Evolution vs Intelligent design/creationism

[Sapiens]

By a man's work shall you know him, President Trump has more practical demonstrable knowledge about creating wealth, than practically ever other president combined- so I'd trust him on this more than most... but there is a greater motive than money: Love- and it cannot be forced or bargained for, it has to be freely chosen, given, and that is the point of faith and salvation, it's only logical really..

That is patently absurd. Had Trump just taken the money he inherited and put it in mutual funds he'd be worth more today than he is. If he had paid his bills and not taken unreasonable advantage of the bankruptcy laws, he'd be worth nothing. That is not much of an example or creating wealth, more like stealing wealth from others.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

By a man's work shall you know him, President Trump has more practical demonstrable knowledge about creating wealth, than practically ever other president combined- so I'd trust him on this more than most... but there is a greater motive than money: Love- and it cannot be forced or bargained for, it has to be freely chosen, given, and that is the point of faith and salvation, it's only logical really..

Really, H. H. Holmes sold his victims skeletons to medical schools. Ted Bundy worked at a suicide prevention hotline. Maybe we should judge them by their works as well. As far as S&P 500 performances go in the first 100 days, Bush, Obama, Kennedy, and FDR all had better performances. In 2000, the unemployment for 16+ was 4%. In July 2017 it was 4.4%. With an approval rating of 37%, he is the worst on 7 decades. If a yardstick were used to determine what is a great businessman, Trump would measure less than 1/1000th of an inch. On ethics and morality, he would be thrown in Jail for his business practices alone(selling his name only for millions)). He is the most well know person on the planet, but for all the wrong reasons. The only thing that keep people from revolting is apathy, ignorance, impeachment hopes, and the 3years, 1month, 2weeks, 8hours before this international embarrassment will end. America has now proven to the world, that even an insane, bigoted narcissistic, immature, womanizing buffoon and megalomaniac, can become the leader of the free world. All to stop any more surprises like Obama from ever happening again. Don

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Actually, I applaud the scientific method, but its reach is limited to what is detectable by physical senses and instruments. The paranormal tells me there is more. And eastern wisdom traditions explain that 'more'. I have come to trust the masters of this tradition as their knowledge has by far best explained what is experienced by many and continues on from there. They claim to perceive beyond the physical senses and I have rationally come to believe them. This is not scientific proof but my best analysis considering everything.

By the way, using the scientific method aren't you agnostic to paranormal phenomena that makes no testable claims.

I'm not sure how rational it is to consider the supernatural that can't be demonstrated or verified, even by the individual claiming to experience it. How does one determine for themselves that they have experienced something "real" in their experience with the supernatural and how does it remain supernatural if there is something "real" to convince oneself and to demonstrate to others. It all comes down to faith from my perspective.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not sure how rational it is to consider the supernatural that can't be demonstrated or verified, even by the individual claiming to experience it. How does one determine for themselves that they have experienced something "real" in their experience with the supernatural and how does it remain supernatural if there is something "real" to convince oneself and to demonstrate to others. It all comes down to faith from my perspective.

It is my judgment after consideration that there are advanced souls/masters/gurus/clairvoyants that perceive and can teach things beyond what I can perceive.

The paranormal/miracles that the average person experiences show just how little the scientific method has uncovered about the breadth of reality. These paranormal events are really normal events in the greater reality seen by the more advanced.

The scientific method is fine but it is limited. I also learn from other sources particularly eastern (Hindu) and esoteric wisdom traditions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is my judgment after consideration that there are advanced souls/masters/gurus/clairvoyants that perceive and can teach things beyond what I can perceive.

The paranormal/miracles that the average person experiences show just how little the scientific method has uncovered about the breadth of reality. These paranormal events are really normal events in the greater reality seen by the more advanced.

The scientific method is fine but it is limited. I also learn from other sources particularly eastern (Hindu) and esoteric wisdom traditions.

