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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
If it's quantitative you can quantify the "fitness" of any individual.

You CAN NOT. THIS IS A FACT. You are reasoning in circles. Murdering half of a cage full of rats by adding cyanide until half are dead does not show some are fitter. It shows you murdered rats in the name of Charles Darwin. Then we have despots that do the same thing; murder half a population to figure out which are the fittest.

Define fitness and then measure it. Don't tell me about murdered rats.
Evolution is not about murdering anything. Nor does. It rely on the survival of the fittest.
However any society or population clearly favours those that have superior traits. Over time they will proliferate and those that do not will be at a disadvantage. It might take many generations for a new advantageous trait to become dominant,

This slow set of changes happens in all life forms today, just as in the past.
Evolution is ongoing. At various rates.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Evolution is not about murdering anything. Nor does. It rely on the survival of the fittest.
However any society or population clearly favours those that have superior traits. Over time they will proliferate and those that do not will be at a disadvantage. It might take many generations for a new advantageous trait to become dominant,

This slow set of changes happens in all life forms today, just as in the past.
Evolution is ongoing. At various rates.

So you say.

I want to see an experiment that shows gradual change in species caused by survivalof the fittest.

Of course you have nothing so I'll settle on a scientific definition of "survival of the fittest". I want you to show me EXACTLY what makes an individual more likely to be naturally selected and then show your definition actually works.

Of course you can't do this either because the real world is too complex. You merely believe all the factors affecting fitness cancel out in a population but this is illogical and flies in the face of observation.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No. It reflects the actual theory of evolution instead of the strawman you people insist on.

Again you simply twist the definition of "theory" to fit your assumptions.

Not just humans. Fitness (in the evolutionary biology sense; not the strawman sense you guys insist on) is a quality that applies across the board to all organisms of all species.

YES. That's what I just said.

There is no such thing as "less evolved".

At the risk of confusing the issue this would literally make every individual equally fit.

Only because you insist on a strawman version of what "fit" means in evolutionary biology.

No, I don't. Biology just changed to a more PC word. It's just gussied up fitness.

"Selected" is just the past tense "fit" and sounds nicer.

Would you like some mayonnaise with that word salad?

How many times have I told you we each see what we believe?

Surely you remember homo rationatio circularis. I came, I saw, I confirmed. It's what you do just like everyone else.

Why do you never address my arguments or answer a direct question?

And I just explained why we can not.
And it's not because there is no such thing.
It's rather because there are so many things to keep into account, so many factors and selection pressures, that it is literally impossible to account for all of them.

And since you can not and since you have no experiment "Evolution" isn't a theory, it is an hypothesis. It is an hypothesis confirmed only by looking by a species that always sees what it expects.

All I'm saying is that we should look again from a different vantage point. I believe that from this vantage point more can be seen and more experiments in more areas of science are supported.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
So you say.

I want to see an experiment that shows gradual change in species caused by survivalof the fittest.

Of course you have nothing so I'll settle on a scientific definition of "survival of the fittest". I want you to show me EXACTLY what makes an individual more likely to be naturally selected and then show your definition actually works.

Of course you can't do this either because the real world is too complex. You merely believe all the factors affecting fitness cancel out in a population but this is illogical and flies in the face of observation.
Fitness covers a range of abilities and advantages.
Those that live to reproduce
Are seen as favoured mates
Either because of health, strength, skills, intelligence or leadership
And are able to pass these attributes to the following generations.

However. Evolution has no goal it proceeds by chance. It is not like dog breading where reproduction is strictly controlled to select for particular characteristics.
"Survival of the fittest" Is not science it is simply someone's past attempt to explain evolution.
It has a grain of truth. As survival is a factor in selecting those that live to reproduce...
Evolution represents those changes in our genome that can be transmitted to further generations.
These attributes can be both favourable or harmful or both.

