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Evolution has never been observed

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Hasn't occurred in this thread, and so is misrepresenting.
No it's not. When I gave you an example of how students the world over observe evolution via a simple lab experiment, you responded, "Stuck my head out the window and didn't observe speciation. Sorry." That's moving the goalposts. You went to "evolution hasn't been observed" to "speciation hasn't been observed".

You're asking if my standard is "someone has to actually observe" in a thread where part of the debate has to do with "what is actually being observed?"

I'll answer that with a yes.

Sorry for being unreasonable.
So can you give an example of anything that's been "observed" by that standard?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You claim that we have not observed new species arise from existing ones and when we give you examples of this you reject them. I'm just trying to determine if we're operating from a common frame of reference.

I have not rejected them. Again, I was reading / scrutinizing material titled, "Observed instances of speciation" and those notes are still found on this thread. As I was going through that material, being very vocal of scrutinizing, a TOE proponents suggested I stop with this material and go with more basic literature on BE. This wasn't suggestion I jumped at, and as noted on this thread, there was back and forth that finally led me to go with other material I am reading / scrutinizing now. As I've said about 5 times now, if there is yet additional material that you would have me read / scrutinize, that I assure you, part of me would love to rip into, I would desire more input on why do I need to make this jump right now? Your claims of "my rejecting evidence" do nothing to motivate me, and instead have me explain what this paragraph is explaining and has already explained about 5 times in this thread, possibly as many as 10 times.

Scientists have repeatedly derived new species of plants and animals so it can't be that hard, can it?

This in response to, "what is easily observed?"
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
When I gave you an example of how students the world over observe evolution via a simple lab experiment, you responded, "Stuck my head out the window and didn't observe speciation. Sorry." That's moving the goalposts. You went to "evolution hasn't been observed" to "speciation hasn't been observed".

This is misrepresentation of the dialogue that has occurred, and is still visible on this thread (I think).

So can you give an example of anything that's been "observed" by that standard?

Yes.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
***Mod post***

Negative, off topic personal remarks are against the rules. Please stick to discussing/debating the topic of the thread.​
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This is misrepresentation of the dialogue that has occurred, and is still visible on this thread (I think).
And here we go again.

My Post #253:

"As I and others have pointed out, evolution is so trivially easy to demonstrate, it's done in basic BIO 101 courses in most universities. You simply take a single-clone strain of E. coli that's susceptible to ampicillin, culture it in a petri dish that is half neutral and half ampicillin-infused, let them reproduce for a few generations, and eventually you will have some E. coli growing in the antibiotic. In better programs, you can even identify the specific genetic change that caused the new trait.

So again, if you're really interested in observed evolution, get off this religious internet forum and stick your head out the damned window.
"

Your response in the very next post:

"Stuck my head out the window and didn't observe speciation. Sorry."

Such as?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
And here we go again.

My Post #253:

"As I and others have pointed out, evolution is so trivially easy to demonstrate, it's done in basic BIO 101 courses in most universities. You simply take a single-clone strain of E. coli that's susceptible to ampicillin, culture it in a petri dish that is half neutral and half ampicillin-infused, let them reproduce for a few generations, and eventually you will have some E. coli growing in the antibiotic. In better programs, you can even identify the specific genetic change that caused the new trait.

So again, if you're really interested in observed evolution, get off this religious internet forum and stick your head out the damned window.
"

Your response in the very next post:

"Stuck my head out the window and didn't observe speciation. Sorry."

And here is how that looked in the post I made, exactly.

Acim,

What you're doing is the equivalent of saying, "Rain has never been observed", and then spending the next month trying to discuss websites that cover ocean currents, global climates, wind patterns, the Coriolis Effect, etc., when all you had to do was go somewhere where it was raining and stick your head out the window.

Stuck my head out the window and didn't observe speciation. Sorry.

You and I know speciation isn't 'easily observed,' but you want me to read the things that amount to 'covering ocean currents' so I can readily agree with your position.

