Evolution & God

[FearGod]

How about god send a book that is not so broad and generalized that you are required to use the Forer Effect in order to "understand" it?

what kind of science is (Forer Effect),was known before 2000 years and
was used wisely at that era,lol

 

[McBell]

what kind of science is (Forer Effect),was known before 2000 years and
was used wisely at that era,lol

the fact that the verse below is clearly talking about Microsoft's Windows Me operating system.

Surah Al-Haaqqa
(37) But nay! I swear by all that ye see (38) And all that ye see not (39) That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! (42) It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.
​

 

[Father Heathen]

I think Muslims share the same creation account as Christians do? or at least pretty similar?

Our account in the Bible at least is pretty vague on the details. There's nothing in evolution that contradicts what is in the Bible, except perhaps to suggest that it all happens randomly. Nothing happens randomly - there is a cause behind every effect.

But evolution isn't "random". Who says that?

But no, the concept of god and the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive. Evolution only conflicts with literal interpretations of creation myths, which aren't prerequisites for theism.

 

[FearGod]

the fact that the verse below is clearly talking about Microsoft's Windows Me operating system.

Surah Al-Haaqqa
(37) But nay! I swear by all that ye see (38) And all that ye see not (39) That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. (40) It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! (41) Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! (42) It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.
​

May i ask you to think first before writing,

The swear is told to the people for that era,before 2000 years,and at that time
the seen and unseen is presented around them,but the people at that time know
only the seen of things.

Sorry,your explanation for Forer effect is not workable here,try another one
so we can believe it,who knows

 

[McBell]

Sorry,your explanation for Forer effect is not workable here,try another one
so we can believe it,who knows

it is not my fault that you are not the least bit interested in learning what the Forer Effect is.

 

[McBell]

May i ask you to think first before writing,

I think you should go learn what the Forer Effect is before you make any more posts about it.

 

[FearGod]

I think you should go learn what the Forer Effect is before you make any more posts about it.

i request a help from a professor to explain to me what Forer Effect means,
he said to me that i will face some difficulties to understand it because it
is very complex and need a good base of knowledge in math and physics,
but he said to me that it is a generalized statement which is vague that
can be applied to many people or things.

But i hope that you will practice it better,because the forer effect in the
verse is not workable with your example,try better one,so we can believe
the forer effect with a better example than Microsoft

 

[McBell]

i request a help from a professor to explain to me what Forer Effect means,
he said to me that i will face some difficulties to understand it because it
is very complex and need a good base of knowledge in math and physics,
but he said to me that it is a generalized statement which is vague that
can be applied to many people or things.

But i hope that you will practice it better,because the forer effect in the
verse is not workable with your example,try better one,so we can believe
the forer effect with a better example than Microsoft

 

[johnhanks]

i request a help from a professor to explain to me what Forer Effect means,
he said to me that i will face some difficulties to understand it because it
is very complex and need a good base of knowledge in math and physics,
but he said to me that it is a generalized statement which is vague that
can be applied to many people or things.

But i hope that you will practice it better,because the forer effect in the
verse is not workable with your example,try better one,so we can believe
the forer effect with a better example than Microsoft

ttruth, this is meant kindly. Just put 'forer effect' into Google.

 

[FearGod]

The actual meaning

Forer Effect

The observation that people give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of
their personality that are said to have been tailored specifically for them,
but which are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people.

The Forer effect partially explains the widespread acceptance of astrology,
fortune telling, and some types of personality tests.

 

[Ignite]

You missunderstand the verse which is very clear my friend.

the verse say (And after that He spread the earth)

it is not as you said round,and no one say that god meant to say that this
verse means round,

The actual meaning that god made the earth straight and not zigzag,imagine
that the earth was not extended and made straight for us and to be edges of
mountains and holes of valleys.

my friend,the verse is very clear if you have the intent to understand it.

Really? so why do your scholars say this is evidence for an "Egg-shaped" world?

[youtube]dSAiPi4gSUU[/youtube]
The Earth's geoid shape - Exposing Dr Zakir Naik (Oxford university) - YouTube

 

[FearGod]

Really? so why do your scholars say this is evidence for an "Egg-shaped" world?

