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Evolution My ToE

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So you don't believe in the flood or creation week or that scripture is inspired and kept and given by God. Alrighty then.
You got most right but not the latter point. People wrote the Bible and selected the books to form the canon, and the question of "Divine inspiration" is just that-- a question.

IOW, in which way is the Bible "Divinely inspired", and the simple answer to that is that there's literally no way of knowing. It certainly isn't inerrant as many of the narratives simply don't match each other.

For example, how many angels were located at Jesus' tomb, where were he/they located, and what did he/they say? No two gospel accounts match each other if you check them out on this.

But this doesn't mean that they weren't Divinely inspired in some way, so it's important not to go to the opposite extreme either.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The world tells us no such vile and foolish thing. Your religion tells you.
dad, you are breaking the Ninth Commandment again. You have to keep yourself ignorant of all of the sciences out of fear. If you can get over your fear I and others here can help you to learn.

My prediction?

1p707j.gif
 

dad

Undefeated
You got most right but not the latter point. People wrote the Bible and selected the books to form the canon, and the question of "Divine inspiration" is just that-- a question.

IOW, in which way is the Bible "Divinely inspired", and the simple answer to that is that there's literally no way of knowing. It certainly isn't inerrant as many of the narratives simply don't match each other.

For example, how many angels were located at Jesus' tomb, where were he/they located, and what did he/they say? No two gospel accounts match each other if you check them out on this.

But this doesn't mean that they weren't Divinely inspired in some way, so it's important not to go to the opposite extreme either.
Since Jesus verified Scripture was from God including His words that is not an issue.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Let's take a step back here. What is your definition of "complex", specifically in terms of how we can tell which of two organisms is more complex than the other?
A step back?

You brought in this experiment to challenge the statement... There is no evidence of simple organism to complex.
Experimental evolution of multicellularity

However, multicellular organisms are organisms that consist of more than one cell, in contrast to unicellular organisms.
Does multicellularity mean complexity?
Why else would you be asking me about complexity?

What if I described complexity that is outside your expectations?
According to science papers, the actual level of complexity is very hard to define or measure accurately in biology, with properties such as gene content, the number of cell types or morphology all proposed as possible metrics.

What is complexity?
Abstract
Arguments for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity are weakened by the lack of an unambiguous definition of complexity. Such definitions abound for both dynamical systems and biological organisms, but have drawbacks of either a conceptual or a practical nature.

I actually like this one.
Language: Disputed definitions
Something I have been saying all along.

How important would your question be, or the statement you seem so determined to challenge be, if this statement is true?
There's No Such Thing as a 'Simple' Organism
Would you disagree? Then you would now have to explain what simple is.
Is it the case, you are of the view that simple means unicellular, and complex means multicellular?

One thing I can say about you though. You are quite a determined fellow.
That can be good, and it can be bad. For a scientist, it can be advantageous for your work, because it means you won't give up easily, and your determination might well pay off.
The down side of determination, is that, you may not know when enough is enough, and it can drive a person up a wall.

In order for you to say, this is evidence of how that occurred, you must replicate the complete process, not speculate on how it might have happened, by creating an experiment based on how you assumed it happened.

If there is anything you would like to say, on the above, besides repeating your question, as you so famously do - I just keep remembering you on the Watchmaker thread - then I say, enough is enough. Let's move on to something else.

We can always agree that 'There's No Such Thing as a 'Simple' Organism' and go our merry way. That way, neither of us has to make a point about simple to complex. Instead there are merely different levels of complexity.

Can we move on now?
I was going to return to the questions you posed earlier, but I decided on something else.
Your determination has actually taught me something, which I think I will put into practice at this time.
I keep asking a question, actually a number of them, which no one seems eager or willing to address, including you. Everyone seem s to be avoiding it, and playing ignorance to the point I am making.
So here is what I'll do, taking a page from your book...
I'll ask again.

Let me put it this way...
A stick insect fossil in a layer with dinosaur fossils dating before 66 million years will automatically indicate the fossil must be older than 66 million years - which was done.
If other studies say that is wrong, and the stick insect fossil is younger - many millions of years after 66 million years ago, then how did it get buried in a layer with dinosaur fossils?
If the insect fossil is much younger, then why are the other fossils in that strata older, and not considered younger?
Does it have anything to do with the phylogenetic tree?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You..or the bible.. who should we believe...hmmm
You mean whom should we believe? Someone that can support what they say or the writings of a bunch of ignorant goat herders claiming that the got their message from God but when checked their claims tend to fail. You even have to ask?

