Evolution, scientific methods, and reason are losing in America's classrooms

[rusra02]

Then I assume you're in favor of:

​

An adroit twisting of my words, to be sure. Are you advocating not teaching astrology as a theory, while exposing it's weaknesses? Are you advocating only teaching what the ToE apologists want us to believe? I believe you are.

 

[rusra02]

And you didn't address my question.

If you are truly interested in an answer, you will search for it. That will require swimming upstream against the ToE propaganda machine, but the warts and failings of the ToE are there to be found by honest inquiry.

 

[McBell]

Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence' is being explicitly denied in the classroom (and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.
And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.

Claiming that not presenting non-science in a science classroom is not scientific merely shows your desperation.

 

[Skwim]

An adroit twisting of my words, to be sure. Are you advocating not teaching astrology as a theory, while exposing it's weaknesses? Are you advocating only teaching what the ToE apologists want us to believe? I believe you are.

Not so fast Blade Runner. First of all, how about confirming or denying that public schools should teach both sides:

Astronomy AND Astrology
Chemistry AND Alchemy
Psychology AND Phrenology
Evolution And Creationism
​

 

[McBell]

If you are truly interested in an answer, you will search for it. That will require swimming upstream against the ToE propaganda machine, but the warts and failings of the ToE are there to be found by honest inquiry.

If you truly had the answer you would present it.
But that requires actually having the answer, right?

 

[McBell]

Not so fast Blade Runner. First of all, how about confirming or denying that public schools should teach both sides:

Astronomy AND Astrology
Chemistry AND Alchemy
Psychology AND Phrenology
Evolution And Creationism
​

You forgot the Stork...

 

[Skwim]

Your forgot the Stork...

Quite right, but I'm trying to go easy on the guy.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

If you are truly interested in an answer, you will search for it. That will require swimming upstream against the ToE propaganda machine, but the warts and failings of the ToE are there to be found by honest inquiry.

Wow, this deserves two

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence' is being explicitly denied in the classroom (and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.
And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.

If you can show that it is scientifically possible to take a man, take his DNA and make a female then we might have something, in regards to creationism, to talk about. At best Eve would have been a clone of Adam but not likely a "female" clone. The sheep herders of the day knew nothing of science and had no idea their mythical story would come back to bite them in the bum......

We have enough problems in this country. I work in a school system and I've raised three kids and know the importance of NOT allowing the teaching of creationism/ID in the classroom. Let the kids learn it in church, bible study, seminary school or college.

 

[Revoltingest]

An adroit twisting of my words, to be sure. Are you advocating not teaching astrology as a theory, while exposing it's weaknesses? Are you advocating only teaching what the ToE apologists want us to believe? I believe you are.

I think you're on to something. Kids should be taught more about the basics & philosophy of the scientific method. After all "science"
is nothing more than application of the method, since all scientific knowledge is subject to revision. Let kids learn how to evaluate &
judge concepts from the fundamental methods & assumptions. But I warn you, the ToE will fare just as well as thermodynamics, physics,
chemistry, etc.

 

[kylixguru]

I think you're on to something. Kids should be taught more about the basics & philosophy of the scientific method. After all "science"
is nothing more than application of the method, since all scientific knowledge is subject to revision. Let kids learn how to evaluate &
judge concepts from the fundamental methods & assumptions. But I warn you, the ToE will fare just as well as thermodynamics, physics,
chemistry, etc.

Bravo!!! Well stated!

 

[rusra02]

I think you're on to something. Kids should be taught more about the basics & philosophy of the scientific method. After all "science"
is nothing more than application of the method, since all scientific knowledge is subject to revision. Let kids learn how to evaluate &
judge concepts from the fundamental methods & assumptions. But I warn you, the ToE will fare just as well as thermodynamics, physics,
chemistry, etc.

Finally, a voice for reason. Kids in the middle ages, if taught at all, no doubt were firmly instructed that the earth was flat, is the center of the universe, and other patent nonsense, with no dissent allowed. While we no longer burn people at the stake, dissenting views from the popular line are excoriated, mocked, and when possible, punished. No wonder honest scientists are reluctant to open their mouths when it comes to the ToE.

 

[Iasion]

Gday,

Finally, a voice for reason. Kids in the middle ages, if taught at all, no doubt were firmly instructed that the earth was flat, is the center of the universe, and other patent nonsense, with no dissent allowed.

As if evolution is like flat-earth belief.
As if we will find eventually out that we will find out evolution is not correct.

In fact, the opposite is true -

It's CREATIONISM that is like flat-eath belief (they even came from the same source.)

Evolition is like round-earth knowledge - it's a fact of nature that we found out by LOOKING at the evidence.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that evolution is an wild theory that will soon be found wrong. The opposite is true.

While we no longer burn people at the stake, dissenting views from the popular line are excoriated, mocked, and when possible, punished.