[youtube]dSAiPi4gSUU[/youtube]
The Earth's geoid shape - Exposing Dr Zakir Naik (Oxford university) - YouTube

Zakir Naik is not a scholar and he never studied religion,some facts about him

Some facts about Mr. Zakir Naik

'Dr' Zakir Naik is not and has never has been a 'doctor' in an capacity, either by having PHD honours or as a Medical Doctor ie Physician. In 1991, 20 years ago he passed his medical tests, attaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery (MBBS) from the University of Mumbai, but never even went on to practise medicine in any form. As soon as he finished his medical exams he became a full-time Islamic evangelist. Also your license or registration as a medical 'doctor' gets revoked if you don't keep up with the latests medical developments as new and up to date medical knowledge is always being discovered, Mr. Zakir Naik has not done this. He has simply given himself the 'Dr.' title so that people hold him in higher esteem and think he's more credible person then he is actually is to speak on Islam/religions.

Zakir Naik has not studied Islam formally and doesn't have ANY Islamic qualifications from ANY Islamic institutions. Alot of Muslim brothers and sisters are unaware of this fact that Zakir Naik is NOT an Islamic Academic(as much as he tries to imitate one) like Tariq Ramadan or Abu-Abdullah Adelabuare are. The Imam down the road from where you live who leads prayers for 10 people at Zuhr everyday, who has a BA in Islamic studies is more qualified and a more credible person to speak to/listen to regarding Islam.

Zakir Naik and his ardent devoted fans often boast about his amazing commentary of comparative religion. Yet just like with Islam he doesn't have NO academic qualifications in theology or religious studies to be considered a credible speaker on world religions in a profession/public speaking capacity as he does.

Zakir Naik loves highlighting and pointing out the negative aspects of other religions to the sound of raptorous audience applause and laughter when he openly mocks and bashes other peoples religions and beliefs. As Muslims we are offended by those who bash Islam and expect others to respect our beliefs, so we can't be hypocritical and hold double standards and should condemn & distance ourselves from those who claim they are speaking on behalf of Muslims who disrespect and belittle other peoples religions and beliefs as Zakir Naik regularly does.

Zakir Naik has excellent memory. Memory is a purely a pre-birth attributed genetic trait. Those whose memory is sharp, they never try to understand the subject; they memorize it with the intention to repeat it either in an exam or in front of people to get applause. They mesmerize their audience by display of their memory. They can convert logic into illogic and wisdom into stupidity and vice versa using this method. Over a period of time when they become famous and develop considerable following among masses, they start large scale misinterpretation of facts.

Who can forget when he himself changed the quran when he embarrassingly said the world is egg-shaped. He altered a quran verse to highlight this. Changes the words of Allah is a divine sin. Read as many translations of verse 79:30 as you can, in as many languages as you can, consult as many Sheikhs & Alim-E-Deens as you want and Fusha under-standers too.

What the Quran says: Quran Sura 79 verse 30 - and the earth, moreover hath he extended(to a wide expanse)

Quran Sura 79 verse 30 - Zakir Naik Version - and the Earth, moreover, hath he made egg-shaped !

 

[Ignite]

Zakir Naik is not a scholar and he never studied religion,some facts about him

Some facts about Mr. Zakir Naik

'Dr' Zakir Naik is not and has never has been a 'doctor' in an capacity, either by having PHD honours or as a Medical Doctor ie Physician. In 1991, 20 years ago he passed his medical tests, attaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery (MBBS) from the University of Mumbai, but never even went on to practise medicine in any form. As soon as he finished his medical exams he became a full-time Islamic evangelist. Also your license or registration as a medical 'doctor' gets revoked if you don't keep up with the latests medical developments as new and up to date medical knowledge is always being discovered, Mr. Zakir Naik has not done this. He has simply given himself the 'Dr.' title so that people hold him in higher esteem and think he's more credible person then he is actually is to speak on Islam/religions.

Zakir Naik has not studied Islam formally and doesn't have ANY Islamic qualifications from ANY Islamic institutions. Alot of Muslim brothers and sisters are unaware of this fact that Zakir Naik is NOT an Islamic Academic(as much as he tries to imitate one) like Tariq Ramadan or Abu-Abdullah Adelabuare are. The Imam down the road from where you live who leads prayers for 10 people at Zuhr everyday, who has a BA in Islamic studies is more qualified and a more credible person to speak to/listen to regarding Islam.