If all women would only mate with those who were tall thin and had big noses. We would end up with a population that had a preponderance of those characteristics... However that would be selective breading.
Evolution occurs with out conscious selective breading. But may speed up following world scale catastrophies. As followed the extinction event that killed off the dinosaurs. Only those life forms that could take advantage and survive in the new conditions thrived. Those species slowly evolved to fill all the gaps in the new environment. And became the flora and fauna we see today. Very few of the original species have survived in a recognisable form to today.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Fitness covers a range of abilities and advantages.
Those that live to reproduce
Are seen as favoured mates
Either because of health, strength, skills, intelligence or leadership
And are able to pass these attributes to the following generations.

Show me why one single individual survived in any instance! You want to factor individuals and life out of species. "Species" even has no meaning without individuals and only individuals live. "Rabbits" aren't alive, this is a damn word. "Fluffy", "Hoppy, "Bugs", and Long Ears" are alive. They are or were real and they all had equal fitness. You can't show before, during, or after their lives that any were more or less fit than the others. If you count their off spring you can not suddenly announce that "Fluffy" was most naturally selected because it had the most. All you've done is count rabbits which... ...drum roll please... ...I already showed don't even exist.

How do you know Hoppy didn't carry some trait that limited his family size but assured that his great great grand family was enormous. How do you know that "Bugs" wasn't some Super Bunny that could bend steel shotgun barrels in his bare hands but died in bunnyhood because he stumbled over a piece of kryptonite.

Your definitions have no meaning and will forever be unquantifiable. Any "science" derived from these definitions is of necessity inapplicable to the nature of change in the collections of individuals that we call "species".

You have ringed a cart in horses and it can't move. If it does move it will be in a random walk and end up in the ditch where the "theory" of Evolution belongs.

It makes a fine hypothesis and is far better than spontaneous generation but it has no experimental backing. It flies in the face of observation.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Show me why one single individual survived in any instance! You want to factor individuals and life out of species. "Species" even has no meaning without individuals and only individuals live. "Rabbits" aren't alive, this is a damn word. "Fluffy", "Hoppy, "Bugs", and Long Ears" are alive. They are or were real and they all had equal fitness. You can't show before, during, or after their lives that any were more or less fit than the others. If you count their off spring you can not suddenly announce that "Fluffy" was most naturally selected because it had the most. All you've done is count rabbits which... ...drum roll please... ...I already showed don't even exist.

How do you know Hoppy didn't carry some trait that limited his family size but assured that his great great grand family was enormous. How do you know that "Bugs" wasn't some Super Bunny that could bend steel shotgun barrels in his bare hands but died in bunnyhood because he stumbled over a piece of kryptonite.

Your definitions have no meaning and will forever be unquantifiable. Any "science" derived from these definitions is of necessity inapplicable to the nature of change in the collections of individuals that we call "species".

You have ringed a cart in horses and it can't move. If it does move it will be in a random walk and end up in the ditch where the "theory" of Evolution belongs.

It makes a fine hypothesis and is far better than spontaneous generation but it has no experimental backing. It flies in the face of observation.
With your attitude and lack of wish to understand, you will never comprehend
evolution. Nor do I think you even wish to.
This is of course not a problem.
As evolution will continue, what ever you, or anyone else, happens to believe or might wish for.

Evolution never has been observable in any individual. Though genetic variables have. Individuals are born every day with genetically significant differences, but which never become established in a way that is both obvious or is. Necessarily transmitted to the next generation. The process is too gradual for the changes to be obvious, or necessarily continued through generations.

