I believe I already did.
See my previous post: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2347047-post210.html
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Evolution, scientific methods, and reason are losing in America's classrooms
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
See my previous post: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2347047-post210.html
I do see how bad religion stiffles our progress in many ways, not just scientific.
Go ahead and fight if you feel compelled to. The methods you use to fight with will do more to stiffle progress.
You have not proven that. You are presuming that. You do not appear any different to me than people who blindly fight against evolution just becuse they feel the need to protect their status quo.
I have not denounced any truths that science has proven.
Gunfingers
Happiness Incarnate
So your "complete proof" that it's true is, in fact, your "understanding" that it's a metaphor for a symbol for something that may have actually happened.
More importantly, that is happening right now. And I don't mean it's going to tell you who will win the super bowl and nonsense like that.
As I have said before, the Bible text is an oracle. Not entirely of course, but much of it is. If you cannot read it as such, you will chase your own tail trying to make sense of it all. Just like an architectural diagram full of symbols points to a very real structure, so too does the Bible point to very real societal structures. To a limited extent it is like the DNA of our current societal body here in America. Well, it was gearing up to be such, but it has been rejected both ignorantly and willfully and is now loosely held by a fatally ill body that cannot distinguish a cancerous cell from a healthy cell. It's salt has lost its saltiness and cancer and decomposition are running rampant.
Bear in mind, I have complete proof _for myself_ only. I am not making any offers to spell it all out for just anyone and especially not in a public forum. I have already seen how difficult it is to try and teach one simple principle here. I cannot fathom the difficulty I would have to endure trying to go through all of the proofs, which require understanding of more intricate principles with much more subtle distinctions to them. I would rather try and teach differential equations and linear algebra to gradeschool children.
Gunfingers
Happiness Incarnate
Well while we're at it i have complete proof _for myself_ only that i have an 11" penis, a billion dollars, and the virginities of the Davalos twins.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Your meaning here is not clear.
At least there are still some countires that are developing.
Ours isn't one of them.
Ours is decaying.
Bad religion is a primary factor.
If what you say is true you are due a hedonist's most hearty congratulations. Since this is a matter of utterly no significance to me, I am the least bit interested in validating the truth of your claim _for myself_.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
well answer me this, what developed country teaches creationism?
Here's what I see happening in our country.
Those that teach mainstream Creationism do so in such a way that students are spoken to as if it is a given. They are more or less told what to think. It isn't presented objectively as mere belief based on interpretation of a highly complex document. It is taught by individuals who don't know how to read that document and who rely merely on the power of majority opinion to perpetuate their insanity. They offer some kind of lip service to the scientific theory of evolution but spin it off in some way to marginalize it because it poses a threat to their belief system. Some will do so knowing they are abusing true facts because they worry their students will reject all sense of morals if the predominating view of the Bible is discredited. In short, they see no better way to serve society than to throw evolution under the bus. That science teacher in that video was a very good example.
Then, on the other side, you have some teachers who glory in evolution and the whole new secular humanist religion that is cropping up around it. They make no hesitation to denigrate and ridicule the afore mentioned idiots who are willing to throw facts under the bus, so to speak, in order to prop up a discredited religious fable. However, they are simply the other side of the same coin.
They present evolution and secular humanism in such a way that students are spoken to as if it is all a given. They are more or less told what to think. The facts of evolution are not presented objectively as merely facts explaining physical life's manifestation on this planet. The facts of evolution become their vehicle to inject their presumptuous extrapolations found in secular humanism. They denigrate and ridicule the Bible as outmoded barbarism unfit for a modernized society, as if they know how to decipher it and can speak with authority on it. They do this because they want to establish their new morality and their new social order in place of Biblical morality.
What we have going on here is two divided factions each holding onto different segments of truth while at the same time operating with an inability to discern how they have extrapolated insane conclusions from those truths. They each think to challenge their insane extrapolations is the same as challenging their truths.
This is why I have been trying to advocate certain principles here that will remedy most if not all of this problem. First of all, stop the brainwashing of our children that comes from people including their extrapolated self-serving presumptions being spoken of as if they are simply the way it is. All teachers should be trained at how to speak neutrally and objectively so that they do not trespass the minds of our children.