Zakir Naik and his ardent devoted fans often boast about his amazing commentary of comparative religion. Yet just like with Islam he doesn't have NO academic qualifications in theology or religious studies to be considered a credible speaker on world religions in a profession/public speaking capacity as he does.

Zakir Naik loves highlighting and pointing out the negative aspects of other religions to the sound of raptorous audience applause and laughter when he openly mocks and bashes other peoples religions and beliefs. As Muslims we are offended by those who bash Islam and expect others to respect our beliefs, so we can't be hypocritical and hold double standards and should condemn & distance ourselves from those who claim they are speaking on behalf of Muslims who disrespect and belittle other peoples religions and beliefs as Zakir Naik regularly does.

Zakir Naik has excellent memory. Memory is a purely a pre-birth attributed genetic trait. Those whose memory is sharp, they never try to understand the subject; they memorize it with the intention to repeat it either in an exam or in front of people to get applause. They mesmerize their audience by display of their memory. They can convert logic into illogic and wisdom into stupidity and vice versa using this method. Over a period of time when they become famous and develop considerable following among masses, they start large scale misinterpretation of facts.

Who can forget when he himself changed the quran when he embarrassingly said the world is egg-shaped. He altered a quran verse to highlight this. Changes the words of Allah is a divine sin. Read as many translations of verse 79:30 as you can, in as many languages as you can, consult as many Sheikhs & Alim-E-Deens as you want and Fusha under-standers too.

What the Quran says: Quran Sura 79 verse 30 - and the earth, moreover hath he extended(to a wide expanse)

Quran Sura 79 verse 30 - Zakir Naik Version - and the Earth, moreover, hath he made egg-shaped !

The example I gave you was just one of the many. I can forward you a multitude of links that point to the debunking of scientific 'evidence' within the Qur'an. The expansion of the universe, The big bang, barrier of salt and sweet water in the sea, all the verses that claim to explain these are vage and ambiguous. Also, I have an intolerance for plagiarism, please provide the link from which you got that article.

The interpretation that it is extended is also just one of the many. If you take a look at the Quran.com interpretation http://quran.com/79/30 you will see that scholars have understood this as "flattening" or "spreading" of the earth", which would in fact contradict modern science.

 

[FearGod]

The example I gave you was just one of the many. I can forward you a multitude of links that point to the debunking of scientific 'evidence' within the Qur'an. The expansion of the universe, The big bang, barrier of salt and sweet water in the sea, all the verses that claim to explain these are vage and ambiguous. Also, I have an intolerance for plagiarism, please provide the link from which you got that article.

The interpretation that it is extended is also just one of the many. If you take a look at the Quran.com interpretation Surat An-Nazi`at [79:30] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ?????? you will see that scholars have understood this as "flattening" or "spreading" of the earth", which would in fact contradict modern science.

i am sorry that i dont have a lot of time to waste for an endless argument with you,
as i can see that you are acting as a programmed machine which is fixed to refuse
any information which may approve that god and his book is a real and your output
is always the same supplying us with some links and false informations.

Jesus himself had suffered with the pharisees

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and as a pretense you make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves.

Matthew 23:16 "Woe to you, you blind guides, who say,'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.'

Matthew 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,

Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone

Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like hidden graves, and the men who walk over them don't know it."

Luke 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them

As you have an intolerance for plagiarism,then the above verses are from a holy
book called the bible,but i am not able to give you a fixed link because they are
many.

This is my last reply to you with my apology,because i know already your fixed program will never changed except if the almighty god guided you to the truth
if you open your heart to him.

 

[Ignite]

i am sorry that i dont have a lot of time to waste for an endless argument with you,
as i can see that you are acting as a programmed machine which is fixed to refuse
any information which may approve that god and his book is a real and your output
is always the same supplying us with some links and false informations.

Jesus himself had suffered with the pharisees

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and as a pretense you make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves.

Matthew 23:16 "Woe to you, you blind guides, who say,'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.'

Matthew 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,

Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone

Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like hidden graves, and the men who walk over them don't know it."

Luke 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them

As you have an intolerance for plagiarism,then the above verses are from a holy
book called the bible,but i am not able to give you a fixed link because they are
many.

