Evolution vs Intelligent design/creationism

[Truly Enlightened]

Do you really think that a God would be so threatened/angry by amputees or any human, to actually hate them? I don't think so. Indifference at best. I'm still waiting on the results of the Graviton experiments at CERN. Their results will confirm, or shed more light on our understanding of the multiverse, multi-dimensions, and the Origin of the BB. Once we can determine their properties, we can then determine how they interact with our reality, and can develop tools to detect this interaction. Why do all quantum particles exhibit point and wave duality? What is the fabric of space/time composed of? What are the properties and origin of Dark Matter and Energy? I don't believe that science will ever stop evolving and excelling. Until all the evidence is in, I will maintain an open mind. Don

 

[Sapiens]

I believe that there is a general consensus among believers as to what they generally believe in. It is in the particulars where there may be some disagreement and discussion. Remember, it is our personality that is shaped by our experiences, beliefs, and how we see our role in society. Scientifically controlled experiments involving testing the power of prayer can be set up and studied. Can the power of prayer really heal the sick or control the future? I think this would be a good start. I think that our psyche can benefit from a sense of purpose, community, security and belonging. Otherwise, life itself can be a very long time. Don

The "power" of pray has been scientifically tested and found wanting. I often ask why your God so hates amputees.

Do you really think that a God would be so threatened/angry by amputees or any human, to actually hate them? I don't think so. Indifference at best. I'm still waiting on the results of the Graviton experiments at CERN. Their results will confirm, or shed more light on our understanding of the multiverse, multi-dimensions, and the Origin of the BB. Once we can determine their properties, we can then determine how they interact with our reality, and can develop tools to detect this interaction. Why do all quantum particles exhibit point and wave duality? What is the fabric of space/time composed of? What are the properties and origin of Dark Matter and Energy? I don't believe that science will ever stop evolving and excelling. Until all the evidence is in, I will maintain an open mind. Don

Screw CERN, tests on prayer have already been done and prayer is found wanting. Why won't your god regrow amputees' limbs?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Screw CERN? Really? 73% of the Universe is Dark Energy(this is what caused the Big Bang); 23% is the Dark Matter that holds all the Galaxies together; 4% is made up of hydrogen and helium(the stars); and all the higher elements(including us) make up only 0.03% of the entire Universe. We are truly the accidently byproduct of the entire Universe. We were obviously NOT its purpose. Understanding why Gravity is 10 to the 25th power weaker than the weak nuclear force, 10 to the 36th power weaker than the electromagnetic force, and 10 to the 38th power weaker than the strong nuclear force, is certainly well worth the wait. Could it be that it looses it strength, because it effects are spread across a multiverse? It may also explain the Theory of Everything, and validate the String Theory. It may also provide the science necessary to go back beyond the singularity of the BB. For the first time we may be able to look outside of our own objective reality.

As I've stated before, we are all the product of a series of accidental and random events. The left-overs of an expanding Universe, if you will. Therefore, why would you expect the impossible to be possible? If you believe that a God took a limb, then why would you believe that a God would re-grow a new limb? Do you think that a God is fallible, or endowed with human attributes? I certainly don't. Amputees are the victims of a string of events that led to a tragic outcome, assuming that no one voluntarily chooses too lose a limb. Don

 

[Sapiens]

Screw CERN? Really? 73% of the Universe is Dark Energy(this is what caused the Big Bang); 23% is the Dark Matter that holds all the Galaxies together; 4% is made up of hydrogen and helium(the stars); and all the higher elements(including us) make up only 0.03% of the entire Universe. We are truly the accidently byproduct of the entire Universe. We were obviously NOT its purpose. Understanding why Gravity is 10 to the 25th power weaker than the weak nuclear force, 10 to the 36th power weaker than the electromagnetic force, and 10 to the 38th power weaker than the strong nuclear force, is certainly well worth the wait. Could it be that it looses it strength, because it effects are spread across a multiverse? It may also explain the Theory of Everything, and validate the String Theory. It may also provide the science necessary to go back beyond the singularity of the BB. For the first time we may be able to look outside of our own objective reality.

As I've stated before, we are all the product of a series of accidental and random events. The left-overs of an expanding Universe, if you will. Therefore, why would you expect the impossible to be possible? If you believe that a God took a limb, then why would you believe that a God would re-grow a new limb? Do you think that a God is fallible, or endowed with human attributes? I certainly don't. Amputees are the victims of a string of events that led to a tragic outcome, assuming that no one voluntarily chooses too lose a limb. Don