Seriously dad, you might want to go to a mental health expert. You might have some deeper issues.
 

dad

Undefeated
You mean whom should we believe? Someone that can support what they say or the writings of a bunch of ignorant goat herders claiming that the got their message from God but when checked their claims tend to fail. You even have to ask?

Seriously dad, you might want to go to a mental health expert. You might have some deeper issues.
Don't be like crazy Nancy.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But that's not what they said. They said that you don't understand it because they believe you have said things that indicate that you don't understand it.

An ad hominem is only when an individual uses personal remarks instead of responding to the argument. So saying "You don't understand this subject" is not an ad hominem, provided they provide sufficient reason to believe this is so, and if they have actually responded to your arguments. Those paragraph you quoted did respond to your arguments, and contained no ad hominems.


That's okay. I think we should all benefit from trying to keep this civil.
I'm not going to argue with you on this.
A person may be unable to see that they simply believe something to be true, and think that anyone who does not believe as they do, does not understand.
It's not that the person does not understand. It's just that both persons are looking through two different lens, but one thinks his lens is clear, so the other guy must be ignorant.

There is no need to keep repeating that someone does not understand. If one thinks the person does not understand, simply demonstrate it. If one can't, then try cleaning the lens. It may just be a matter of thinking that one is right - which may not be the case.

However, repeating to everyone who does not agree with one's belief, and doing so in almost every post, is ad hominem - an intent to belittle. I say address the post and stop whining.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let me put it this way...
A stick insect fossil in a layer with dinosaur fossils dating before 66 million years will automatically indicate the fossil must be older than 66 million years - which was done.
If other studies say that is wrong, and the stick insect fossil is younger - many millions of years after 66 million years ago, then how did it get buried in a layer with dinosaur fossils?
If the insect fossil is much younger, then why are the other fossils in that strata older, and not considered younger?
Does it have anything to do with the phylogenetic tree?


This is oversimplified and wrong as a result. There are different stick insects. It is not as if you find one you have found them all. Also birds are older than 66 million years. You should know this by now. Birds are the only dinosaurs the survived the K/Pg extinction. One family may have evolved as a reaction to predation by birds. That does not mean that another group could not evolve to a similar morphology due to similar predation. Environment can affect morphology. Look at sharks, dolphins and ichthyosaurs. All have the same general body shape but quite different evolutionary paths.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Ok, how many kinds then? Lets call K this number. Must be K > 1. Actually, if we include fungi, plants, etc. K must be much bigger than 1.

And you aware of any scientific theory that postulates that life started independently K times on earth, and has been peer reviewed?

If yes, source please.

Ciao

- vioe
o_O Que? Seriously?
I don't know.

How many times did evolution occur, and how many species, and when exactly in history?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm not going to argue with you on this.
A person may be unable to see that they simply believe something to be true, and think that anyone who does not believe as they do, does not understand.
It's not that the person does not understand. It's just that both persons are looking through two different lens, but one thinks his lens is clear, so the other guy must be ignorant.

There is no need to keep repeating that someone does not understand. If one thinks the person does not understand, simply demonstrate it. If one can't, then try cleaning the lens. It may just be a matter of thinking that one is right - which may not be the case.

However, repeating to everyone who does not agree with one's belief, and doing so in almost every post, is ad hominem - an intent to belittle. I say address the post and stop whining.
I am sorry, but he was right. You refuse to learn. You refuse to even learn what evidence is. We can all see that you have to keep yourself ignorant to keep from lying. For example it is demonstrable that there is endless evidence for evolution. Yet you keep claiming that there is not any. There are only two possibilities, you either have kept yourself from understanding what is and what is not evidence, or you are lying. Now I can see that you try to be honest so the only conclusion is that you have to keep yourself ignorant.

And no, there were no ad hominems in that post. You, like most creationists, do not seem to understand that concept either.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Perhaps you should stop projecting your beliefs on the poor flatworms making them your kin?

Again, dad, why are you so afraid of reality? Yes, you are related to flat worms. You could even say that one was your umpteenth great grandmother.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
o_O Que? Seriously?
I don't know.

How many times did evolution occur, and how many species, and when exactly in history?
This is a poorly formed question. Evolution is a process that is constantly going on. So we could say that evolution only "happened" once. It is still happening. Life does not stop evolving. There have been many millions if not billions of species over the history of the Earth. There is no way to catalog where and when the all arose.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
A step back?