This is my last reply to you with my apology,because i know already your fixed program will never changed except if the almighty god guided you to the truth
if you open your heart to him.

Well I guess I won this debate

 

[McBell]

i am sorry that i dont have a lot of time to waste for an endless argument with you,
as i can see that you are acting as a programmed machine which is fixed to refuse
any information which may approve that god and his book is a real and your output
is always the same supplying us with some links and false informations.

Ah, so you are saying he is your polar opposite?

 

[FearGod]

Originally Posted by ImmortalFlame
That is a baseless assumption, and an argument from ignorance. It wasn't too long ago that people said that the natural complexity of life was the result of God. Now we know that this is not the case, and that the seeming complexity of life has a natural cause - evolution. However, you still assert that what we do not know can be explained by God. So, what happens when we make those discoveries?

This is called a "God of the gaps" argument, and it is a very common fallacy. No matter how much we find-out about how the Universe works, you can continue to fill any gaps in our knowledge with "God did it".


It took abiogenesis and evolution billions of years to produce a fly, and you're challenging contemporary scientists to replicate that extremely lengthy and complex process, under laborary conditions, within your lifetime?

That's bizarrely unreasonable.

So you assume that we can do it,but the process should take billions of years to creat
one living fly,it is clear that you understand very well the process of creation and
evolution,i hope you will give us an idea,why it needs billions of years to creat
a living fly,male and female and what we need in the labarotary for a billion of
years plan,i guess we are still wiser than the unconscious nature,we dont
depends on random,but a good scientific plans.

Awaiting for your reply with your plan based on your understanding of creation
and evolution,who knows

Still awaiting for your idea regarding creating a living fly by your knowledge and
understanding of creation and evolution by science in a period of billion of years,
and if we can make it in a shorter time since we depend on science and not in
an unconscious nature.

 

[Ignite]

Still awaiting for your idea regarding creating a living fly by your knowledge and
understanding of creation and evolution by science in a period of billion of years,
and if we can make it in a shorter time since we depend on science and not in
an unconscious nature.

For a species to evolve, you need to provide a change in its natural environment. The chance for two living organisms to have the same genetic make-up is about 2^23, we have random assortment and crossing over to thank for this. When different traits are required to survive in a certain environment, that trait is selected for and will pass down the generations. An example of this would be fur thickness, if it gets too cold, a bear with heavier fur will probably be picked to reproduce. This is how evolution taks place, it is through the process of NATURAL selection, you can't mimic such a thing in a laboratory condition, and even if you could, there is no point, fossiles and sculptures provide sufficient proof. NONE of this is random.

 

[FearGod]

For a species to evolve, you need to provide a change in its natural environment. The chance for two living organisms to have the same genetic make-up is about 2^23, we have random assortment and crossing over to thank for this. When different traits are required to survive in a certain environment, that trait is selected for and will pass down the generations. An example of this would be fur thickness, if it gets too cold, a bear with heavier fur will probably be picked to reproduce. This is how evolution taks place, it is through the process of NATURAL selection, you can't mimic such a thing in a laboratory condition, and even if you could, there is no point, fossiles and sculptures provide sufficient proof. NONE of this is random.

We are talking about creating a living fly in our labs,regarding evolution and your
sample of fur thickness and bear in a very cold place,the one of the heavier fur
will survive and pass it to next generation.

Now i will give you another example of evolution by nature selection,but i need
your explanation why it have been evolved.

The dinosaurs evolved to a small flying bird,now your explanation based on
natural selection,why they evolved,what changes in nature which will make
such changes to the dinosaurs,they lived for millions of years as dinosaurs
and then,without knowing what happened in the day of their extinction
and the appearance of the modern ones later on and even evolved to
all different types of birds which we know today (chicken,duck,ostrich..etc),
now if we ask the evolutionists,can chicken evolved to a small birds and
baths and other types then back to dinosaurs,the answer,sure it can be
done,but the process need millions if not billions of years in order to
happen,but if we will wait for 1000 years,then the chicken is still chicken
and for 2000 years,the chicken still not changed,but when should be the
starting point of evoltion, then the answer is millions of years.

 

[FearGod]

Still awaiting for your scientifical explanation Ignite