Evolution & God

[FearGod]

Like I said, because they most likely separated out into other populations and evolved into various different species - like all life does.

let me put it in the other way.

The origin of birds were the theropod dinosaurs.

Why we cant see anymore the origin,if some chickens will evolved to
birds,but still there will be chickens not able to be evolved but that
is not a reason for them to disappear or distinct even i am sure if we
will stay millions of years,the chickens will be still chickens,except
if the creator want it to be a cow instead.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

let me put it in the other way.

The origin of birds were the theropod dinosaurs.

Why we cant see anymore the origin,if some chickens will evolved to
birds,but still there will be chickens not able to be evolved but that
is not a reason for them to disappear or distinct even i am sure if we
will stay millions of years,the chickens will be still chickens,except
if the creator want it to be a cow instead.

But that's just silly. We already know and understand how evolution occurs. How is saying "it happens because God wills it" adding to that?

 

[camanintx]

let me put it in the other way.

The origin of birds were the theropod dinosaurs.

Why we cant see anymore the origin,if some chickens will evolved to
birds,but still there will be chickens not able to be evolved but that
is not a reason for them to disappear or distinct even i am sure if we
will stay millions of years,the chickens will be still chickens,except
if the creator want it to be a cow instead.

Individuals don't evolve, populations do. Typically, if a population becomes geographically isolated, it will evolve in a different direction than the other group. Just because the new group is better suited to it's environment doesn't mean the old group will evolve in the same direction.

 

[FearGod]

But that's just silly. We already know and understand how evolution occurs. How is saying "it happens because God wills it" adding to that?

Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else

Actually, we already have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms of evolution. It's the very, very specifics of the process that still elude us, but we do already know that mutations and random selection as the principle causes.

 

[Thief]

So, burning bushes, arks, eternal afterlife, deamons, possession and magic are all easy to believe if God tells you so, but if God tells you that microorganisms exist it's just a step too far?


And you accused ME of making nothing but assumptions. The point is that God could have told people, and apparently chose not to. To chalk that up to the ignorance of the audience of the time is missing the forest for the trees. If they were reasonable and intelligent enough to take God at his word about practically everything else, why would this be an exception? And would it not have been trivial for God to have just passed on that knowledge?


Because God is a liar? And is, apparently, incredibly patronizing?


So, lies are preferable to truth, depending on the time and convenience? You're making a lot of allowances.


And yet this supposed creator was either wrong or lied about how mankind was created? Wouldn't it have been a far better introduction for the creator to accurately outline his method of creation? Wouldn't that have provided definitive proof (or, at least, exceptionally good evidence) of his existence?


There's a difference between "choosing your words" and "completely making something up that is neither true nor accurate".

Making assumption is required....faith has no proving....therefore assumptions.
Can't be avoided...all parties are guilty.

And I see a growing need here to choose what is said.
You have a mindset (of course you do)....
and with that fence in place, we could bang this discussion forever.

So....you think God could just dump a load of science on an eighty year old man and call it a done deal?
Let him wander back down the mountain and explain evolution to a bunch of shepherds?

yeah right!

Burning bushes?....possessions?(apparent)....
If you can see it....why not believe it?
Ancient man saw a lot of things having no explanation.
Hence the assumptions they did have.

Believing in more than this life?...sure they did.
Don't you?
Got proof?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Making assumption is required....faith has no proving....therefore assumptions.
Can't be avoided...all parties are guilty.

And that's why I will never believe the same things as you. Because it requires too many assumptions, too much faith, and too much making excuses for things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

And I see a growing need here to choose what is said.
You have a mindset (of course you do)....
and with that fence in place, we could bang this discussion forever.

So....you think God could just dump a load of science on an eighty year old man and call it a done deal?

He told a guy to build an ark and round up two of every animal. How is an explanation of bacteria any more difficult a thing to relay? Is he not God? Could he not have demonstrated their existence in some capacity? Did he not realize the importance of doing so?

Let him wander back down the mountain and explain evolution to a bunch of shepherds?

Again, why is that such a difficult thing to do? Even if they didn't understand it in the time, at least try to convey the knowledge so that people looking back later on could go "hey, the Bible accurately explains evolution long before we discovered it!"

Again, you seem to be missing the point. According to you, God - rather than explain the truth - lied to every single person that he supposedly explained the origin of mankind to rather than explain the (relatively simple) notion that life changes over time. You really don't seem to think much of the people who wrote the Bible, or God for that matter, if that's what you believe.

yeah right!

Burning bushes?....possessions?(apparent)....
If you can see it....why not believe it?

But a lot of the things he told people they didn't see, such as all the stuff about heaven and hell and all the prophecies. Why couldn't God have just shown them bacteria or fossils?

Ancient man saw a lot of things having no explanation.
Hence the assumptions they did have.

Despite the fact that God could easily have explained it all to them but chose not to?

Believing in more than this life?...sure they did.
Don't you?
Got proof?

Proof of what? Why is it that you assume they were willing to take God's word (or any supposed prophet of God's word) about the history of life, morality and the existence of the supernatural, but the notion of life changing over time or the existence of bacteria are too unbelievable? Why is it that God, an all-powerful being that can do practically anything, cannot conjure up something as simple as a telescope to demonstrate the existence of bacteria?