Whatever is taught in our classrooms should be taught in a purely objective manner. If evolution is taught then just teach its facts and omit the secular humanism tack-ons. If creationism is taught then adknowledge it is mere belief. And, I agree, if it is the science classroom then evolution deserves a full and complete exposition while anything religious in nature should be touched on lighty (if at all) and quickly passed off in a neutral way as beliefs only that are outside of the scope of the class.
This educational spirit leaves the minds of the students free to explore whatever truths call out to them, whether it be science and/or religion, and it helps dissipate the senseless grudgery that exists between two important segments of our society.
When all that is spoken is spoken as unlaced and unadulterated truth without the stigma "you are here to be told what to think" then students of such instruction shall be better able to perceive all truth and help make of us a more whole and complete society instead of a divided and decomposing society.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Thank you. My oversight. This only leaves my other question:
What is this "truth" of creationism you speak of?
That it merely pertains to the creation or organization of societal bodies upon specific portions of this planet for specific portions of time from the offspring of one particular Patriarchal/Matriarchal Deity.
Skwim
Veteran Member
All you're saying is that it's true that the term "creationism" pertains to X. It's like being asked what is the truth of Christianity, and you answer the it pertains to a religion revolving around the acceptance of a particular man as a savior. Or saying that "the truth of the Kennedy assassination is that a murder of a prominent person took place." Defining a word, "assassination" in this case, by citing its definition, "a murder of a prominent person," usually political, hardly speaks to the truth of the incident. Creation is an incident, and we don't need its definition, but the truth of it, which you claim to have. Where is your proof that the creationism given in Genesis is true?
Please recall, I already said I decline to "get into it" beyond what I have already shared. I wouldn't dare spoil the ecstasy of those seeking an understanding of these things independantly. I have no special advantage over anyone else. What I know is equally accessible to everyone. It is one of the greatest "real life" shows available and I'm not about to spoil it by telling you how it ends. I will say, there are a lot of people in for some very big (and unpleasant) surprises.
The only thing I need to show is that it is entirely feasible that I could have a real and practical definition of all the aspects of the creation account in terms we can verify for ourselves. If what is described by it does in fact exist based on its own definition, albeit conveyed in a metaphorical construct, then it is real.
If I told you about the assassination of President Kennedy and then you started to look and see the actual facts of the matter aligning with my account of things, you would find my account to be a factual description and therefore true.
Until you examined those facts for yourself you wouldn't know if my account was a reliable one or a false one. And, in the case of the Bible, you have the additional task of deciphering what the practical message is. For this, you need to get your own oil to burn in your own lamp.
Gunfingers
Happiness Incarnate
That's an awful lot of words you used just to say "I totally know, but i'm not telling you!" which, incidentally, is what i said when i was 8 and a friend asked me what a clitoris was.
Gday,
It did.
Evolution already won!
Even the Pope agrees.
Evolution is an accepted fact of nature.
Over the last century or more, in dozens of countries, 1000s of scientists of many different faiths have shown evolution correct with MILLIONS of tests and experiments.
Score FOR evolution : MILLIONS
Score against : 0
Score FOR creationism : 0
Score against creationism : many
That's why science agrees evolution is a fact of nature.
That's what creationism is known to be a religious fantasy.
Tragically, the US has become a religious nation and is teaching religious fantasy to it's children.
That's why the US is at the BOTTOM of education standards in the modern world.
Iasion
It did.
Evolution already won!
Even the Pope agrees.
Evolution is an accepted fact of nature.
Over the last century or more, in dozens of countries, 1000s of scientists of many different faiths have shown evolution correct with MILLIONS of tests and experiments.
Score FOR evolution : MILLIONS
Score against : 0
Score FOR creationism : 0
Score against creationism : many
That's why science agrees evolution is a fact of nature.
That's what creationism is known to be a religious fantasy.
Tragically, the US has become a religious nation and is teaching religious fantasy to it's children.
That's why the US is at the BOTTOM of education standards in the modern world.
Iasion
Gday,
jbug - You are as DISHONEST as the year is long -
You REFUSE to answer questions,
then you falsely claim you did !
An example :
That question requires a list of countries as an anwser.
But what WAS your answer :
"Here's what I see happening in our country.
...
blah blah blah "
NO list of countries !
