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Evolution has never been observed

idav

Being
Premium Member
IOW, the deck is stacked to find what we expect to find based on preconceived notions.
You have a better explanation than evolution lets hear it. The evidence wasn't planted to make it look like evolution is a viable theory. It is a viable theory as long as we keep finding evidence that supports it over and over again. The timeline shows that the earth did not start with "many kinds" The more evidence we find the more we see that species always have a previous link to other species. When the theory of evolution came about, we didn't have all the evidence we have now but for some weird coincidence the evidence keeps fitting the data over and over and the trend doesn't look like it will stop.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
So you read a section on what a homology is.... and you dismiss the definition and say they don't explain what a homology is?

well... I guess that does show that your deck is stacked on a preconceived notion. :facepalm:

wa:do
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Well, that is helpful to know that [the concept of what constitutes a species] isn't exactly something that is clear cut, even while some proponents of TOE may think it is.
Can you please link us to a reputable source where 'proponents of TOE' declare that the concept of what constitutes a species is clear-cut?

In passing, we might note that the lack of 'clear-cut-ness' in what constitutes a species is far more consistent with evolutionary theory than with biblical creationism.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You have a better explanation than evolution lets hear it.

Perhaps someday you will. For now, I'll stick in this thread with scrutinizing existing theory and understanding.

The evidence wasn't planted to make it look like evolution is a viable theory.

Nice straw-man. I didn't say this was the case.

I am saying the evidence is looked at in a pre-conceived way, to reach a conclusion that is more or less pre-determined.

It is a viable theory as long as we keep finding evidence that supports it over and over again.

IMO, the part I addressed that you derived your quote (by me) from is depicting a very shallow theory (common ancestry) that is supported by pre-conceived notions (that we identify homologous characters and use that as indicators for the theory).

The timeline shows that the earth did not start with "many kinds"

The timeline being a model of reality, since reality is we can't directly observe this.

The more evidence we find the more we see that species always have a previous link to other species.

I already addressed this.

When the theory of evolution came about, we didn't have all the evidence we have now but for some weird coincidence the evidence keeps fitting the data over and over and the trend doesn't look like it will stop.

Yep, pre-conceived notions about 'evidence' are good like that.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Can you please link us to a reputable source where 'proponents of TOE' declare that the concept of what constitutes a species is clear-cut?

No. Though for sake of proponents of TOE, I kinda wish it were the case. Such that in the following debate, it would appear differently than my completely made up hypothetical:

Proponent: Evolution is a fact whether you care to believe it or not.
Skeptic: Hmmm, it seems to me the theory isn't even clear cut on what constitutes a species.
Proponent: Fail. You need to become informed, because you simply are ignorant on this topic. The definition of what constitutes a species is a very clear concept with those of us who study Evolution regularly. It's just sad when idiots like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, continuing on main vein of this thread, and going from post #277.

In this material, we are still in section 2 of 7, titled "Patterns."

And in this post, I'm continuing with subsection titled, "Tree Building." This post will address the sub-page titled, "Using Parsimony (Parts 1 and 2)."


Using Parsimony (1 of 2)​

After studying some major vertebrate lineages and limiting the data to characters that are likely homologous, you might end up with the following evidence (note that there are many vertebrate lineages and many characters excluded from this example for the sake of simplicity):

Good to know that we would limit the data. You know to make things easier to fit our conclusion. Also, 'likely homologous' seems like a fairly accurate way to go. I'm likely being facetious here.

Anyway, the key here is a table is presented to help identify patterns between species. On the x axis is list of about a half dozen animal types, and on y axis is a half dozen characteristics with notations made whether animal has that characteristic (yes or no). This is how shared characteristics are identified.

From studying fossils and lineages closely related to the vertebrate clade, we hypothesize that the ancestor of vertebrates had none of these features:

Another table, 1 animal type (the pre-conceived ancestor) with determination that none of the characteristics are found in this hypothetical animal. Again, just setting up hypothetical pattern at this point to aid in understanding.

To build a phylogenetic tree from these data, we must base our clades on shared derived characters—not shared ancestral characters. Since we have a good idea of what the ancestral characters are (see above), this is not so hard. We might start out by examining the egg character. We focus in on the group of lineages that share the derived form of this character (an amniotic egg) and hypothesize that they form a clade:

Thus a characteristic becomes a junction point for a clade. All those with yes (characteristic is shared) go to this clade (say on left), all those with no (not shared) go to other clade (say on right). Just trying to make sense of both our pre-conceived notions and observations that seem to be consistent from animal to animal, er, I mean species to species.

If we go through the whole table like this, grouping clades according to shared derived characters, we get the following hypothesis:

That the characteristics we identify form a family tree... of our own making.