Since your opening statement "what you're doing..." was mockery of what is being done, I came back with mockery of your mock position.


Sorry, you have proven to be someone who is incapable of having a reasonable dialogue with. If you admit to what I have above as within reason of what was stated earlier, and that you later misrepresented this, I will feel the dialogue between us could be reasonable. Otherwise, it feels pointless to answer this question, which I have answer all prepared to give, but feels to me like we'd go back and forth over stuff you continue to misrepresent.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, continuing on main vein of this thread, and going from post #239.

In this material, we are still in section 2 of 7, titled "Patterns."

And in this post, I'm continuing with subsection titled, "Tree Building." This post will address the page titled, "Homologies and Analogies."

Homologies and Analogies

Since a phylogenetic tree is a hypothesis about evolutionary relationships, we want to use characters that are reliable indicators of common ancestry to build that tree. We use homologous characters—characters in different organisms that are similar because they were inherited from a common ancestor that also had that character. An example of homologous characters is the four limbs of tetrapods. Birds, bats, mice, and crocodiles all have four limbs. Sharks and bony fish do not. The ancestor of tetrapods evolved four limbs, and its descendents have inherited that feature—so the presence of four limbs is a homology.

1 - Model is a hypothesis (supposed explanation)
2 - Characters in model are desired to be reliable indicators of what is allegedly being explained (based on supposition)
3 - We use characters that appear the same / similar
4 - This is how we know there is common ancestry

How do you say, stacking the deck? Or, more accurately, preconceived notions being used as guide to have evidence tell you what you want to hear?

Not all characters are homologies. For example, birds and bats both have wings, while mice and crocodiles do not. Does that mean that birds and bats are more closely related to one another than to mice and crocodiles? No. When we examine bird wings and bat wings closely, we see that there are some major differences.

Yep, got that.

Bat wings consist of flaps of skin stretched between the bones of the fingers and arm. Bird wings consist of feathers extending all along the arm. These structural dissimilarities suggest that bird wings and bat wings were not inherited from a common ancestor with wings. This idea is illustrated by the phylogeny below, which is based on a large number of other characters.

Not sure I agree with what the dissimilarity suggests (to some, many). Pretty sure it won't matter to me in long run of what TOE aims at, and what this thread is about.

Again, this is about understanding patterns utilized within larger model (ancestral tree).

Bird and bat wings are analogous—that is, they have separate evolutionary origins, but are superficially similar because they evolved to serve the same function. Analogies are the result of convergent evolution.

Just a tad too simplistic for my tastes on first part of this quote, but again, not highly interested in discussing this, and so far no one on this thread cares to discuss this stuff, so I think I'm good to go.

Convergent evolution strikes me as very interesting concept. Saying, it is "acquisition of the same biological trait in unrelated lineages." (according to Wikipedia)

Same trait seems fairly significant. I'll even be glad to stick to 'fairly similar' instead.
And unrelated lineages seems huge, though admittedly I'm reading into that as if there isn't one common ancestor for all forms, for if there is or was, then all lineages would ultimately be related and this statement would be challenging to reconcile with that assertion of common ancestry.

But apart from all the mundane technicalities, it seems somewhere between oddly coincidental and plausibly design by conscious selection to have fairly similar designs in vastly different regions where lineages are determined not easily connected.

Interestingly, though bird and bat wings are analogous as wings, as forelimbs they are homologous. Birds and bats did not inherit wings from a common ancestor with wings, but they did inherit forelimbs from a common ancestor with forelimbs.

Too simplistic for my tastes, and not really telling me much other than we have these observable patterns in species, some of which are similar and believed to be traced to common ancestor and some of which are also similar but not believed to be from common ancestor.

Again, in this portion that I covered, the word "observe" or "observation" does not appear. But the words "see" and "examine" appeared in area that is bolded in above quotes. I think we are making some progress on that front.