In fact, the opposite is true -

Scientists get the NOBEL PRIZE, and fame and fortune for showing previous views were wrong - such as Barry Marshall who dissented about the cause of ulcers. His dissent got him the Nobel and made him famous.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that dissent is punished in science - in fact the opposite is true.

No wonder honest scientists are reluctant to open their mouths when it comes to the ToE.

Another classic creationist fantasy - but completely untrue. In fact the opposite is true - all scientists in the field support evolution as a fact of nature, and say so openly.

And what exactly is being implied here? That scientists who support evolution are LIARS? Is that level of your debate?


Iasion

 

[newhope101]

Gday,



As if evolution is like flat-earth belief.
As if we will find eventually out that we will find out evolution is not correct.
You sound like a frustrated chook! ...and you believed humans decended from knuckle walkers not so long ago, lovey!!!!
In fact, the opposite is true -

It's CREATIONISM that is like flat-eath belief (they even came from the same source.) Desperation again. You must have run out of reasonable refutes to resort to desperate asides and exaggerations.

Evolition is like round-earth knowledge - it's a fact of nature that we found out by LOOKING at the evidence.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that evolution is an wild theory that will soon be found wrong. The opposite is true.
Too bad the scientists that rejected evolution went from 0.1% in 1987 to 13% in 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!



In fact, the opposite is true -

Scientists get the NOBEL PRIZE, and fame and fortune for showing previous views were wrong - such as Barry Marshall who dissented about the cause of ulcers. His dissent got him the Nobel and made him famous.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that dissent is punished in science - in fact the opposite is true.

Which bird ancestry do you suppot and please tell the forum and rusra why?
Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links

My experience of many evolutionists is that they are prepared to prattle on about how great their evidence is but when faced with a challenge they squirm and wriggle with every excuse but ultimately they are unable to defend any stance; Meaning they do not know!


Another classic creationist fantasy - but completely untrue. In fact the opposite is true - all scientists in the field support evolution as a fact of nature, and say so openly.

And what exactly is being implied here? That scientists who support evolution are LIARS? Is that level of your debate?

Perhaps you are being told that some credentialed researchers do not accept TOE. Perhaps you should listen and stop pushing lines that demonstrate a certain level of ignorance.


Iasion

The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, anthropology, and others.[16][17][18][19][20] One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) ... give credence to creation-science".[21] An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters states that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution".[22] A 1991 Gallup poll of Americans found that about 5% of scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists.[23][24]

There is a notable difference between the opinion of scientists and that of the general public in the United States. A 2009 poll by Pew Research Center found that "87% of scientists say that humans and other living things have evolved over time and that evolution is the result of natural processes such as natural selection. Just 32% of the public accepts this as true."[39]


Level of support for evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So guess what, there are scientists that do not accept your toe and to suggest that skepticism is the realm of the stupid uneducated creationist is a delusion created out of sheer ignorance. You can say most adhere to TOE, you cannot say all well credentialed researchers accept TOE.

Do not forget your garbage bin of delusionary irrefuteable evidence past, where your knuckle walking ancestry, LUCA, brain size relates to bipedal walking, gradualism replaced by punctuated equilibrium, florensiensis debarkle, your archaeopteryx and bird ancestry is on the way there, Ardi may be on the way there, etc etc etc, resides.

 

[LuisDantas]

You realize that you are contradicting your statements with the very evidence that you present to support them, right, NewHope?

The one number that might conceivably be used as some (very weak) support to your claims in the previous post is the 87% of supposed non-Evolutionist scientists. To your benefit, it refers to this link.

http://people-press.org/report/528/

Which, as you can see, comes from the Pew Research Center. I see no reason to assume that the 13% are due to anything more than plain lack of knowledge of Biology, particularly seeing as the sample is only specified as coming from "A survey of more than 2,500 scientists, conducted in collaboration with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS)", that is, they come from a culture that has a very strong and active Creationist movement. Not to mention that we don't even know how doubtful of Evolution those 13% are, since all that is stated is that 87% support Evolution.

And, of course, Evolution is not even a matter of belief anymore, so ultimately you are only commenting on how widespread biological knowledge is.

 

[barek333]

I think you're on to something. Kids should be taught more about the basics & philosophy of the scientific method. After all "science"
is nothing more than application of the method, since all scientific knowledge is subject to revision. Let kids learn how to evaluate &
judge concepts from the fundamental methods & assumptions. But I warn you, the ToE will fare just as well as thermodynamics, physics,
chemistry, etc.

This is a great post.

I just want to add a bit of info that I think would be interesting to hear. I come from a country where about 90% of population is roman-catholic. It is also not one of the most developed countries in Europe. I remember the science classes I had in my elementary and high school. We didnt talk about evolution in elementary school, but still after 6th grade there wasnt one person in class or in the school that thought the Earth was 6000 years old or that Man lived with Dinosaurs etc...We started talking about Evoultion and explaining the scientific method in high school and there wasnt any controversy there. And still I went to an all catholic class.

