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Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?

themadhair

Well-Known Member
[/size][/font]right.... but you have never known a human with a fully developed brain half the size of yours... or with the extensive differences in the ribcage, jaws, brow, and other features.

Nor have you seen an ape that walks upright with hands, feet, hips and knees and jaws like ours.

So where do you draw the line between them?

What makes the top one an ape (and not a human ancestor according to you) and the bottom one a fully fledged human (and our ancestor).

hominids2.jpg


Where here do you draw the line? Which of these is human and which is "just an ape"?
Quoted in anticipation.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
[/size][/font]right.... but you have never known a human with a fully developed brain half the size of yours... or with the extensive differences in the ribcage, jaws, brow, and other features.

Nor have you seen an ape that walks upright with hands, feet, hips and knees and jaws like ours.

So where do you draw the line between them?

What makes the top one an ape (and not a human ancestor according to you) and the bottom one a fully fledged human (and our ancestor).


hominids2.jpg


Where here do you draw the line? Which of these is human and which is "just an ape"?

wa:do

I am at a lost with this “Where do I draw the line” what line? Are you asking me when apes turned into human? But I must tell you that IMO there is no such line as humans are humans and apes are apes, and they have always been two different species. I have never seen an ape that walk upright, but I have seen horrible deformities in humans though, and some that I have seen are the consequence of brain damage or malformation and they are known as spastic other are physical malfunctioning such as gigantism and dwarfism. I have conclude that I am not an evolutionist because most people here think of evolution as meaning that creatures turn into deferent species over time and I don’t believe that is the way life came into existence, so to me there is no line, have ever seen a person suffering macrocephaly or microcephaly?
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
I am at a lost with this “Where do I draw the line” what line? Are you asking me when apes turned into human? But I must tell you that IMO there is no such line as humans are humans and apes are apes, and they have always been two different species.
Look at the following picture and tell me where non-humans ceases and humans begin:
hominids2.jpg
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Themadhair,
I am reading up on this guy and find him quite knowledgeable, I saw the Video and the challenge, the ask is to provide a gene does has not evolved and I happen to believe that all living things have had changes (Micro-changes) what I don’t believe is that modern humans are evolved apes, nor do I believe that apes are evolved monkeys, nor that monkeys are evolved Lemurs.
Commenting on the documentary Evolution he said: Evolution makes a very selective presentation of the scientific evidence. For example, the series repeatedly offers evidence of minor variations in organisms such as the emergence of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria as support for Darwinism. Yet Darwin proposed that natural selection could produce not only minor changes like those now observed in bacteria, but also the major structural innovations in the history of life.
Few biologists dispute that natural selection produces small-scale "micro-evolutionary" changes such as those in the size and shape of Galapagos finch beaks (also featured in the series). But many now doubt that the Darwinian mechanism explains the large-scale "macro-evolutionary" innovations necessary to build new organisms (such as birds) in the first place. Thus, developmental biologist Scott Gilbert of Swarthmore University argues that "natural selection explains the survival, but not the arrival of the fittest."
Yet, Evolution gives no voice to such doubts. Worse, it makes numerous factual errors that exaggerate the evidential support for Darwinism. The series asserts that the universality of the genetic code establishes that all organisms had a common ancestor. But biologists have known for well over a decade that the genetic code is not universal. Brown University biologist Kenneth Miller asserts that the "imperfect" wiring of the vertebrate retina proves that natural selection, not an intelligent designer, produced the eye. God, in Miller's opinion, wouldn't have done it that way. To arrange the retina as Miller thinks best, however, would render it inoperative. The series leaves the distinct impression that a computer program has successfully simulated the evolution of the eye. But such a program nowhere exists - a fact recently verified by Professor Dan Nilsson (of Lund University in Sweden), the very expert that PBS interviewed about eye evolution.
http://www.arn.org/docs/pbsevolution/meyer092801.htm
I am sticking to the “God did and He did it in an awesome way” Do you think that Dover would want to take me to court for this? But in honesty I don’t know what went on with this court case, so I don’t have an opinion on it. Also I don’t understand how his refusal makes ID bunk? As for defending it as far as I can tell this fellow rites extensible pieces on this subject.
What do you think of Michael Behe?
Michael Behe claims to have shown exactly what Darwin claimed would destroy the theory of evolution, through a concept he calls "irreducible complexity." In simple terms, this idea applies to any system of interacting parts in which the removal of any one part destroys the function of the entire system. An irreducibly complex system, then, requires each and every component to be in place before it will function.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I am at a lost with this “Where do I draw the line” what line?

Which of those are human... and which are 'just apes'.
What is a human and what is an ape.... why are they different?

Are you asking me when apes turned into human? But I must tell you that IMO there is no such line as humans are humans and apes are apes, and they have always been two different species.
No, I'm asking you what the difference between an ape and a human is. Ape is not a species it's not even a genus... It's a much broader category.

I have never seen an ape that walk upright, but I have seen horrible deformities in humans though, and some that I have seen are the consequence of brain damage or malformation and they are known as spastic other are physical malfunctioning such as gigantism and dwarfism.
Yes, and such things leave distinctive traces on the bones... none of which are found in these healthy individuals.