Next up for this material is still in "Tree Building" and is section titled, "Recognizing Homologies," which I'll get to in next post.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Acim,

Despite your continual lurching back to semantic games whenever cornered, the fact remains: Evolution has indeed been observed to occur and is so trivially easy to observe, freshman biology students do so in universities the world over.

If every time someone brings this up, your only recourse is engage in gameplay or invoke ridiculous standards for "observation", that is clear evidence of the inherent weakness of your position.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If every time someone brings this up, your only recourse is engage in gameplay or invoke ridiculous standards for "observation", that is clear evidence of the inherent weakness of your position.

I am not engaging in gameplay, I am engaging in topic of this thread, and addressing each and everyone who comes in with intent to discuss that. Up until recently, I was addressing everyone, but things done changed and so we are playing under new rules.

I have evidence on this thread from several that are statements - 'evolution isn't directly observed.'

So far I am the skeptic in room saying I could go either and as long as we are not able to directly observe it, the straw-man stands.

If you are tired of hearing that or feel it amounts to something ridiculous, plus have no desire to discuss material that I am scrutinizing, I will again ask you to kindly leave this thread. If you continue to stay and offer up misrepresentative commentary, I'll be sure to address that.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Right...right....

So when I specify the sort of lab experiment that's conducted every year in universities across the world, one that demonstrates observable evolution, and tell you "So stick your head out the window and look", and then you respond with "Stuck my head out the window, and didn't see speciation", you're not engaging in gameplay. LOL!

You can resolve this by answering one simple question: After I explained this experimental procedure, why did you bring up speciation at all? I never mentioned it.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
I have evidence on this thread from several that are statements - 'evolution isn't directly observed.'

If your problem is "evolution isn't directly observed", I don't think you will solve it here. I mean, no matter how much we shout "IT IS OBSERVED" because that will be pointless to you.

I encourage you to try to speak with a biologist of a high school or university and ask him if he can show you an experiment to observe evolution so you can clear your doubts.

As an alternative, you could try to find this experiment recorded on youtube, maybe you succeed.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You can resolve this by answering one simple question: After I explained this experimental procedure, why did you bring up speciation at all? I never mentioned it.

You want a cookie for not mentioning it?

It was me referencing earlier posts on this thread (by me), as I actually have interest in debating the topic from material that is presented in another thread. As noted in OP, and on this thread only about 47 times.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If your problem is "evolution isn't directly observed", I don't think you will solve it here. I mean, no matter how much we shout "IT IS OBSERVED" because that will be pointless to you.

It is not pointless. I am seriously just going by material presented in another thread by TOE proponents. I honestly didn't really know there was straw-man for sure until reading that material and as noted earlier thought it would be funky title for side-discussion thread. I could say I kinda sorta thought that straw-man would be out there / around in Creationist circles, but since I don't hang in those circles, I was (still am) more or less interested in exploring debate with sense of scrutiny applied to TOE side of things. And going through the material in that other thread matters to me, at least a little bit. I have around 12 posts right now to back up my claim of interest.

I encourage you to try to speak with a biologist of a high school or university and ask him if he can show you an experiment to observe evolution so you can clear your doubts.

As an alternative, you could try to find this experiment recorded on youtube, maybe you succeed.

I may just do that.

For now, I'm going with the doctrine, er, I mean literature that is cited in the other thread. Seems more conducive to discourse on a discussion forum.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
It was me referencing earlier posts on this thread (by me), as I actually have interest in debating the topic from material that is presented in another thread. As noted in OP, and on this thread only about 47 times.
So you start a thread, title it "Evolution has never been observed", but then when people give you examples of observed evolution you only want to talk about speciation.

Thank you for making my point for me.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, continuing on main vein of this thread, and going from post #269.

In this material, we are still in section 2 of 7, titled "Patterns."

And in this post, I'm continuing with subsection titled, "Tree Building." This post will address the sub-page titled, "Recognizing Homologies."

Recognizing Homologies​

Biologists use a few criteria to help them decide whether a shared morphological character (such as the presence of four limbs) is likely to be a homology:

Same basic structure
The same bones (though differently shaped) support the limbs of mice and crocodiles. In the illustration of forelimbs at left, homologous bones are colored alike.