It only becomes obvious when comparing individuals from widely separate generations.
Stone age people looked very different to us. Cro-magnon were different to Neanderthals. Yet they could interbreed, and both sets of genes are represented in modern mans genome.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
These previous two posts simply show what everyone does; assume the conclusion and then fail to understand why everyone doesn't see the light. The issue simply is never addressed because everyone knows there is Evolution and fitness is the engine.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Show me why one single individual survived in any instance! You want to factor individuals and life out of species. "Species" even has no meaning without individuals and only individuals live. "Rabbits" aren't alive, this is a damn word. "Fluffy", "Hoppy, "Bugs", and Long Ears" are alive. They are or were real and they all had equal fitness. You can't show before, during, or after their lives that any were more or less fit than the others. If you count their off spring you can not suddenly announce that "Fluffy" was most naturally selected because it had the most. All you've done is count rabbits which... ...drum roll please... ...I already showed don't even exist.

How do you know Hoppy didn't carry some trait that limited his family size but assured that his great great grand family was enormous. How do you know that "Bugs" wasn't some Super Bunny that could bend steel shotgun barrels in his bare hands but died in bunnyhood because he stumbled over a piece of kryptonite.

Your definitions have no meaning and will forever be unquantifiable. Any "science" derived from these definitions is of necessity inapplicable to the nature of change in the collections of individuals that we call "species".

You have ringed a cart in horses and it can't move. If it does move it will be in a random walk and end up in the ditch where the "theory" of Evolution belongs.

It makes a fine hypothesis and is far better than spontaneous generation but it has no experimental backing. It flies in the face of observation.
With your attitude and lack of wish to understand, you will never comprehend
evolution. Nor do I think you even wish to.
This is of course not a problem.
As evolution will continue, what ever you, or anyone else, happens to believe or might wish for.

Evolution never has been observable in any individual. Though genetic variables have. Individuals are born every day with genetically significant differences, but which never become established in a way that is both obvious or is. Necessarily transmitted to the next generation. The process is too gradual for the changes to be obvious, or necessarily continued through generations.

It only becomes obvious when comparing individuals from widely separate generations.
Stone age people looked very different to us. Cro-magnon were different to Neanderthals. Yet they could interbreed, and both sets of genes are represented in modern mans genome.
These previous two posts simply show what everyone does; assume the conclusion and then fail to understand why everyone doesn't see the light. The issue simply is never addressed because everyone knows there is Evolution and fitness is the engine.
The issue has been addressed by thousands of scientists. Who have carried out countless investigations and experiments and expressed their evidence in countless papers and lectures.

That you have Not done any of these things does not make you wiser or more knowledgeable than them. Nor do your inane questions, add to anyone's knowledge on the matter. Or ask anything that has not been asked and answered by them countless times before.

Evolution is established science, you may not choose to learn about it or understand it. It adds nothing to speak from ignorance of the science, to persist simply makes you appear dumb.

As for seeing the Light... That belongs in the field of religion,, not science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
As for seeing the Light... That belongs in the field of religion,, not science.

Remarkable!

No scientist has ever defined consciousness or fitness in scientific or quantifiable terms. No scientist has ever considered consciousness in devising an experiment to support Evolution. No scientist has ever performed an experiment that shows gradual change in a significant species caused by fitness. No scientist has ever performed an experiment that takes individual differences into account in natural selection.

Scientists skipped to the chase. They assumed the fit survive and then proceeded on that definition in order to invent a mechanism for a gradual change that may or may not exist.

Is it your opinion then that those scientists who believe in punctuated equilibrium aren't even scientists?

Now ignore it all again and don't address the questions.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That you have Not done any of these things does not make you wiser or more knowledgeable than them.

I have enough people on ignore that it might be hurting these discussions.

I am going to remove every single individual from the list but any one of those individuals who refuse to accept any of my word as I define it will immediately return to it.

I have answered every question and provided support for everything that was challenged. Very few of my challenges have been addressed at all. Very few of my questions are ever answered. Rather than arguing believers are instead lecturing about what they can find on google. Everything written in books is not true and science is rewritten every few decades like clockwork.

I can assure you the 2095 edition of a biology text will be very different than any current text. The last word will NEVER be written.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I am going to remove every single individual from the list but any one of those individuals who refuse to accept any of my word as I define it will immediately return to it.