Of course, this was just an example of the tree-building process. Phylogenetic trees are generally based on many more characters and often involve more lineages. For example, biologists reconstructing relationships between 499 lineages of seed plants began with more than 1400 molecular characters!

I'm sure the more details, the easier it is to overwhelm the reader with the sleight of hand understanding that is occurring here. Again, that understanding being that we are the determiner of what a) makes for a characteristic and b) what also makes for similar characteristic. The leap to derived shared characteristic is an interesting one especially when one attempts to remove both our intelligence and our designs from the hypothesis that is making up this process (model).

Using Parsimony (2 of 2)​

What is parsimony?

The tree-building process explained above is based on the principle of parsimony. The parsimony principle is basic to all science and tells us to choose the simplest scientific explanation that fits the evidence. In terms of tree-building, that means that the best hypothesis is the one that requires the fewest evolutionary changes.

Sorry for using the concept of pre-conceived notion when parsimony is much more to the point. The fewer the (new) assumptions, the more right we are likely to be.

For example, we could compare the following hypotheses about vertebrate relationships using the parsimony principle:

Hypothesis 1 requires six evolutionary changes and Hypothesis 2 requires seven evolutionary changes, with a bony skeleton evolving independently, twice. Although both fit the available data, the parsimony principle says that Hypothesis 1 is better—since it does not hypothesize unnecessarily complicated changes.

IOW, the more simple we can make the model, the less confusing it will be.

This principle was implicit in the tree-building process we went through earlier. However, in most cases, the data are more complex than those used in our example and may point to several different phylogenetic hypotheses. In those cases, the parsimony principle can help us choose between them.

Seems simplistic enough.

Again, in this portion that I covered, the word "observe" or "observation" does not appear. Though the word "examining" does appear once to help convey how particular characteristics may form a theoretical relationship.

Next up for this material is still in "Patterns" and is section titled, "Classification," which I'll get to in next post.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Where are you getting this from?
From the fact that a homology is defined and then further explained... and your statement that it isn't and is a preconceived notion.... while totally dismissing/ignoring everything you just quoted.

Essentially following through on your prestated insistence that it's all preconceived. :sarcastic

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
You don't seem to grasp the basic concept of homology... so i suppose trying to advance into parsimony is only going to be confusing....
Which is likely leading to your cherry picked and misleading conclusions.

You also seem unable to grasp that the features being discussed are observable... they don't have to use the word observe, because they are showing you what is being observed. You can't compare limbs without observing them! :facepalm:

wa:do
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Perhaps someday you will. For now, I'll stick in this thread with scrutinizing existing theory and understanding.
Scrutinizing is all good but complaining that we need more evidence doesn't change the facts your scrutinizing which line up well with evolution better than any other hypothesis you can come up with.


Nice straw-man. I didn't say this was the case.

I am saying the evidence is looked at in a pre-conceived way, to reach a conclusion that is more or less pre-determined.
And I said that we came up with the idea barely with circumstantial evidence which over the last 100 years has turned into solid evidence from every field in science.

IMO, the part I addressed that you derived your quote (by me) from is depicting a very shallow theory (common ancestry) that is supported by pre-conceived notions (that we identify homologous characters and use that as indicators for the theory).
Creation was the preconceived notion not evolution. It took evidence to show all of us creationists from birth the error of our ways. And the evidence just keeps piling up.
The timeline being a model of reality, since reality is we can't directly observe this.
So you can't observe time?:areyoucra

Doesn't change the fact that the evidence is against the creation of many kinds to support your micro rather than macro view of evolution.

I already addressed this.
We don't preconcieve that we get the traits of our ancestors that have been modified do to mutations. These are just facts.

Yep, pre-conceived notions about 'evidence' are good like that.
Science doesn't have to go by any false premises. Show me what premise is false that even puts a dent in the theory. Complaining we need more science to explain our science still doesn't do creation any favors.
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by johnhanks
Can you please link us to a reputable source where 'proponents of TOE' declare that the concept of what constitutes a species is clear-cut?

No. Though for sake of proponents of TOE, I kinda wish it were the case. Such that in the following debate, it would appear differently than my completely made up hypothetical:

Proponent: Evolution is a fact whether you care to believe it or not.
Skeptic: Hmmm, it seems to me the theory isn't even clear cut on what constitutes a species.
Proponent: Fail. You need to become informed, because you simply are ignorant on this topic. The definition of what constitutes a species is a very clear concept with those of us who study Evolution regularly. It's just sad when idiots like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
Interesting that you accuse others of constructing straw men.