Does not explain what makes them homologous. But tautology is good like that.

Same relationship to other features
The limb bones are connected to the skeleton in similar ways in different tetrapods. The joint between the femur and the pelvis has a ball-and-socket structure which is typical of tetrapods, as shown in the crocodile to the left.

Does not explain what makes them homologous. To be clear with what I'm getting at, we are that which is determining the homology, and not something that is objective (read as independent of human mind, scientific bias). Feeds right into notion that we are finding intelligence in the design that either a) fits our preconceived notion(s) and/or b) nature, through us, is providing evidence of intelligent design at work. This is also preconceived notion, though doesn't necessarily start with us (instead starts with nature, apart from human mind). Take your pick, either one works for me.

Same development
The limbs of all tetrapods develop from limb buds in similar ways (see below).

I'll see below, while you see above.

These criteria help biologists tentatively identify homologous morphological characters that are likely to be reliable indicators of shared ancestry.

IOW, the deck is stacked to find what we expect to find based on preconceived notions.

Again, in this portion that I covered, the word "observe" or "observation" does not appear.

Next up for this material is still in "Tree Building" and is section titled, "Using Parsimony," which I'll get to in next post.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Housekeeping update. I had hoped to do this with OP, but I can (for some reason) no longer edit that post. So perhaps I will have to do this sort of housekeeping periodically in this thread.

Here are the posts (by me) in this thread that are intended to be in line with OP:

  • Post #3: Evolution has never been observed (Part 1)
  • Post #4: Evolution has never been observed (Part 2)
  • Post #7: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 1)
  • Post #48: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 2)
  • Post #60: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 3)
  • Post #74: Re: Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 4)
  • Post #85: Summary understanding of Observed Instances of Speciation (Part 1)
  • Post #98: Re: Evolution 101 (Intro)
  • Post #100: Re: Evolution 101 - Definition (Part 1)
  • Post #104: Re: Evolution 101 - Definition (Part 2)
  • Post #121: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns (Part 1)
  • Post #150: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns (Part 2)
  • Post #202: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Phylogenies (Part 1 and 2)
  • Post #237: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Phylogenetic Starbursts
  • Post #239: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 1)
  • Post #269: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 2)
  • Post #277: Re: Evolution 101 - Patterns - Tree Building (Part 3)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So you start a thread, title it "Evolution has never been observed", but then when people give you examples of observed evolution you only want to talk about speciation.
Thank you for making my point for me.
It seems incontrovertible that evolution has been observed.
It's that some say more should've been seen.
Time will cure that demand.
 
The thing is that the timescale evolution operates in will not allow us to see, for example, the development from a carnivorous wolf-like mammal to a whale.
The examples that can, and are, presented are therefore mostly historical, where we sometimes have a large set of fossils showing very gradual change that we deduce is evolution at work.

The seeing evolution at work rests on our ability to see;
The mutations that can be beneficial for survival
The variations in species that can be comparably beneficial for survival
The radioactive decay that then shows the periods of time required for beneficial traits to dominate the gene pool
And very rarely natural selection changing which set of genes is dominant in a gene pool.

What Darwin essentially did was consider if the same basic methods humans use in artificial selection could happen naturally. I think it is clear that they can.
Then we check if there is a process that sufficiently changes the genetics of a single species which would allow changes in such a scale as seen in evolution. That we have done.
Then we see, and test, if there are sufficient variations in genes that can allow certain traits to emerge, which again only needs to rest upon artifical selection.

Finally we have the rare tests in bacteria that we can observe, where lab work shows changes, without speciation(note the timescale), of the general properties of the bacteria, as the very second post in this thread showed.

Thus the sum of these observations and inferences allow us to conclude that, within reasonable doubt, evolution through natural selection can happen, and with that we conclude that this theory is the most likely explanation for the variance of life on earth.
 
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