You brought in this experiment to challenge the statement... There is no evidence of simple organism to complex.
Yep, and to me, a population evolving multiple new life history behaviors and traits would negate that claim. You seem to disagree, which led me to wonder what you meant by the term "complex".

However, multicellular organisms are organisms that consist of more than one cell, in contrast to unicellular organisms.
Does multicellularity mean complexity?
Why else would you be asking me about complexity?
See above.

What if I described complexity that is outside your expectations?
According to science papers, the actual level of complexity is very hard to define or measure accurately in biology, with properties such as gene content, the number of cell types or morphology all proposed as possible metrics.

What is complexity?
Abstract
Arguments for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity are weakened by the lack of an unambiguous definition of complexity. Such definitions abound for both dynamical systems and biological organisms, but have drawbacks of either a conceptual or a practical nature.
I agree. Do you?

How important would your question be, or the statement you seem so determined to challenge be, if this statement is true?
There's No Such Thing as a 'Simple' Organism
Would you disagree? Then you would now have to explain what simple is.
I would agree, and note that it renders your claim irrelevant. If there's no way to objectively determine whether one organism is more or less "complex" than another, then the claim "there is no evidence of simple organism to complex" is meaningless.

Is it the case, you are of the view that simple means unicellular, and complex means multicellular?
No.

In order for you to say, this is evidence of how that occurred, you must replicate the complete process, not speculate on how it might have happened, by creating an experiment based on how you assumed it happened.
That is incorrect. If "replication of the entire process" is required before we can reach conclusions about how things happened, we would rarely, if ever, be able to say much of anything about past events. Do we need to recreate the entire Civil War before we can say anything about what happened? Do we need to recreate a murder before we can convict a person for committing it? Do we need to recreate all my German ancestors having sex and giving birth before we can conclude that I am of German ancestry?

Of course not.

If there is anything you would like to say, on the above, besides repeating your question, as you so famously do - I just keep remembering you on the Watchmaker thread - then I say, enough is enough. Let's move on to something else.

We can always agree that 'There's No Such Thing as a 'Simple' Organism' and go our merry way. That way, neither of us has to make a point about simple to complex. Instead there are merely different levels of complexity.
I'm fine with that.

Let me put it this way...
A stick insect fossil in a layer with dinosaur fossils dating before 66 million years will automatically indicate the fossil must be older than 66 million years - which was done.
If other studies say that is wrong, and the stick insect fossil is younger - many millions of years after 66 million years ago, then how did it get buried in a layer with dinosaur fossils?

If the insect fossil is much younger, then why are the other fossils in that strata older, and not considered younger?
Does it have anything to do with the phylogenetic tree?
Before I comment further, are you referring to the work you cited in THIS POST? If so, I think you've greatly misunderstood the material. Perhaps the first thing to focus on would be to understand that the terms "New World" and "Old World" refer to the Western Hemisphere (N. and S. America) and the collective of Africa, Asia, and Europe, respectively. IOW, the terms are not describing ages, but are describing locations.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since Jesus verified Scripture was from God including His words that is not an issue.
So, there no human element in it whatsoever, iyo?

What you are conflating is "Divine inspiration" and "inerrancy", and we know (or one should know by now) that what we have with the scriptures simply is not inerrancy for reasons and an example I already provided, plus more.

There clearly is very much a human element involved as the Bible was not meant to be objective, and clearly it isn't. It's subjective, and the art of storytelling ("myth", which doesn't mean nor imply falsehood) was and still is used as a very useful teaching device. This is how most people learned 2000 years ago since the vast majority of people in that region were illiterate.

To deny the basic ToE, as long as it is believed to have been caused by God, is to ignore the Truth, and the Truth cannot be relative since this is also what we believe Jesus and the Church tries to teach. If your denomination is not teaching the Truth, which is what my old church was doing and why I left it, then let me recommend that you find a denomination that doesn't pit the Truth that we now know from objective study, which is what science is all about, against what that church itself teaches.

The vast majority if Christian theologians do believe that the ToE is acceptable with the understanding that God was behind it all. The evidence of the ToE is so literally overwhelming and is even the basis today for flu shots, for just one example [consider looking up "speciation"].

Anyhow, have a most Blessed Lord's Day and weekend.
 
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