Your are missing the point. The issue at hand is the efficacy of prayer, and amputees prove that prayer has no effect despite the fact that it is clearly possible for some vertebrates to regrow limbs. Most of what you are raving about, string theory (which is really not a theory) and dark matter (which is only theoretical), etc., are off topic.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Just as some non-mammalian animals can regrow their limbs or body parts(even a new head), so can we humans. The problem is that we don't know how to turn on the right genetic switches, to prevent pluripotent stem cells from becoming cancer cells. My RAVE is that in the future it will be science that will solve these differentiation problems. It will be science that will unlock the answers necessary for the regrowth of new limbs. It will be science that will unlock the answers to the Origin of the Universe, or other parallel realities. Quantum Field theories ARE testable(although barely). General Relativity require that the Universe be smooth and continuous, Quantum Mechanics require that the Universe be disjointed and discontinuous. Both Theories are experimentally and mathematically correct, and both are unfortunately incompatible with each other. The String Theory is a mathematical valid Theory, with the potential to unify both Theories. Its major flaw is that its strings at this time can't be observed directly. But its effects and predictability is. So , it is a Theory, not a hunch, an idea, or a hypothesis.

It is obvious that you don't know the significance of Bosons and Gravitons, or their relationship to the vibrating strings. These vibrating strings seem to have the same properties as the Graviton. The properties and effects of Dark matter and Dark Energy ARE real, testable and measureable. They(in themselves) are simply not observable. Regarding the power of prayer, many studies in medical and psychological journals support the beneficial effects of prayer. If you are claiming that God created amputees out of hatred, then I simply disagree.

In 10-20 years from now, we may have all the answers, that you seem to already have. Maybe the next generation of minds will speed up the process. Don

 

[blü 2]

I will apologize you the day it becomes fact of evolution .

I accept your apology.

 

[gnostic]

The String Theory is a mathematical valid Theory, with the potential to unify both Theories. Its major flaw is that its strings at this time can't be observed directly. But its effects and predictability is. So , it is a Theory, not a hunch, an idea, or a hypothesis.

No, there are major flaws with String Theory, like it being too ambitious, making it more and more complex than when they started down this rabbit hole.

 

[Milton Platt]

I think multiple paranormal subfields point to consciousness without physical apparatus; Near Death Experiences, spirit/ghost phenomena, spirit communication, etc..

Provide your objective evidence so we can test it.

 

[George-ananda]

Provide your objective evidence so we can test it.

Are you part of a testing group? But anyway,

Here's a sampling

 

[Milton Platt]

Are you part of a testing group? But anyway,

Here's a sampling

I'm not a part of a testing group....whatever that is. I was looking for scientific verification of your claims. It is not in the link you sent to me. Your standards for evidence are very low compared to mine for such claims. The link is about a wide variety of claims, many simply hawking books to be purchased. There is not a single scientific paper among them. Don't refer me to such junk. I want to investigate YOUR claim.
thanks.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not a part of a testing group....whatever that is. I was looking for scientific verification of your claims. it is not in the link you sent to me. Your standards for evidence are very low compared to mine for such claims.
thanks.

You are quite a fast reader, wow. It includes references to controlled tests.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are quite a fast reader, wow. It includes references to controlled tests.

George, It starts off with a LAWYER talking about something he is unqualified to talk about in scientific terms. I can pick through all that stuff, but I can assure you that it is meaningless junk or there would have been a Nobel prize in there somewhere. Just as a starting point...near death experiences are of no value. recollections from a hallucinating oxygen starved brain are not something to pin a hypothetical supernatural world upon. Those can be rejected outright. I can spend the time going through each and every chapter of this link and deconstruct and destroy the arguments. Would that change your mind?? No

 

[Milton Platt]

Screw CERN? Really? 73% of the Universe is Dark Energy(this is what caused the Big Bang); 23% is the Dark Matter that holds all the Galaxies together; 4% is made up of hydrogen and helium(the stars); and all the higher elements(including us) make up only 0.03% of the entire Universe. We are truly the accidently byproduct of the entire Universe. We were obviously NOT its purpose. Understanding why Gravity is 10 to the 25th power weaker than the weak nuclear force, 10 to the 36th power weaker than the electromagnetic force, and 10 to the 38th power weaker than the strong nuclear force, is certainly well worth the wait. Could it be that it looses it strength, because it effects are spread across a multiverse? It may also explain the Theory of Everything, and validate the String Theory. It may also provide the science necessary to go back beyond the singularity of the BB. For the first time we may be able to look outside of our own objective reality.

As I've stated before, we are all the product of a series of accidental and random events. The left-overs of an expanding Universe, if you will. Therefore, why would you expect the impossible to be possible? If you believe that a God took a limb, then why would you believe that a God would re-grow a new limb? Do you think that a God is fallible, or endowed with human attributes? I certainly don't. Amputees are the victims of a string of events that led to a tragic outcome, assuming that no one voluntarily chooses too lose a limb. Don

That doesn't answer the question posed to you. If your god allows limbs to be blown off, or lost to disease, why does he not regrow them? Can he not do so? If he can then why does he not?

CERN is irrelevant to the question.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No, there are major flaws with String Theory, like it being too ambitious, making it more and more complex than when they started down this rabbit hole.