Demanding everyone accepts your definitions while you reject the standard definition is childish nonsense so whack me straight back on.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It's important to go beyond fossils to substantiate your case of evolution by natural selection and/or mutations that formed species that lasted or may not have lasted. (Gorillas are still gorillas and finches are still finches and Nepalese humans are still humans...) In the meantime, if someone were to see a fossil of a fish type with 4 appendages, he might say, hey look! that's proof that fish evolved to land animals. But is it? Not necessarily. Because there's nothing beyond that showing "the next step" or mutation. And nothing before that to show how and where the Tiktaalik came from (evolved from). Deny or argue away, please...As a form of recognizing what you might say, I can say that it's "logical" for some to put in the missing data, such as pretending to know the exact way it happened. Internally and externally. Life goes on...
I realize that's what you believe.

Well now let's see -- what exactly do they predict that specimen evolved from? And what did it supposedly (specifically) evolve to? Any information from SCIENTISTS you know of as to what it evolved FROM (specifically which fish) and what it evolved TO (again -- what organism exactly).
That's all for now.

I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am, that you keep repeating the same errors over and over again, without learning anything new. So yes, WOW, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have fully indoctrinated you to being stubbornly ignorant to learning & understanding from from one’s errors and remedial the mistakes with correct information…in this case the correct scientific & biological sources, not the fallacious and false propaganda (JW or creationist) sources that you have been using.

Where do you think tetrapod land animals inherited bones, jaws, vertebrae, brains, and so many other physical traits from?

Fishes, in times of - as in tens of millions of years - times prior to the earliest but extinct tetrapod amphibians.

But none of that occurred overnight, and not every fishes were “tetrapod-like”, which biological term is Tetrapodomorpha.

The following clades of Sacropterygii - Tiktaalik, Acanthostega, Ichthyostega, and others, are extinct tetrapod-like (Tetrapodomorpha) sacropterygians. Yes they (eg Tiktaalik, Acanthostega, Ichthyostega) were still fishes, the lobe-fins develop bones that increasingly arms, wrists and digits like those of true tetrapods, eg the earliest but extinct species of amphibians.

Note that, not all sacropterygians were Tetrapodomorpha. Other non-tetrapod sacropterygians continue to thrive, especially the ancestors to the living species of lungfishes and coelacanths. The Tiktaalik, Acanthostega & Ichthyostega are groups of the Sacropterygii that evolved from the Stegocephali. The tetrapod-like sacropterygians and non-tetrapod sacropterygians have diverge at some points in time, and they continue to go their separate branches.

The Ichthyostega have evolved from the earlier Tiktaalik & Acanthostega, developed limbs and lungs that were more adapted for terrestrial life than the earlier Tiktaalik & Acanthostega. The Ichthyostega were closer to the amphibians than the Tiktaalik & Acanthostega, that biologists referred to the Ichthyostega being “stem-tetrapod”.

There were many groups of amphibians that flourished during the early Carboniferous period, branching out in different directions. All amphibians, extant and extinct, still shared to at least 2 things in common with fishes, they are cold-blooded (ectothermic) and still lay their eggs in watery environments (anamniotes). How they differed from fishes, they can move about more in terrestrial environments because they have four limbs (hence tetrapod) and have lungs that sufficiently allow them to stay on dry lands.

How they differed from other tetrapods, like the reptiles and mammals, is as I have above, amphibians were still anamniotes, like their fis ancestors, they laying their eggs in aquatic environments.

Reptiles and mammals including their extinct ancestors were and are amniotes (Amniota is the clade of superclass Tetrapoda),
(A) animals that can either lay their eggs on dry lands,​
(B) or animals that can retain the growing embryos in female wombs for some periods, prior to giving life through live birth.​

The amniotes evolved from the earlier but extinct amphibian group, most likely from the group known as the Lepospondyli.