You are making a whole heap full of assumptions, excuses and allowances for something that is, quite obviously, a big gap in your theology.

 

[FearGod]

Actually, we already have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms of evolution. It's the very, very specifics of the process that still elude us, but we do already know that mutations and random selection as the principle causes.

That very, very specific of the process that still elude from you is the power of god,
which you will not know, even if you will live for billion of years thinking about it.

God had challeneged us to make just one similar living fly as he did.

and if science will achieve that challenge and will do a small living fly,then i will
be very glad to be an athiest because i am sure at that point that god is 100%
not true fact.

 

[FearGod]

He told a guy to build an ark and round up two of every animal. How is an explanation of bacteria any more difficult a thing to relay? Is he not God? Could he not have demonstrated their existence in some capacity? Did he not realize the importance of doing so?

God mention not only the bacteria,but all which we can not see by our eyes

Surah Al-Haaqqa
(37) But nay! I swear by all that ye see (38) And all that ye see not (39) That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! (42) It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

So god swear for all things which we can see by our eyes and for all the one which
we are not able to see,but of course you will not ask god to send us a book of
biology ,physics and chemistry with full details in order to believe him, and he
still saying (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember!

God knows that still many will not believe and will say that is just a sentence
happened to have just a meaning or the one who say it was a diviner and
endless arguments to come out with that god is not a real fact,because
we just think toward one point (how to approve that god is a false),but
we never try to think that he do exist.

 

[Ignite]

God mention not only the bacteria,but all which we can not see by our eyes

Surah Al-Haaqqa
(37) But nay! I swear by all that ye see (38) And all that ye see not (39) That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! (42) It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

So god swear for all things which we can see by our eyes and for all the one which
we are not able to see,but of course you will not ask god to send us a book of
biology ,physics and chemistry with full details in order to believe him, and he
still saying (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember!

God knows that still many will not believe and will say that is just a sentence
happened to have just a meaning or the one who say it was a diviner and
endless arguments to come out with that god is not a real fact,because
we just think toward one point (how to approve that god is a false),but
we never try to think that he do exist.

All the "Scientific revelations" mentioned in the Qur'an are vague and indirect. The example I gave of the word "Durya" can surve to justify my statement. If God wanted humans to develop scientifically, there would be clear statements in the Qur'an to point to these 'revelations'. Instead, all the things mentioned were only correlated after their scientific discovery, and are now claimed to have been said when your prophet was alive.

 

[FearGod]

All the "Scientific revelations" mentioned in the Qur'an are vague and indirect. The example I gave of the word "Durya" can surve to justify my statement. If God wanted humans to develop scientifically, there would be clear statements in the Qur'an to point to these 'revelations'. Instead, all the things mentioned were only correlated after their scientific discovery, and are now claimed to have been said when your prophet was alive.

What you said is meaningless and make no sense at all,the verse is very clear
and people here are not stupids and you will not success in letting them be so,
except for the real stupid ones,god do exist,whether you want to believe it
or not,and he is the one who created the seen things and the unseen things,
but do not try please to fooling the people here because they are not so and
respect their minds at least.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That very, very specific of the process that still elude from you is the power of god,
which you will not know, even if you will live for billion of years thinking about it.

That is a baseless assumption, and an argument from ignorance. It wasn't too long ago that people said that the natural complexity of life was the result of God. Now we know that this is not the case, and that the seeming complexity of life has a natural cause - evolution. However, you still assert that what we do not know can be explained by God. So, what happens when we make those discoveries?

This is called a "God of the gaps" argument, and it is a very common fallacy. No matter how much we find-out about how the Universe works, you can continue to fill any gaps in our knowledge with "God did it".

God had challeneged us to make just one similar living fly as he did.

and if science will achieve that challenge and will do a small living fly,then i will
be very glad to be an athiest because i am sure at that point that god is 100%
not true fact.

It took abiogenesis and evolution billions of years to produce a fly, and you're challenging contemporary scientists to replicate that extremely lengthy and complex process, under laborary conditions, within your lifetime?

That's bizarrely unreasonable.

 

[Ignite]

What you said is meaningless and make no sense at all,the verse is very clear
and people here are not stupids and you will not success in letting them be so,
except for the real stupid ones,god do exist,whether you want to believe it
or not,and he is the one who created the seen things and the unseen things,
but do not try please to fooling the people here because they are not so and
respect their minds at least.

I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا 79:30

دَحَاهَا (Dahaha) was translated as the word 'spread' for many years. The whole verse translates "and thereafter spread the earth". It was recently claimed that this word could have double-meaning, the second being egg-shaped. This is the nature of all the 'scientific revelations' found in the Qur'an, they are vague and bendable. If God wanted humanity to extract scientific knowledge from his book, he would have been more clear.

Surah 79. An-Nazi'at

 

[ImmortalFlame]

God mention not only the bacteria,but all which we can not see by our eyes

Surah Al-Haaqqa
(37) But nay! I swear by all that ye see (38) And all that ye see not (39) That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! (42) It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

Where is any mention of bacteria?