The definition of what constitutes a species is far from clear; but what is clear to 'those of us who study Evolution regularly' is that the very fuzziness of the species concept is an inevitable outcome of the evolutionary process as we currently understand it. It would be far more problematic for ToE if species really were completely clear-cut entities.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
From the fact that a homology is defined and then further explained... and your statement that it isn't and is a preconceived notion.... while totally dismissing/ignoring everything you just quoted.

Again, I'm requesting that you link me to where you are finding this on the thread.

Thanks.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You also seem unable to grasp that the features being discussed are observable... they don't have to use the word observe, because they are showing you what is being observed.

I agree they don't have to use the word observe. I am just desiring that it be done.

You can't compare limbs without observing them!

You can perhaps in the hypothetical part that is this chapter on Patterns.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Scrutinizing is all good but complaining that we need more evidence doesn't change the facts your scrutinizing which line up well with evolution better than any other hypothesis you can come up with.

Where did I complain that we need more evidence?

And I said that we came up with the idea barely with circumstantial evidence which over the last 100 years has turned into solid evidence from every field in science.

Doesn't take away anything from what I said. But thanks for your contribution.

Creation was the preconceived notion not evolution.

I would say both are pre-conceived.

It took evidence to show all of us creationists from birth the error of our ways. And the evidence just keeps piling up.

Okay. Not sure what error you are referring to, but it seems like it pleases you. I am happy for you.

So you can't observe time?

Doesn't address what I stated.

Doesn't change the fact that the evidence is against the creation of many kinds to support your micro rather than macro view of evolution.

I think you may have me mistaken with someone who actually cares deeply about old school creation.

We don't preconcieve that we get the traits of our ancestors that have been modified do to mutations. These are just facts.

Doesn't address what I was referring to.

Science doesn't have to go by any false premises. Show me what premise is false that even puts a dent in the theory.

Preconceived doesn't (necessarily) mean false. So, let me know what you are asking for.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Interesting that you accuse others of constructing straw men.

Interesting because it is accurate, or interesting because I constructed a hypothetical that is pretty much spot on, but you wish to deny it as misrepresentation? How about I PM you when this hypothetical I came up with happens? I'm sure the words won't be exact, but the gist of it will be very similar. It will be proponent of TOE countering the exact statement of, " the theory isn't even clear cut on what constitutes a species," with some assertion that implies that the concept is fairly clear to those who are 'in the know.'

Funny, to me, that you doubt this.

The definition of what constitutes a species is far from clear; but what is clear to 'those of us who study Evolution regularly' is that the very fuzziness of the species concept is an inevitable outcome of the evolutionary process as we currently understand it. It would be far more problematic for ToE if species really were completely clear-cut entities.

Believe me, I get what you're saying. But it seems to fly in the face of:
a) accuracy that proponents of science generally pride the discipline on
b) other disciplines where unclear key concepts are seen as inherent weakness to that discipline (especially from proponents of hardcore rationalism)

I do think of it as 'really good' that there be fuzziness around this concept, but I truly do believe there are proponents who will argue this very point in course of debate as if implied fuzziness is entirely resting on the ignorance of those who don't get (agree with or support fully) TOE. For you, or anyone reading this, to suggest I'm simply making this up without any evidence, does humor me. I'd really like to test it out, though feel it could be challenging to test on this site because of this post I've just written. But maybe not. May have to wait a little while for the opportunity to present itself.
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Interesting because it is accurate, or interesting because I constructed a hypothetical that is pretty much spot on, but you wish to deny it as misrepresentation? How about I PM you when this hypothetical I came up with happens? I'm sure the words won't be exact, but the gist of it will be very similar. It will be proponent of TOE countering the exact statement of, " the theory isn't even clear cut on what constitutes a species," with some assertion that implies that the concept is fairly clear to those who are 'in the know.'
I'll await the PM with interest; I have yet to meet a well-informed biologist who claims the species concept is cut-and-dried. (And yes, I have noticed the danger of a no-true-Scotsman fallacy lurking in that last sentence, but have decided to let it stand.)
Believe me, I get what you're saying. But it seems to fly in the face of:
a) accuracy that proponents of science generally pride the discipline on
b) other disciplines where unclear key concepts are seen as inherent weakness to that discipline (especially from proponents of hardcore rationalism)
Again, it seems to me you're missing the point here. What I referred to as the 'fuzziness' of the species concept is not a reflection of biology's failure to be sufficiently rigorous; it is inherent in the very process of speciation that populations will be found with varying degrees of genetic isolation from each other, and there is no clear line to mark the point at which they have become different species.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I would say both are pre-conceived.

Then you are wrong. Evolution was the conclusion reached via study of the available evidence, and we stand by it now not because of any preconceptions about it or anything else, but because it is simply what the facts show, and it is just good, honest science to stand by the facts.