The lineage from fishes to tetrapods - such as amphibians, and the lineage from amphibians to amniotes, are quite complex, that I am yet to fully understand, but at least I am open to learning & exploring more…unlike you.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I have enough people on ignore that it might be hurting these discussions.

I am going to remove every single individual from the list but any one of those individuals who refuse to accept any of my word as I define it will immediately return to it.

I have answered every question and provided support for everything that was challenged. Very few of my challenges have been addressed at all. Very few of my questions are ever answered. Rather than arguing believers are instead lecturing about what they can find on google. Everything written in books is not true and science is rewritten every few decades like clockwork.

I can assure you the 2095 edition of a biology text will be very different than any current text. The last word will NEVER be written.

I have never had anyone on ignore.
That is like putting ones head in thee sand.
However I will only answer stupid questions for so long

The Bible contains explanations of phenomena as understood and handed down from the stone age to the late iron age. It covers everything from primitive fables to sophisticated religious belief.
What it does not cover is science in any recognisable form.
To base any of ones scientific opinions on biblical sources, is totally undefendable at best, and more likely wilfully ignorant.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Remarkable!

No scientist has ever defined consciousness or fitness in scientific or quantifiable terms. No scientist has ever considered consciousness in devising an experiment to support Evolution. No scientist has ever performed an experiment that shows gradual change in a significant species caused by fitness. No scientist has ever performed an experiment that takes individual differences into account in natural selection.

Scientists skipped to the chase. They assumed the fit survive and then proceeded on that definition in order to invent a mechanism for a gradual change that may or may not exist.

Is it your opinion then that those scientists who believe in punctuated equilibrium aren't even scientists?

Now ignore it all again and don't address the questions.
Scientists are not subject to "beliefs"
However punctuated equilibrium like quantum evolution, is more concerned with the rate of evolution than evolution itself. Which it does not contest.
Evolution is unlikely to be entirely uniform, but respond to stimulation like all other change.
Quantum evolution suggest the particulate or stepped changes as the norm, however there is little evidence that this occurs as macro events,

If you consider the fossil record as points on a graph. It matters little if they represent jumps or chance findings from a smooth transition. Both represent progressive evolution.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member

The Bible contains explanations of phenomena as understood and handed down from the stone age to the late iron age. It covers everything from primitive fables to sophisticated religious belief.
What it does not cover is science in any recognisable form.
To base any of ones scientific opinions on biblical sources, is totally undefendable at best, and more likely wilfully ignorant.

I get none of my scientific understanding/ models/ beliefs from the Bible or from religion.

But I do believe that that the Bible is a confused rendition of ancient science. While it is not recognizable in whole it is in part.

Scientists are not subject to "beliefs"

Really!!!? How did surgeons in the 1860's know washing their hands before an operation was a waste of time? What experiment proved it?

However punctuated equilibrium like quantum evolution, is more concerned with the rate of evolution than evolution itself.

OK. As long as anyone doesn't think change is species is gradual they might be right. At least righter than Darwin and most biologists.

Evolution is unlikely to be entirely uniform, but respond to stimulation like all other change.

Yes!

If you consider the fossil record as points on a graph. It matters little if they represent jumps or chance findings from a smooth transition. Both represent progressive evolution.

Interpretation of the fossil record is neither experiment nor justification for using words like "theory" to describe our belief in "Evolution". All it does is show species change but it does not show how the rate of change AND there are not even in clues to show what drives that change. Assuming the driver is fitness is illogical and places the cart squarely before the horse.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I have never had anyone on ignore.
That is like putting ones head in thee sand.
However I will only answer stupid questions for so long

The Bible contains explanations of phenomena as understood and handed down from the stone age to the late iron age. It covers everything from primitive fables to sophisticated religious belief.
What it does not cover is science in any recognisable form.
To base any of ones scientific opinions on biblical sources, is totally undefendable at best, and more likely wilfully ignorant.

You've ignored every point and question again.

