Evolution is False and Impossible

[Autodidact]

overwhelming evidence doesnt immediately mean truth though. there was overwhelming evidence that the earth was flat because the ground was flat, if the world was a sphere then we'd all slide off and fall into space. we now now thats utter BS.

The initial evidence seemed to favor a flat earth, until we gathered more of it. Eventually all of the new evidence supported a round earth, so the old theory (flat) was overturned in favor of the new theory. In the same way, the old theory (special creation) was overturned in favor of the new theory (evolution) over 100 years ago.

same could happen with evolution, how do we know that in hundreds or thousands of years they discover that evolution was not the only way life changed? we cant. everything we now know to be true could be disproved a centuary down the line.

Yup. So science is impossible and you're not really reading this on a computer, right?

 

[Autodidact]

Rather than generalize "theists who don't understand evolution," we should probably stick to the more likely generalization "people who weren't listening in Biology class."

Or even "People who stick their fingers in their ears and hum loudly whenever biology is mentioned, but persist in asserting that they know all about it anyway."

 

[Valjean]

Humans are considered to be the most complex creatures we know of not because of their bodily structure but because of the upper thought processes and self-awareness. While other animals have attained self-awareness (Dolphins, Pigs, Apes, and Elephants being the most noteable examples), not to the extent humans are. As well, humans evolve more slowly because of the small amount of young we produce, the fact that we inhibit natural selection among our race, and as you said, we modify our environment for most people to create complacency and therefore no need to adapt/change.
The complexity of humans isn't leaps and bounds over that of other complex creatures, but it is still above the rest. The only real complexity difference would be in our brains. But when considering bodily structure, humans are indeed no more complex than any other complex creature.

I am aware that virus' do not reproduce, but it was an offhand comment and trivial to differentiate between two things that are the same in result but not process.

Complexity is a function of anatomy, biochemistry, &c, not psychology or intellectual abilities, Morse. My cat, for example, has a more complex eye than mine, and the pigeon has structures that enable it to function as a living GPS. Their anatomy and physiology are just as complex as mine.

 

[Morse]

I will concede to that for now. But that does not change the fact that our psychological and intellectual abilities have inhibited our evolution.

 

[Jose Fly]

isn't evolution a slow process that takes millions of years to see the changes?

i guess evolution itself has evolved, from a slow process to a rather quick one.

"Evolution" simply means changes in allele frequencies in populations over time. "Alleles" are types of genes (speaking basically).

Even looking at humans, we are constantly evolving. It's estimated that every human zygote has ~100 to 200 mutations. That means every single person on earth is born with a suite of mutations. That means every generation is genetically different from the previous one. And when you look at things like copy number variation and SNP's, their frequency and the effect they can have on the organism and you'll understand that we are continuously evolving. And as has been pointed out, we're a very slowly evolving species due primarily to our low reproduction rate.

The only way a population doesn't evolve is if it replicates itself without variation. I'm not aware of any populations that do that.

 

[Autodidact]

"Evolution" simply means changes in allele frequencies in populations over time. "Alleles" are types of genes (speaking basically).

Even looking at humans, we are constantly evolving. It's estimated that every human zygote has ~100 to 200 mutations. That means every single person on earth is born with a suite of mutations. That means every generation is genetically different from the previous one. And when you look at things like copy number variation and SNP's, their frequency and the effect they can have on the organism and you'll understand that we are continuously evolving. And as has been pointed out, we're a very slowly evolving species due primarily to our low reproduction rate.

The only way a population doesn't evolve is if it replicates itself without variation. I'm not aware of any populations that do that.

Well, if you consider for example each aspen tree to be a separate organism, since they're all clones, they don't really evolve, at least not the clones of the same ancestor tree. Same for King's Holly. But I guess biologists consider the entire stand of aspens (or holly) to be a single organism for that reason.

 

[logician]

Bacteria, or unicellular life, has been and will always be the most successful and mainline of evolution. Everything else that has evolved really is just a sideshow.

 

[Jose Fly]

Evolutionarily speaking, individual to individual doesn't matter as much as generation to generation.

If one generation is genetically identical to the ones preceding it, then the population hasn't evolved.

 

[Autodidact]

Evolutionarily speaking, individual to individual doesn't matter as much as generation to generation.

