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Evolution Observed

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
This is all just old stuff akin to the peppered moth days, remember that? When the lighter colored moths were being eaten because they showed in stark relief against the darkened birch bark and so only the lighter ones came forth? Then all the atheists attempted to credit "evolution" in their excitement over common environmental adaptations... yet it is still the same specie of moth... The point is, the responsibility for sound science claims does not require me to claim that micro cellular adaptation is "evolution". It won't become a different creature, it will always be a speckled moth. Look at the volumes of thought expended over that topic. It is no different now with this bird. And the whole thing comes back to ignoring the fossil evidence against evolution, having never found a missing link or transition... not to mention ignoring God speaking specifically of His creating each specific species after it's kind... Evolution is the true scientist's dunce in the corner. I am a scientist. It is embarrassing that the branch of "theory" that exists called "evolution/darwinism" is even called science, possessing no empirical evidence to earn that title. The only thing I've observed of it so far, in my professional opinion, is that it is a religious form of Atheist's Theology. So the proof is on an "evolutionist"... and you will have to do much better
Ok. I see. No need to address my previous post. Your elaboration here is what I was looking for.

You are just moving the goal posts now that examples of evolution have been provided. There is nothing in the ToE that demands that the only acceptable evolution is change in taxa. Why people keep claiming it does, even round about like you, is astounding.

The theory of evolution is replete with evidence. I don't understand how you can claim to be a scientist and deny the evidence of evolution exists. There is no professional opinion that parts of science are atheist theology. There are certain sects of theism that make that claim, but not in science.

Evolutionary biologists keep coming up with more and more evidence and it never seems to be enough. As soon as new evidence is supported the goal post is moved and demands are made for some other evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
If I were wrong because you say so sir, I am ok with that. Thank you for your opinion. You evolutionists push your unfounded claims exactly like religious fanatics push theirs, no difference. Both of the same mold, of which I am neither. Both are intellectually and spiritually offensive. If you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God then what have I to do with you? Do you even believe in God? If not, please don't even respond.

Psalm_14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
This is all simply untrue. What branch of science do you work in?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Such common 'Horizontal adaptations' as well as hybrids and mutations are only recently given the term "evolution", and it is inappropriate. A disciplined scientist wouldn't get too excited about such claims.
I guess I still need some elaboration. What is "horizontal adaptation"? Do you mean horizontal gene flow? Because that is not what the evidence of the finches is discussing. Mutations have been known for some time and they are one of the sources of variation on which natural selection is acting. Gene flow, whether horizontal or vertical, supplies variation that natural selection can act on to drive changes in populations. In the case of the finches, vertical gene flow is driving speciation.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
On the contrary, the more the fossil record reveals and clarifies the distinct separations, jumps, gaps, stasis in natural history -rather than the smooth transitions Darwinism predicted- the more the goalposts of what constitutes 'evolution' are moved to smaller and smaller examples of adaptation- or merely 'change over time' by any means as some define it

we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we had in Darwin's time, as Raup said- many previous examples based on superficial physical similarities have been debunked
You lost me. Are you saying the fossil record is against evolution?

A crocoduck or a flying turtle would falsify the current theory of evolution. I don't see what you're getting at. So far, nothing has been found that has falsified it. There are no moving goal posts here. There are more transitions known today than ever before. There weren't any or many during Darwin's life. Archaeopteryx wasn't discovered until 1861, but there have been many examples for many different phylogenetic lines discovered since. Your claims are at odds with all the evidence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You lost me. Are you saying the fossil record is against evolution?

A crocoduck or a flying turtle would falsify the current theory of evolution. I don't see what you're getting at. So far, nothing has been found that has falsified it. There are no moving goal posts here. There are more transitions known today than ever before. There weren't any or many during Darwin's life. Archaeopteryx wasn't discovered until 1861, but there have been many examples for many different phylogenetic lines discovered since. Your claims are at odds with all the evidence.

One of his favorite techniques is to use a specific quote mine where it speaks of "lost" transitional fossils. They are of course still transitional, they are merely not transitional to a specific species. For example horse evolution has gone through some corrections and one of two of the species that are thought to be transitional are now known to be offshoots. Bachelor uncles so to speak.