How can there be a discussion or debate when believers in science ignore virtually every single point and dodge the questions? When their arms are twisted long enough to try to get them to address a point they twist the definitions of the words you use. You may not be able to prove there is no God or that there are no alternative explanation for experiment but you can still address every argument. Instead we get lectures about what is according to Peers.

There are a lot of things I don't believe in and frankly opinion leads that list and this even applies to expert opinion. If I get sand kicked in my face while I have no means to defend against it I'll get out my umbrella.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You've ignored every point and question again.

How can there be a discussion or debate when believers in science ignore virtually every single point and dodge the questions? When their arms are twisted long enough to try to get them to address a point they twist the definitions of the words you use. You may not be able to prove there is no God or that there are no alternative explanation for experiment but you can still address every argument. Instead we get lectures about what is according to Peers.

There are a lot of things I don't believe in and frankly opinion leads that list and this even applies to expert opinion. If I get sand kicked in my face while I have no means to defend against it I'll get out my umbrella.

Every scientist understands that their interpretations of thier experiments and findings are unlikely to be the whole truth or even wrong. New findings from new experiments are published every day. Some lead nowhere and other become mainstream for at Least a while.

However over time and a great deal of effort progress is made.
In some fields like particle physics remarkably little progress has been made in my life time (born 1935) however it is a major and very costly field of study. Quantum physics is another related science that has been stuck in a rut for a similar time.
However this has not stopped useful and practical applications emerging from these studies.
The whole area surrounding Field theory seems to lacking a fundamental thought that will bring it all together.
Unfortunately this is how science works, it always appears simple looking back at it. Breakthroughs are usually led by revolutionary thought. Not from following accepted or traditional views.

The various theories around evolution are clearly not yet complete.
However, the genetic record establishes clear links between species and their evolution.
What must be less clear is the why and the processes involved.

Your question about the role of "FITNESS" leads one to suspect it plays a part, but the actual chemical, biological process, if there is one? is far from clear, with out adding survival to the equation.
Only those that survive to reproduce, pass on their genes.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I want to see an experiment that shows gradual change in species caused by survivalof the fittest.

Of course you have nothing so I'll settle on a scientific definition of "survival of the fittest". I want you to show me EXACTLY what makes an individual more likely to be naturally selected and then show your definition actually works.

Of course you can't do this either because the real world is too complex. You merely believe all the factors affecting fitness cancel out in a population but this is illogical and flies in the face of observation.

As I have told you repeatedly in past threads, “survival of the fittest” isnt evolutionary mechanism, Natural Selection (NS) is, and it have gone beyond Darwin’s original framework to NS, by incorporating knowledge and techniques from modern genetics, biological classification (eg clade taxonomy), cell biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, zoology, botany, microbiology, plus applied science like medicine, palaeontology (which includes geology, stratigraphy), etc.

Natural Selection is stronger & complete evolutionary model than it was in the 19th century.

Second, all mechanisms, including Natural Selection, are about the ability to pass the traits to succeeding generations, hence it is all about the ability TO REPRODUCE.

Survival of the fittest was invented or coined by political sociologist, Herbert Spencer, originally used for sociology theory. As an amateur biologist, Spencer applied this often misused & misunderstood idiom & ideology on Darwin’s works.

Natural Selection has nothing to do with human politics or ideology; Natural Selection is just pure biology, and the survival of the fittest in sociology & politics, have no place non-human animals, plants, fungi, protists, bacteria & archaea.

That you don’t understand these two main points, and your unwillingness to learn from your mistakes, doesn’t surprise anyone who has known you and your personal beliefs.

And btw, keep me in the ignore list. I still disagree & reject your Metaphysics is the “basis of science”…this is neither a definition, nor explanation as to what Metaphysics is. That you believe that it is a definition, just show me how utterly absurd your reasoning is.

I have every rights to disagree with your puny logic/definition about Metaphysics. So, please, keep me in your ignore list.
 
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