So god swear for all things which we can see by our eyes and for all the one which
we are not able to see,but of course you will not ask god to send us a book of
biology ,physics and chemistry with full details in order to believe him, and he
still saying (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember!

God knows that still many will not believe and will say that is just a sentence
happened to have just a meaning or the one who say it was a diviner and
endless arguments to come out with that god is not a real fact,because
we just think toward one point (how to approve that god is a false),but
we never try to think that he do exist.

You are quite clearly reading heavily into a sentence that doesn't mean anything whatsoever. There is no mention of bacteria there at all.

 

[FearGod]

That is a baseless assumption, and an argument from ignorance. It wasn't too long ago that people said that the natural complexity of life was the result of God. Now we know that this is not the case, and that the seeming complexity of life has a natural cause - evolution. However, you still assert that what we do not know can be explained by God. So, what happens when we make those discoveries?

This is called a "God of the gaps" argument, and it is a very common fallacy. No matter how much we find-out about how the Universe works, you can continue to fill any gaps in our knowledge with "God did it".


It took abiogenesis and evolution billions of years to produce a fly, and you're challenging contemporary scientists to replicate that extremely lengthy and complex process, under laborary conditions, within your lifetime?

That's bizarrely unreasonable.

So you assume that we can do it,but the process should take billions of years to creat
one living fly,it is clear that you understand very well the process of creation and
evolution,i hope you will give us an idea,why it needs billions of years to creat
a living fly,male and female and what we need in the labarotary for a billion of
years plan,i guess we are still wiser than the unconscious nature,we dont
depends on random,but a good scientific plans.

Awaiting for your reply with your plan based on your understanding of creation
and evolution,who knows

 

[McBell]

[/color][/size]
Where is any mention of bacteria?


You are quite clearly reading heavily into a sentence that doesn't mean anything whatsoever. There is no mention of bacteria there at all.

I suspect he presented the wrong verses as those verses clearly predict the creation and rise of Microsoft.

 

[FearGod]

That is a baseless assumption, and an argument from ignorance. It wasn't too long ago that people said that the natural complexity of life was the result of God. Now we know that this is not the case, and that the seeming complexity of life has a natural cause - evolution. However, you still assert that what we do not know can be explained by God. So, what happens when we make those discoveries?

This is called a "God of the gaps" argument, and it is a very common fallacy. No matter how much we find-out about how the Universe works, you can continue to fill any gaps in our knowledge with "God did it".


It took abiogenesis and evolution billions of years to produce a fly, and you're challenging contemporary scientists to replicate that extremely lengthy and complex process, under laborary conditions, within your lifetime?

That's bizarrely unreasonable.

So you assume that we can do it,but the process should take billions of years to creat
one living fly,it is clear that you understand very well the process of creation and
evolution,i hope you will give us an idea,why it needs billions of years to creat
a living fly,male and female and what we need in the labarotary for a billion of
years plan,i guess we are still wiser than the unconscious nature,we dont
depends on random,but a good scientific plans.

Awaiting for your reply with your plan based on your understanding of creation
and evolution,who knows

 

[FearGod]

[/color][/size]
Where is any mention of bacteria?


You are quite clearly reading heavily into a sentence that doesn't mean anything whatsoever. There is no mention of bacteria there at all.

So you want god to send you a complete book of science with full details,
the unseen things are so many my friends,not only bacteria,what about
the virus,what about the rays,so god before 2000 years should had told the people
at that era,that the unseen things are bacteria and it contains so and so...etc.
actually at that era when the prophet told them the unseen,then they accused
him that he is crazy,then what if he told them with much details.

For us it is now accepted that there is things which are unseen,but for that era,
it was source of craziness

 

[McBell]

So you want god to send you a complete book of science with full details,
the unseen things are so many my friends,not only bacteria,what about
the virus,what about the rays,so god before 2000 years should had told the people
at that era,that the unseen things are bacteria and it contains so and so...etc.
actually at that era when the prophet told them the unseen,then they accused
him that he is crazy,then what if he told them with much details.

For us it is now accepted that there is things which are unseen,but for that era,
it was source of craziness

How about god send a book that is not so broad and generalized that you are required to use the Forer Effect in order to "understand" it?

 

[FearGod]

I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence.

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا 79:30

دَحَاهَا (Dahaha) was translated as the word 'spread' for many years. The whole verse translates "and thereafter spread the earth". It was recently claimed that this word could have double-meaning, the second being egg-shaped. This is the nature of all the 'scientific revelations' found in the Qur'an, they are vague and bendable. If God wanted humanity to extract scientific knowledge from his book, he would have been more clear.

Surah 79. An-Nazi'at

You missunderstand the verse which is very clear my friend.

the verse say (And after that He spread the earth)

it is not as you said round,and no one say that god meant to say that this
verse means round,

The actual meaning that god made the earth straight and not zigzag,imagine
that the earth was not extended and made straight for us and to be edges of
mountains and holes of valleys.

my friend,the verse is very clear if you have the intent to understand it.