher up off the ground, the tortoises here have different shape shells, known as the saddle-back shell. These shells allow the tortoises to stretch upward to reach their food. Their necks and legs are longer. That's evolution at work, particularly natural selection. These tortoises needed to change physically and genetically in order to survive on these harsher environment.

As you can see, different environment can result in natural evolution of species, without this need for the mysterious "divine" cause.

I think it is a mistake to immediately and automatically jump into "God did it" mentality. I don't God or the Bible (or any other scriptures for that matter) let us understand biology. I think that to accept such conclusions of spiritual or divine cause is to abandoned all hope of understanding scientific events behind them. The ordered universe may have a cause, but it is not that of "God did it".

Even if I was uncertain about something, it only strengthened my need to know and understand the situation, and to apply reason to those things which seem to defy it.

It is science that let us understand biology. It is science that allow us to understand evolutionary biology.

 

[FearGod]

This is nothing more than using the Forer Effect to get the verse to say what you want the verse to say.

So explain to us what it means in the way you want it to be other than the origin of the creation and the later one.

give us your own explanation so we can believe that the verse can mean anything else,(magical sentence)

 

[FearGod]

i am assuming that evolution is caused by a natural selection without any interruptions
by a third power such as what we called god or whatever,my questions are

1 - Who created or how it could be produced the first cell as the first ancestor
for all living organisms out of nothing.

2 - who controlled the process of evolution,the nature did choose the bird to fly
or the bird itself chose to fly or booth agreed to do so,in the first case, the nature
is unconscious and got no mind to think for evolving a wing for the bird in order to
fly ,so that is impossible,the second case,the bird itself started to make wings,that
is also impossible that the bird will think and manage to create his own wings ,what
a clever bird and a good designer,so we got in booth cases an impossible results,and
in logic off + off never equal on or false + false never equal true so impossible + impossible
will never equal possible.

3- human and chimpanzee have one common ancestor,so who is the first ancestor
for human and chimpanzee,was he look more to chimpanzees or to humans,did
the nature chose some to be chimpanzees and monkeys...etc and the others to
be humans,the nature is unconscious and can not manage to produce from a common
ancestor,a clever human being able to think and invent plus the ability to talk in a different
way than all other mammals ,so that is impossible case,do the ancestor divide himself to
human and chimpanzee by his choice,that is also impossible ,the same results in logic,
both false results will never equal true.

So,natural selection by means of logic is not accepted and cant be applied to all the creations.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Day Six....all things that walk....including Man.

There's plenty of room for evolution.
Unless 'time' events are a problem.

How is that clear or, again, anything to do witgh evolution? Where's the explanation? Where's the process?

Explain it using clear terms?.....to whom?....Moses?....any other prophet?

Um, anyone? Considering the volumes of religious, supposedly divinely-inspired, texts that exist out there, you'd think he'd include it in at least one.

The terms of evolution include knowledge discovered by science.
The telescope and the microscope had to be invented first.

So God couldn't have explained these things before we discovered them ourselves? How difficult would it have been for God to just include a bit in one of his books that said "hey, there's these tiny little creatures that get into your body and can make you ill".

Speak to Moses the nature of evolution?
It was probably difficult enough getting him to believe he was made of dust.

So God lied, then? For no reason whatsoever?

Sometimes the Speaker must consider the person He speaks to.

Considering he was supposedly relaying the truth of our existence, I don't think he'd have to stretch it any to mention that life changes over time, or that germs exist. I fail to see why that would have been a problem for anyone at the time, considering that they had no problems believing the nonsenical fairytale about the garden of eden.