If one generation is genetically identical to the ones preceding it, then the population hasn't evolved.

Well the way aspen reproduce, they send up genetically identical shoots, and those trees send up shoots, and the ancestor tree dies, but its descendants are genetically identical. So even the generations don't evolve, I don't think. (*is not a botanist*) That's if you count each tree as an organism.

 

[themadhair]

but its descendants are genetically identical.

Not so. Errors still creep in just as they do for sexually reproducing organisms.

 

[Valjean]

"Evolution" simply means changes in allele frequencies in populations over time. "Alleles" are types of genes (speaking basically).

Even looking at humans, we are constantly evolving. It's estimated that every human zygote has ~100 to 200 mutations. That means every single person on earth is born with a suite of mutations. That means every generation is genetically different from the previous one. And when you look at things like copy number variation and SNP's, their frequency and the effect they can have on the organism and you'll understand that we are continuously evolving. And as has been pointed out, we're a very slowly evolving species due primarily to our low reproduction rate.

The only way a population doesn't evolve is if it replicates itself without variation. I'm not aware of any populations that do that.

Most evolution comes about from simple reproductive variation rather than mutation. That's the whole point of sex -- to create variations in offspring by mixing the genetic material.
It's in self-replicating forms like bacteria that mutation becomes the major mover and shaker (and even these little buggers will conjugate if given half a chance).

As for static forms, evolution slows to a crawl in stable, fully colonized biomes (but take one of these stable forms and stick it on an island by itself and it'll ramify into a dozen different forms before you can say "descent with modification." There are also plenty of creatures that appear no different today than their fossils from hundreds of million years ago. There are fossilized stromatolites, identical to those found today, from 2.8 billion years ago.

 

[Autodidact]

Not so. Errors still creep in just as they do for sexually reproducing organisms.

Do they? Aren't the baby trees more or less analogous to like my fingernail or something? I don't really know.

 

[Valjean]

Aspens aren't individual organisms like oak or maple trees. The organism is the grove. Remove the soil and you'll see that the whole grove is a single, genetically homogenous mesh of underground runners with shoots (aspens) sticking up every few meters.

An aspen grove is a "scab" organism, which colonizes and stabilizes a damaged landscape after fires or diseases kill off a section of forest.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, here in Colorado where we're having this pine borer beetle disaster, the empty spaces get filled in with aspen. Which does make for a pretty fall.

 

[themadhair]

Aren't the baby trees more or less analogous to like my fingernail or something?

Any cell division leads to errors. What do you think cancer is for example?

 

[Autodidact]

Any cell division leads to errors. What do you think cancer is for example?

Right, but we don't say my cells are evolving, do we? Or do we?

 

[themadhair]

Right, but we don't say my cells are evolving, do we?

Only when the new cells constitute a new generation.

 

[Jose Fly]

Most evolution comes about from simple reproductive variation rather than mutation. That's the whole point of sex -- to create variations in offspring by mixing the genetic material.
It's in self-replicating forms like bacteria that mutation becomes the major mover and shaker (and even these little buggers will conjugate if given half a chance).

As for static forms, evolution slows to a crawl in stable, fully colonized biomes (but take one of these stable forms and stick it on an island by itself and it'll ramify into a dozen different forms before you can say "descent with modification." There are also plenty of creatures that appear no different today than their fossils from hundreds of million years ago. There are fossilized stromatolites, identical to those found today, from 2.8 billion years ago.

Recombination will indeed produce variation faster, but most of the material I've read still describes mutation as the ultimate generator of variation.

As far as stromatolites, they certainly do appear to be identical to the fossil remains, but we have no idea what the genetic makeup was of those that existed 2.8 billion years ago. Just because they've superficially changed little, that doesn't preclude genetic change.

 

[Jose Fly]

From what I've been able to find, Aspens form clonal groups, but also produce seeds to colonize new areas. In the dry areas of the Rocky Mountains, Aspens are unable to produce seeds or germinate new seedlings because of the climate.

But, my educated guess is that when they can produce seeds, mutation does indeed occur as it usually does during gametogenesis.

 

[themadhair]

but most of the material I've read still describes mutation as the ultimate generator of variation.

Sure it isn't the only source? Where else would genetic differences come from if no from copying errors (i.e. mutations)??