Too ambitious, too complicated. Gee, sounds like major flaws to me? Or, maybe the Theory simply needs more work, testing, refinements, and understanding. Without the direct application of parts of the String Theory, we would not understand many aspects and properties of a Black Hole. We could not verify Hawking's Radiation, or virtual reality. We would not understand, or describe many properties of Quantum Bits(qubits). Unfortunately, there is no other scientific candidates that can describe quantum entanglement, super-symmetry, gauge-string duality, gauge/gravity duality, and a myriad of other quantum problems. I'm still following the new discoveries at CERN and LHC. Who knows what new discoveries we will learn about the true nature of our reality. Don

 

[Milton Platt]

You are quite a fast reader, wow. It includes references to controlled tests.

Perhaps you can point me to one such controlled test...meaning that it is a double blind study done with a statistically large enough sampling and it has been verified by repeat testing by others.

Thank you.

 

[gnostic]

Too ambitious, too complicated. Gee, sounds like major flaws to me? Or, maybe the Theory simply needs more work, testing, refinements, and understanding. Without the direct application of parts of the String Theory, we would not understand many aspects and properties of a Black Hole. We could not verify Hawking's Radiation, or virtual reality. We would not understand, or describe many properties of Quantum Bits(qubits). Unfortunately, there is no other scientific candidates that can describe quantum entanglement, super-symmetry, gauge-string duality, gauge/gravity duality, and a myriad of other quantum problems. I'm still following the new discoveries at CERN and LHC. Who knows what new discoveries we will learn about the true nature of our reality. Don

I am not saying there are no merits to the String Theory, Don, but by trying to do everything, the theorists have made it impossible to test it.

I am not denying String Theory has great potentials, but that’s all really it is. It is not conclusive enough, and in many areas, it is still untested.

And in real science, theories that are only factual when they have been verified and tested.

Until it can be rigorously and conclusive tested, I think it far too early to be popping champagne bottles.

Believe me, I am willing to wait for the discoveries to be discovered...but until they do, I am not going to treated String Theory to be factual.

I am leaving String Theory in the wait-and-see-basket, and not in the trash bin.

 

[George-ananda]

George, It starts off with a LAWYER talking about something he is unqualified to talk about in scientific terms. I can pick through all that stuff, but I can assure you that it is meaningless junk or there would have been a Nobel prize in there somewhere. Just as a starting point...near death experiences are of no value. recollections from a hallucinating oxygen starved brain are not something to pin a hypothetical supernatural world upon. Those can be rejected outright. I can spend the time going through each and every chapter of this link and deconstruct and destroy the arguments. Would that change your mind?? No

I am 100% convinced by the evidence and the competency of the scientists and parapsychologists involved.

But there is nothing to be gained by us discussing it further.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am not saying there are no merits to the String Theory, Don, but by trying to do everything, the theorists have made it impossible to test it.

I am not denying String Theory has great potentials, but that’s all really it is. It is not conclusive enough, and in many areas, it is still untested.

And in real science, theories that are only factual when they have been verified and tested.

Until it can be rigorously and conclusive tested, I think it far too early to be popping champagne bottles.

Believe me, I am willing to wait for the discoveries to be discovered...but until they do, I am not going to treated String Theory to be factual.

I am leaving String Theory in the wait-and-see-basket, and not in the trash bin.

Well that is good to know. No theory is 100% testable or can be conclusively validated. Theories are valid, only when their laws consistently support them. The Quantum Theory is basically pure math and physics. But it works. And we can easily see the results/applications of its quantum mechanics today. It is because of the bad rep. the String Theory received in the 70's that affected its popularity for years. Presented only as science fiction. One of the equations in the Theory is from Michio Kaku(generic Lagrangian for the second quantized string field theory). But that is all changing with new and fresher minds.The String Theory is not only the only game in town, but its math works. It is rigorously being studied and vigorously being tested everyday. But like the Quantum Theory, it is the observation that must be obtained in the end. We are talking about particles(strings) many times smaller than the particles that make up the electrons. Do you know how much energy it would take to detect particles that size? Hopefully the LHC and CERN will have it in the nest 10 -15 years. Remember, a Nobel Prize is quite an incentive for any scientist.

I sincerely hope that, in the future, we are both pleasantly surprised. Don

 

[Ling]

I would say one of the best short treatise on this is a book "Evolution Creationism Christianity" by Dr Ellis Warner. He dismantles both evolution (abiogenesis) and also creationism (strict interp of genesis). His conclusions are that abiogenesis is a mathematically null hypothesis - and you'll note no evolutionist / atheist ever publishes the odds....

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I would say one of the best short treatise on this is a book "Evolution Creationism Christianity" by Dr Ellis Warner. He dismantles both evolution (abiogenesis) and also creationism (strict interp of genesis). His conclusions are that abiogenesis is a mathematically null hypothesis - and you'll note no evolutionist / atheist ever publishes the odds....

Could you present these odds?

(Also, evolution and abiogenesis are two different things, but we'll ignore that for now)