It wasnt till university that I met a person who said that he was an atheist.

The reason why people here dont believe in Creationism..or at least are in a minute numbers is that we have no(or again a very small number) fundamentalist believers, and when some do show up they are promptly ridiculed and quickly forgotten. Our priests never tell the creationism story as more then that..a story, most of them acknowledge ToE. And also here we have religion classes in schools since the first grade..yet still no propaganda occurs. I remember asking the religion teacher..in third or fourth grade that how all the creatures got on the ark and why dinosaurs werent there, and she replied that we musnt take those stories by word but get the meaning behind them...well that didnt make much sense also but I was content at the time

So to sum up, I think the biggest problem in US is the fundamentalist one, and also the problem of "teaching the kids everything"...of course free speech,free thought and free expression are great(est) values...but you have to be careful cos things you tell to a grownup who can discern between if they are ridiculous or not, can spin a young childs mind in the wrong direction if shown in a wrong light. Hmm, I hope this part made sense..not having English as a mother language can have a bad effect on writing skills

 

[gnostic]

I don't think the problem is theists. Not all theists reject teaching of evolution.

It is those damn American creationists and intelligent design craps. They totally disregards evidences that have been accumulated since Darwin's 1st publication. The creationists prefer to accept 2500-3000 myths, fairytale and magical do-dah that require no evidences. They preferred to lie their way, instead of using evidences and scientific method.

I would say let their schools become backward with religious indoctrination just like the Islamic terrorist camps. Let their biological education go backward.

They have already gone backward in medicine researches, by letting their congress hillbillie hicks to repeatedly squash stem-cell research.

 

[ericoh2]

I agree, we are falling behind, 21st century, people need to stop believing in 2000 year old fairytaes. Most of europe is made up of atheists now, time for the U.S to step up.

Who are you talking to?

 

[rusra02]

Gday,



As if evolution is like flat-earth belief.
As if we will find eventually out that we will find out evolution is not correct.

In fact, the opposite is true -

It's CREATIONISM that is like flat-eath belief (they even came from the same source.)

Evolition is like round-earth knowledge - it's a fact of nature that we found out by LOOKING at the evidence.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that evolution is an wild theory that will soon be found wrong. The opposite is true.




In fact, the opposite is true -

Scientists get the NOBEL PRIZE, and fame and fortune for showing previous views were wrong - such as Barry Marshall who dissented about the cause of ulcers. His dissent got him the Nobel and made him famous.

It's a popular creationist fantasy - that dissent is punished in science - in fact the opposite is true.




Another classic creationist fantasy - but completely untrue. In fact the opposite is true - all scientists in the field support evolution as a fact of nature, and say so openly.

And what exactly is being implied here? That scientists who support evolution are LIARS? Is that level of your debate?


Iasion

All scientists in the field support evolution as a fact? Really? You sure about that?
You must mean all scientists except the ones who don't?

Dissent is not punished in science? Really? Have you seen Ben Stein's movie Expelled?

Many scientists truly believe in evolution and honestly report evidence that does not support the theory. Others, Richard Dawkins notable among them, who claim evolution is a fact and beyond reasonable doubt are simply playing fast and loose with the truth.
The ToE is the biggest fraud ever foisted upon an unsuspecting public, drummed into the little minds of grade school children with no dissent allowed. I remember in high school a biology teacher who was teaching evolution was challenged by someone in class (not me). He quickly used his authority to silence the student, stating he was teaching what was in the textbook. That was a long time ago. The accumulated propaganda endlessly repeated is really the big lie. Not only are alternate possibilities to the ToE not allowed in the classroom, apparently neither is any rational discussion of the weakness of the theorie's foundations.

 

[McBell]

All scientists in the field support evolution as a fact? Really? You sure about that?
You must mean all scientists except the ones who don't?

Dissent is not punished in science? Really? Have you seen Ben Stein's movie Expelled?

Many scientists truly believe in evolution and honestly report evidence that does not support the theory. Others, Richard Dawkins notable among them, who claim evolution is a fact and beyond reasonable doubt are simply playing fast and loose with the truth.
The ToE is the biggest fraud ever foisted upon an unsuspecting public, drummed into the little minds of grade school children with no dissent allowed. I remember in high school a biology teacher who was teaching evolution was challenged by someone in class (not me). He quickly used his authority to silence the student, stating he was teaching what was in the textbook. That was a long time ago. The accumulated propaganda endlessly repeated is really the big lie. Not only are alternate possibilities to the ToE not allowed in the classroom, apparently neither is any rational discussion of the weakness of the theorie's foundations.

Gotta love the lengths some people will go to to ratify their beliefs in conspiracy theories.