What "paranormal/miracles"? I do not know of any. I do know of many paranormal claims that have fallen apart once investigated. By the way, just because something cannot be explained does not make it a miracle. Since far too often there have been fakes and frauds in that area my go to assumption is that it probably is a fake or a fraud until proven otherwise. One never starts off assuming extraordinary claims are true. There is a saying that covers this:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[George-ananda]

What "paranormal/miracles"? I do not know of any. I do know of many paranormal claims that have fallen apart once investigated. By the way, just because something cannot be explained does not make it a miracle. Since far too often there have been fakes and frauds in that area my go to assumption is that it probably is a fake or a fraud until proven otherwise. One never starts off assuming extraordinary claims are true. There is a saying that covers this:

Well after decades of study, I am 100% convinced the so-called paranormal exists. I have to wonder how extensively you have looked at the evidence to say they all fall apart when investigated. That sounds like a wishful statement by an atheist-materialist but it is not at all true.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The cumulative weight of all I have seen and heard is indeed extraordinary in my judgment.

The so-called paranormal is actually part and parcel of the normal in the extended version of reality presented in eastern (Hindu) and western esoteric wisdom traditions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well after decades of study, I am 100% convinced the so-called paranormal exists. I have to wonder how extensively you have looked at the evidence to say they all fall apart when investigated. That sounds like a wishful statement by an atheist-materialist but it is not at all true.
The cumulative weight of all I have seen and heard is indeed extraordinary in my judgment.

Your personal conviction is worthless. There are people that are 100% convinced that they win at casinos. By the way, you merely need to find some paranormal activities that have been well studied and still exist to shown that you are correct. That you could not speaks volumes. I am not the one with wishful thinking here. I am the one that is merely looking at the evidence.

The so-called paranormal is actually part and parcel of the normal in the extended version of reality presented in eastern (Hindu) and western esoteric wisdom traditions.

So what? Superstition exists as an explanation for the unexplained. The problem is that that leads to an ever shrinking god of the gaps. As your beliefs get investigated your paranormal events keep shrinking away until they are gone.

Do you remember James Randi and his million dollar challenge? No one ever earned it.

 

[George-ananda]

Your personal conviction is worthless.

My personal conviction is all important to me; just as your personal conviction is only important to you.

After years on the internet, it is not a valuable use of time to debate the details with someone who appears vehement on a subject. The paranormal and its so many subfields is an immense discussion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My personal conviction is all important to me; just as your personal conviction is only important to you.

After years on the internet, it is not a valuable use of time to debate the details with someone who appears vehement on a subject. The paranormal and its so many subfields is an immense discussion.

I am willing to change if shown valid evidence. You appear to lack it and yet still believe. That would make this particular belief of yours irrational. Personal conviction is worthless in a debate. Evidence rules there.

 

[George-ananda]

I am willing to change if shown valid evidence. You appear to lack it and yet still believe. That would make this particular belief of yours irrational. Personal conviction is worthless in a debate. Evidence rules there.

Here is just some evidence on one particular subject; Afterlife Evidence

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here is just some evidence on one particular subject; Afterlife Evidence

A collection of anecdotes and stories is not reliable evidence. But at least you are trying a little.

 

[George-ananda]

A collection of anecdotes and stories is not reliable evidence. But at least you are trying a little.

It's more than a collection of anecdotes and stories if you spend some time with it and are actually interested. Much has been seriously investigated. But at least I tried, right.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's more than a collection of anecdotes and stories if you spend some time with it and are actually interested. Much has been seriously investigated. But at least I tried, right.

Then find something substantial from the list. You are the one making an affirmative claim, I merely pointed out the lack of reliable evidence, and as presented that list fails.

 

[George-ananda]

Then find something substantial from the list. You are the one making an affirmative claim, I merely pointed out the lack of reliable evidence, and as presented that list fails.

No, this stuff can not be spoon-fed. The investigator has to really want to listen to both sides and form their own opinion. From past experiences with atheists: Unless you have an honest OPEN-MINDED interest what will happen is I will point to something and then I will get a link back from one of the hard-core skeptic websites that denounce everything paranormal.