Believe me, I get what you're saying. But it seems to fly in the face of:
a) accuracy that proponents of science generally pride the discipline on
Science, generally, isn't accurate. There is no other discipline in the world which prides itself on admitting when it doesn't know something. Regardless, why should the broadness of a single definition with science reflect negatively on science as a whole? I defy you to come up with a better and more accurate definition of species than what we have now. Clue: it's not easy.

b) other disciplines where unclear key concepts are seen as inherent weakness to that discipline (especially from proponents of hardcore rationalism)
And why should we care what happens in other disciplines? That's completely irrelevant.

I do think of it as 'really good' that there be fuzziness around this concept, but I truly do believe there are proponents who will argue this very point in course of debate as if implied fuzziness is entirely resting on the ignorance of those who don't get (agree with or support fully) TOE. For you, or anyone reading this, to suggest I'm simply making this up without any evidence, does humor me. I'd really like to test it out, though feel it could be challenging to test on this site because of this post I've just written. But maybe not. May have to wait a little while for the opportunity to present itself.
Good idea. When your argument is based on absolutely nothing whatsoever, just invent a hypothetical leg to stand on. That will certainly make your point more compelling.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Again, I'm requesting that you link me to where you are finding this on the thread.

Thanks.
" We use homologous characters—characters in different organisms that are similar because they were inherited from a common ancestor that also had that character."

"Not all characters are homologies. For example, birds and bats both have wings, while mice and crocodiles do not."
dot_clear.gif


"Bird and bat wings are analogous—that is, they have separate evolutionary origins, but are superficially similar because they evolved to serve the same function. Analogies are the result of convergent evolution.
Interestingly, though bird and bat wings are analogous as wings, as forelimbs they are homologous. Birds and bats did not inherit wings from a common ancestor with wings, but they did inherit forelimbs from a common ancestor with forelimbs."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIC1Homologies.shtml

The entire page you talked about with homologies was a list of observed characteristics (ie. more details on the definition of) homologies have: Shared structure, shared relationship, shared development. These are not features that analogous structures have.
Evolution 101: Recognizing and Using Homologies

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I agree they don't have to use the word observe. I am just desiring that it be done.
NO, you are harping on the lack of the word and implying that it means they are making stuff up. You aren't exactly being subtle about it.

You can perhaps in the hypothetical part that is this chapter on Patterns.
No you can't.

You also missed/ignored this simple but key statement in the section on parsimony: From studying fossils and lineages closely related to the vertebrate clade, we hypothesize that the ancestor of vertebrates had none of these features:
You go on to declare that the ancestor was simply made up out of nothing but whimsy when in reality it is based on observation of the fossil record as well as living creatures that are close to being vertebrates.

wa:do
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Evolution was the conclusion reached via study of the available evidence, and we stand by it now not because of any preconceptions about it or anything else, but because it is simply what the facts show, and it is just good, honest science to stand by the facts.

Disagree it is conclusions made from available evidence as if pre-conceived notions have nothing to do with said conclusions. But you're level of denial will be likely to challenging for me to overcome. Maybe not.

Science, generally, isn't accurate. There is no other discipline in the world which prides itself on admitting when it doesn't know something.

Yeah, this kind of hyperbole may work in some venues. Not with me. There are plenty of philosophies and a few theosophies that are very good about admitting when something is not known.

Proponents of science I often find myself in discussion with, even on this site, paint a different picture than one you are drawing up. I like the one you are drawing, but it counters my experience.

I'll be glad though to drop your name on this site when I am in discussion where some materialism scientist type is saying something along lines of, "science is best explanation around, because accuracy of data matters, and is what makes science much better than the rest, where inaccuracy is allowed." Or something in that vein. I'll be glad to say, "but ImmortalFlame says 'Science, generally, isn't accurate." I'll let you know how that works out.

I defy you to come up with a better and more accurate definition of species than what we have now. Clue: it's not easy.

As I said earlier in this thread, folk definition works for me, and doesn't seem all that different (really) from the other fuzzy version we like to pretend is better.

And why should we care what happens in other disciplines? That's completely irrelevant.

Well, here in 'creationism vs. evolution' I would say it is not completely irrelevant. Also, you and many others like you, keep making hyperbolic references to notion that 'science is best of what's around. Go ahead, show me another discipline that does what science does. I dare you.' And in course of many debates, it just comes up where say someone says, 'this concept is good way of putting things,' and another comes along (who also happens to be proponent of evolution) and says, 'the concept is not a good way of putting things since it not very well defined and given the many interpretations is fuzzy. Science wouldn't allow that sort of thing.'
 
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