Conflating transitional and ancestral is a common creationist strategy. Why? I don't know. The "logic" of those that deny science is hard to follow.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
You lost me. Are you saying the fossil record is against evolution?

Well it was David Raup, the world renowned paleontologist and Curator of the Chicago field Museum who said it..

But yes, there are conflicts between paleontology and Darwinism certainly.

A crocoduck or a flying turtle would falsify the current theory of evolution. I don't see what you're getting at. So far, nothing has been found that has falsified it. There are no moving goal posts here. There are more transitions known today than ever before. There weren't any or many during Darwin's life. Archaeopteryx wasn't discovered until 1861, but there have been many examples for many different phylogenetic lines discovered since. Your claims are at odds with all the evidence.

again we run afoul of post moving semantics though, I've heard countless Darwinists here declare themselves as 'transitionals' proving evolution. But if you think the fossil record validated anything like the smooth incremental transitions from single cell to man, predicted and considered crucial to the theory by Darwin, you'd have to argue that with most evolutionary biologists today.

Back then the Cambrian explosion was considered a label for an artifact of an incomplete record, to be filled in as fossils were discovered. In stark contrast it has become ever more well defined, explosive, along with many other events, the more fossils are discovered

We find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Well it was David Raup, the world renowned paleontologist and Curator of the Chicago field Museum who said it..

But yes, there are conflicts between paleontology and Darwinism certainly.
I looked this up. You could have too. Your claim apparently stems from a common quote mine by creationists. Here is the oft used quote mine and the immediate context in which it actually appears.

Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information -- what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appear to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated in the last 120 years and we still have a record which does show change but one that can hardly be looked upon as the most reasonable consequence of natural selection. David Raup, "Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin Jan. 1979, Vol. 50 No. 1 p. 22-29. Follow this link to for a further explanation. On a Common Creationist Quotation of Dr. David M. Raup

Paleontology supports the ToE. What Raup is representing here is a discussion of the details and more to the point, a discussion of what the fossil record shows in regards to natural selection and not as evidence that paleontology is at odds with the ToE.

[QUOTE="Guy Threepwood, post: 5434187, member: 55684"again we run afoul of post moving semantics though, I've heard countless Darwinists here declare themselves as 'transitionals' proving evolution. But if you think the fossil record validated anything like the smooth incremental transitions from single cell to man, predicted and considered crucial to the theory by Darwin, you'd have to argue that with most evolutionary biologists today.[/QUOTE]What is your point here. You aren't refuting evolution with these claims. There has never been fluid evidence of the kind that creationists dishonestly demand and move goal posts when some of it comes in.

[QUOTE="Guy Threepwood, post: 5434187, member: 55684"Back then the Cambrian explosion was considered a label for an artifact of an incomplete record, to be filled in as fossils were discovered. In stark contrast it has become ever more well defined, explosive, along with many other events, the more fossils are discovered

We find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.[/QUOTE]A lot of it is an artifact of the nature of fossilization. The Cambrian explosion demonstrates massive adaptive radiation of living things over a short, by geological terms, period of time. There exists, fossils that are older than the Cambrian and creationist claims fall apart even further in light of that evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
One of his favorite techniques is to use a specific quote mine where it speaks of "lost" transitional fossils. They are of course still transitional, they are merely not transitional to a specific species. For example horse evolution has gone through some corrections and one of two of the species that are thought to be transitional are now known to be offshoots. Bachelor uncles so to speak.

Conflating transitional and ancestral is a common creationist strategy. Why? I don't know. The "logic" of those that deny science is hard to follow.
I'm surprised at how the creationist arguments here are no different than they are anywhere you go. The same tactics of quote mining, reviving out of date material at the exclusion of more recent material, logical fallacies (the same old), pretending that scientists never considered the "gems" that creationists come up with and straight out denial.

I agree. Science is a continual process of review. Old material as well as new. I don't expect any of the current lineages to remain without review, change, addition or refinement as more information comes in.