You deliberately and obviously FAILED to answer the question !
Which is your typical practice - you simply IGNORE questions that you don't like, you just preach your faithful beliefs, then later you lie that you DID answer !
What a sick joke your posts are.
Iasion
jbug - You are as DISHONEST as the year is long -
You REFUSE to answer questions,
then you falsely claim you did !
An example :
That question requires a list of countries as an anwser.
But what WAS your answer :
"Here's what I see happening in our country.
...
blah blah blah "
NO list of countries !
You deliberately and obviously FAILED to answer the question !
Which is your typical practice - you simply IGNORE questions that you don't like, you just preach your faithful beliefs, then later you lie that you DID answer !
What a sick joke your posts are.
Iasion
Skwim
Veteran Member
Care to point out exactly where? The closest thing I've seen is in regard to your statement that you have proof that the creationism in Genesis is real, where you said, "I could, but I choose not to."
Don't care about your "real life" show, just show us the truth of creationism that you claim. So far all we've gotten is your definition of creationism: what it pertains to.
Sorry, but just because the terms you use may be grounded in fact doesn't make the definition in which they're used a fact. I could define a flying horse in terms whose meanings are grounded in fact: Horses exist; wings exist; beating wings enable creatures to fly; therefore, flying horses exist.
So a notion takes on actual existence because it can be defined in terms that carry meaning? So use your definition to validate the truth of creationism. Show us why creation necessarily exists because your definition of it says it must.
Right. So tell us about the facts of creationism so as to bring out its truth. That's all we're waiting for.
Oh please, not the Hardy Boys and the secret decoder ring that unlocks the mystery of the fallen arches. You even said that it should be taught to students, which implies that it can't be all that difficult: .
Jbug: "they should figure out what the Bible really intends and teach that right along side principles of evolution. It's all truth."
So let's not have any of this, "It's too arcane for your feeble mind to decipher," or some such nonsense. If this truth of yours can grasped by high school kids, as a college grad I'm pretty sure I can handle it.
I responded to his question and answered that I would only go so far. So, if you wish to call that being dishonest then help yourself.
I agree I should have replied to the exact question asked before I responded with my additional remarks. Go ahead and put one more feather in your cap of justified insults of jbug.
The answer is I have made no specific study of countries to be able to answer that question with any degree of certainty. His guess would be just as good as mine.
As long as I sense my children are enjoying being self-educated and they have a passion for things, I leave them alone as much as possible. And, pretty much any resource or reference material they want, I provide it for them. Self-educated people have consistently shown themselves to be the most capable individuals to make a positive difference in the world.
You all can stand around and polish a terd and try to get just the right luster upon it, but when you are done with all of your polishing you are still left with a stinky terd.
I've shared as much as I care to.
Thanks for the chuckle.
Look, I know I'm not delivering the actual goods. Why do you berate me for what I know I am doing and what I've said I'm doing? You yet speak as if I don't know I'm doing it.
Cry about it.
Cuss about it.
Insult me about it.
I've given sufficient clues such that any sincere person can put it together for themselves if that's what their path calls for. These people are who my posts are written for, not loudmouth mockers that just try and tear me to pieces.
I've given plenty enough information on this forum for you to figure it out for yourself.
There is a day that it shall be, but not to this generation.
As soon as THEY figured it out, they would have been welcome to do so. Our world would have become a much different place if they had. Much was done in the past to help in this regard but it was all soundly persecuted and rejected. It even went to severe cruelty and bloodshed to suppress it. Primarily by Christians even though it was exactly what Jesus told them to look forward to. The leaders of this nation and its people have done nothing in the way of reparations either. So, things have to go full circle and come back around in reciprocation first. Perhaps some individuals shall "figure it out" and be enabled thereby to step aside while the ricochet bullet of the "law of the harvest" zings past, but most are going to take it in the head because they have given their assent.
While your mind might be capable enough to grasp it intellectually, I don't see evidence suggesting you are ready to step up and live according to it. I don't think you understand the ramification of what you are asking for. You are better off to remain ignorant because if you did come to understand it, your level of accountability would be massively increased. You are where you want to be in the matrix right now so just enjoy it while you can. I am confident I am in a place you don't want to go. Those who belong here will find it on their own.