You can pick any one of the many topics on that list in the link and I will be willing to discuss it. And also read any skeptical commentary on the subject that you can find. Listen to both sides and I would be willing to discuss it with you. Don't just listen to believers or skeptics. Listen to both.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, this stuff can not be spoon-fed. The investigator has to really want to listen to both sides and form their own opinion. From past experiences with atheists: Unless you have an honest OPEN-MINDED interest what will happen is I will point to something and then I will get a link back from one of the hard-core skeptic websites that denounce everything paranormal.

You can pick any one of the many topics on that list in the link and I will be willing to discuss it. And also read any skeptical commentary on the subject that you can find. Listen to both sides and I would be willing to discuss it with you. Don't just listen to believers or skeptics. Listen to both.

I am not that interested in the topic. And I am not doing your homework for you. I have had too much experience of true believers pointing to nothing. That you can't bring up anything of substance speaks volumes.

 

[George-ananda]

I am not that interested in the topic.

Funny you started our conversation then.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Funny you started our conversation then.

Merely to correct an obvious error.

 

[Sapiens]

I am not that interested in the topic. And I am not doing your homework for you. I have had too much experience of true believers pointing to nothing. That you can't bring up anything of substance speaks volumes.

Listening to believers is a waste of time, if they had any real evidence they'd no longer have to rely on faith and belief, and could be convinced skeptics, which is a much more powerful position.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It is my judgment after consideration that there are advanced souls/masters/gurus/clairvoyants that perceive and can teach things beyond what I can perceive.

The paranormal/miracles that the average person experiences show just how little the scientific method has uncovered about the breadth of reality. These paranormal events are really normal events in the greater reality seen by the more advanced.

The scientific method is fine but it is limited. I also learn from other sources particularly eastern (Hindu) and esoteric wisdom traditions.

It has been my judgement that there are people with knowledge that is greater than mine and they can teach this knowledge. On this we agree. But I have no knowledge of miracles that can be attributed to anything but a material explanation. Where it can't, there simply has been no evidence to make the call. Some people see something and immediately leap to their favorite conclusion without evidence or reasoning to take them there. Once that is done, no evidence or reasoning will bring some of those people back to ground. Anything that looks like a miracle is probably as you say, some form of reality we haven't figured out, even reality that we are well aware of but don't recognize how it applies to some situations.

The scientific method is limited to the evidence and rules of the natural world. Outside of having faith in something we can't see, that is the only set of rules and materials we or science has to work with.

 

[George-ananda]

It has been my judgement that there are people with knowledge that is greater than mine and they can teach this knowledge. On this we agree. But I have no knowledge of miracles that can be attributed to anything but a material explanation. Where it can't, there simply has been no evidence to make the call. Some people see something and immediately leap to their favorite conclusion without evidence or reasoning to take them there. Once that is done, no evidence or reasoning will bring some of those people back to ground. Anything that looks like a miracle is probably as you say, some form of reality we haven't figured out, even reality that we are well aware of but don't recognize how it applies to some situations.

The scientific method is limited to the evidence and rules of the natural world. Outside of having faith in something we can't see, that is the only set of rules and materials we or science has to work with.

I am all for science and its methods. But I do not subscribe to scientism, the thinking that science is the only way to learn about nature.

I know from my decades of study of the so-called paranormal that dramatic things do lie beyond the reach of current science. I am also certain from my study of eastern (Hindu) and western esoteric wisdom traditions that they can tell me in considerable detail about this ‘more’ beyond the reach of mainstream science. I have studied certain advanced souls/masters in considerable detail.

Even science tells us 85% of the matter in the universe (so-called dark matter) is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments. I believe the psychic senses of the masters and the gifted can perceive things our physical senses can not.

I will add that I believe that science should remain agnostic to my spiritual beliefs. But again, I do not learn about reality solely from physical science.