There are a lot of strategies in use that go against my upbringing in Christianity. I can understand the difficulty of throwing off what each of us was raised around, but you can throw off the superfluous and outright contradictory while still remaining true to your beliefs. I can't follow the logic of denying what you can see with your own eyes.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm surprised at how the creationist arguments here are no different than they are anywhere you go. The same tactics of quote mining, reviving out of date material at the exclusion of more recent material, logical fallacies (the same old), pretending that scientists never considered the "gems" that creationists come up with and straight out denial.

I agree. Science is a continual process of review. Old material as well as new. I don't expect any of the current lineages to remain without review, change, addition or refinement as more information comes in.

There are a lot of strategies in use that go against my upbringing in Christianity. I can understand the difficulty of throwing off what each of us was raised around, but you can throw off the superfluous and outright contradictory while still remaining true to your beliefs. I can't follow the logic of denying what you can see with your own eyes.


It appears that his strategy is to bring out this dead horse every time that he sees someone new. I have seen this before. Creationists find failed arguments and simply won't let them go. It must be part of the severe cognitive dissonance that accompanies their beliefs. Lately I have merely been offering to discuss the nature of evidence with creationists without even bringing up the theory of evolution. They must know that they are wrong, they all run away from the offer.

I have had one creationist take me up on my offer and when he realized that he was wrong he ran away rather than admit it.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No, a theory needs evidence to back it up. In fact, it needs a great deal of evidence to be called a theory as opposed to a hypothesis. To be called a theory means it has been substantiated by observation in many different ways.

No, referring to a certain interpretation as a theory doesn't mean it's been substantiated, at least not in the sense of it being verified. Lol.

Superseded scientific theories - Wikipedia

There are even some, supported by scientists today, that contradict each other, yet they're both called theories.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
There exists, fossils that are older than the Cambrian and creationist claims fall apart even further in light of that evidence.

"Claims fall apart"?!
Those earlier fossils are mostly unicellular, and manifest no ancestral relationship to the fossils in the Cambrian! The Cambrian fossils appear abruptly, with no precursors evident.

What were you saying about dishonesty?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Excerpt: "The biostratigraphy – the relative appearance of biotas – continues to be problematic,"

Yeah, I'm sure it is, for the materialists. The discoveries present excellent support for IDers, though.

I'm well informed, and well-read on the subject.... Thanks. Maybe you should read the entire article, and note the gaps they admit are present. It's honest, to a degree, at least.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Excerpt: "The biostratigraphy – the relative appearance of biotas – continues to be problematic,"

Yeah, I'm sure it is, for the materialists. The discoveries present excellent support for IDers, though.

I'm well informed, and well-read on the subject.... Thanks. Maybe you should read the entire article, and note the gaps they admit are present. It's honest, to a degree, at least.
Your inability to read due to bias is well established. The paper speaks for itself and refutes your claims. Ignore and misread as is your wont. Free universe.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, referring to a certain interpretation as a theory doesn't mean it's been substantiated, at least not in the sense of it being verified. Lol.

Superseded scientific theories - Wikipedia

There are even some, supported by scientists today, that contradict each other, yet they're both called theories.

So you do not know what a theory is. But then neither did the writer of that article. They start off every badly by mentioning Lysenkoism. That was never a scientific theory. Using your own source:


"Lysenkoism (Russian: Лысе́нковщина, tr. Lysenkovshchina) was a political campaign against genetics and science-based agriculture conducted by Trofim Lysenko, his followers and Soviet authorities. Lysenko served as the director of the Soviet Union's Lenin All-Union Academy of Agricultural Sciences. Lysenkoism began in the late 1920s and formally ended in 1964."

Lysenkoism - Wikipedia

Why didn't you ask?

Scientific theories explain facts. The theory of gravity explains the fact of gravity. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. Remember, there is a mountain of scientific evidence that supports the theory of evolution. None of the creationists here have been able to demonstrate any scientific evidence for their superstitious beliefs.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My "Inability to read"? Why are you abusive?

I read it.
Then you would know that your claim regarding Cambrian was refuted.

Our view of the sequence of events in the Cambrian has thus been transformed in the last few decades, with the basal rocks now being known to contain a suite of trace fossils of moderate diversity, and an increasing diversity of small shelly fossils, including a large number of tubes, plates and cap-shaped fossils (e.g. [17]). The affinities of these early fossils are much debated as soft parts are unknown, but at least molluscs seem to represented.

For decades, researchers have been extracting small, sometimes fragmentary fossils preserved as organic carbon, from siliceous rocks using hydrofluoric acid (HF). The characteristic fossils recovered in this way – termed acritarchs – are a heterogeneous assemblage of pro- and eukyarotic taxa that probably include cyanobacteria, green algae, and other related groups, and their record extends deep into the Precambrian (e.g. [20]). More recently, remarkably-preserved organic fossils have been recovered using somewhat gentler HF methods from Cambrian rocks (e.g. [21]), and these promise to extend and complement the Burgess Shale-type material. The most significant find is of fragments that can be confidently assigned to crown-group crustaceans [22], and this has extended the record of many of these groups back at least to the middle Cambrian.

A particularly exciting recent development has been to calibrate the absolute age of this carbon isotope curve, using the co-occurrence of rocks suitable for isotopic evaluation with volcanic ash-beds lying within them, most particularly in Morocco. This dated carbon curve has been used to set up a global reference for faunas in many area of the world, especially in China, Mongolia and Siberia.
In detail, this method is not free from difficulties, and some of the results have been somewhat surprising (for example, the rocks in Mongolia, which bear a rather standard set of fossils, have been suggested to be somewhat older than similar rocks in Siberia), but the broad outlines of the sequence of events, and their timing, are now becoming somewhat clearer.

As the base of the Cambrian became reliably dated (e.g. [6, 7]), its age relationship to the underlying Ediacaran rocks and their perplexing biotas became clearer.

These include both the huge frond Charnia wardi [35], some specimens of which are over 2m in length, as well as an assemblage of what appear to be juvenile specimens of Charnia masoni [38]. Charnia masoni-like fronds are also known from the White Sea area from about 549 Ma [39,40], making this an extremely long-lived morph. Rather than representing a relatively short-lived burst of “failed evolutionary experiments”, the Ediacara-like biota was both long lived and cosmopolitan. More recently still, a biota from the Lantian Formation of South China has been suggested to be almost certainly older than this assemblage from Newfoundland [42]. It contains some macroscopic taxa that are probably algal in affinity, but also a more diverse range of organisms that are more intriguing. Indeed, one form (Fig. 3E3E of [42]) has recently been suggested to be related to the conulariids, a group of Cambrian problematica that are often compared to cnidarians [43]. If the dating and affinities can be sustained, this would suggest that both stem-group cnidarians and bilaterians were present almost all the way through the Ediacaran Period (635-541), which would be a signficant advance in our our understanding of early animal evolution. Once again, this is an area that would be worthy of further investigation.

Increasingly firm control on the dating of Ediacaran assemblages (reviewed in [36]) suggests a definite temporal distribution of the various clades they identify. The oldest assemblages in Newfoundland are dominated by “rangeomorphs”, although, rather curiously, Charniodiscus-like fronds are also present. In the later, “White Sea” and “Nama” assemblages, apparently bilaterally symmetrical and (presumably!) non-frondlike taxa such as Spriggina appear, and these are joined by the truly complex Kimberella [64]. An obvious explanation of this distribution, is that this diversification truly represents a radiation of basal animal groups, from sponge-grade at the bottom (rangeomorphs and potential sponges themselves) through stem-group eumetazoans and stem-group bilaterians.

Gould's view was that the Cambrian exceptional record revealed an unparalled explosion of different body plans, giving rise to a substantial diversity and disparity that was then pruned by later extinction. The problem with this view is that it has since become apparent that, rather than representing entirely distinct clades, most if not all of the known record represents stem groups to living groups (e.g. [48]). As a result, the Gouldian view has largely faded from the palaeobiological literature, even if it lingers elsewhere.

Nobody is claiming the picture is clear. It's not expected to be so far back in the past. But there is zero reason for skepticism given what is known so far.
 
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