I have conclude that I am not an evolutionist because most people here think of evolution as meaning that creatures turn into deferent species over time and I don’t believe that is the way life came into existence, so to me there is no line, have ever seen a person suffering macrocephaly or microcephaly?
So there was a separate creation for wolves and foxes and coyotes and dingos?
If so, then yes... you don't accept evolution.
Yes, as a biologist I have seen examples of Macro and Microcephaly... enough to know that the deformities are not the same as the healthy skull of a Homo erectus or Australopithecus.
Though creationists have lately been trying to shoe-horn these fossils into that category it is only because they don't actually have the medical or paleontological or biological knowledge to know better... or the honesty to admit it.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
But many now doubt that the Darwinian mechanism explains the large-scale "macro-evolutionary" innovations necessary to build new organisms (such as birds) in the first place. Thus, developmental biologist Scott Gilbert of Swarthmore University argues that "natural selection explains the survival, but not the arrival of the fittest."

*sigh*
This is a typical misunderstanding of what is being talked about. Darwin was just the bedrock of evolutionary theory not the whole thing. Yes, natural selection doesn't account for how major changes happen... just how they spread through the population.
Scott is a genetic evolutionary specialist.... he is talking about Evolutionary Development (evo-devo) the genetics behind evolution.
No serious biologist doubts "macro-evolution" ... Not even Scott... if he did he'd hardly spend his lifes work on figuring out how the shell of the turtle evolved via genetics.
Cebra-Thomas, J., Tan, F., Sistla, S., Estes, E., Bender, G., Kim, C., and Gilbert, S. F. 2005. How the turtle forms its shell: A paracrine hypothesis of carapace formation. J. Exp. Zool. B: 558 – 569
We propose a two-step model for the evolutionary origin of the turtle shell. (1) We show here that the carapacial ridge (CR) is critical for the entry of the ribs into the dorsal dermis, and present evidence that FGF signaling is critical for this to happen. (2) We demonstrate that once the ribs are in the dermis, they act as signaling centers for the conversion of dermis into bone. This stage is dependent on BMP signaling.
Recent Papers- Dr. Scott Gilbert

The series asserts that the universality of the genetic code establishes that all organisms had a common ancestor. But biologists have known for well over a decade that the genetic code is not universal.

Yes it is!
The exact opposite is true... the past decade has only shown us more and more exactly how univeral the genetic code is. We all use the same genes... humans, elephants and butterflies. Obviously this guy is either outright lying or is totally out of touch with modern science!

To arrange the retina as Miller thinks best, however, would render it inoperative
Tell that to a squid... who has that better "design"... and much better eyes than we do. Again, this guy is showing a total lack of education in basic biology.

What do you think of Michael Behe?
Michael Behe claims to have shown exactly what Darwin claimed would destroy the theory of evolution, through a concept he calls "irreducible complexity." In simple terms, this idea applies to any system of interacting parts in which the removal of any one part destroys the function of the entire system. An irreducibly complex system, then, requires each and every component to be in place before it will function.

There has never been a suggested "irreduciblely complex" system that has held up to actual scruteny... a fact that Dr. Behe was totaly smacked down about during the Dover Trial.

In short I'd suggest that you be very careful when picking your sources... just because they agree with your opinion, that doesn't make them accurate or informed.

wa:do


 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
I am reading up on this guy and find him quite knowledgeable,
So knowledgeable he wouldn’t defend his ides in court.

don’t believe is that modern humans are evolved apes,
See the above picture and tell where is the point where non-humans stop and humans begin.


Commenting on the documentary Evolution he said: Evolution makes a very selective presentation of the scientific evidence.
BS. Let’s be frank about this, the best data against evolution that the Disco Tute offered in textbook forms was ‘Pandas and People’. This got shredded in court as being full of inaccurate and misleading gosa. Read the Dover trial transcripts for yourself and you might learn something.

Yet Darwin proposed that natural selection could produce not only minor changes like those now observed in bacteria, but also the major structural innovations in the history of life.
Firstly, the idea of large changes existed long before Darwin. What Darwin did was offer the mechanism of small changes that explained how the big changes arose. But the contention is moot given genetics and fossils (like those skulls which you are ignoring).

But many now doubt that the Darwinian mechanism explains the large-scale "macro-evolutionary" innovations necessary to build new organisms (such as birds) in the first place.
Project Steve showed this to be untrue. I understand the constant need for you folks to try and pretend that there is a scientific controversy over this but, and if you ever looked at the peer-reviewed literature you would know this, there is no research whatsoever being done on ID. None.

Thus, developmental biologist Scott Gilbert of Swarthmore University argues that "natural selection explains the survival, but not the arrival of the fittest."
The above is true and I’m willing to bet that there isn’t a biologist on the planet who would disagree with the idea of the statement. The problem is that you are so utterly clueless that you think this statement supports your idea.
Natural selection can only select – you also need the variation which comes from genetic mutations. Evolution is both natural selection and genetic mutation. The above quote is the typical attempt at rhetoric from someone who really should learn the subject before making the type of mistake that a high-schooler should be able to spot.

Yet, Evolution gives no voice to such doubts.
By ‘evolution’ I think you mean ‘the scientific community’. You want to challenge the dominant paradigm in science? Then you gotta do the research and provide the evidence. Empty rhetoric gets destroyed in scientific academia and with good reason.

Worse, it makes numerous factual errors that exaggerate the evidential support for Darwinism.
You have consistently and systematically ignored any and all such evidences that have been provided on this forum. Ignoring those evidences and pretending they do not exist is your choice. But claiming they don’t exist doesn’t make them go away – it just makes you ignorant and denialist.

But biologists have known for well over a decade that the genetic code is not universal.
Maybe you should tell that to the biologists because the universality of the genetic code is the strongest argument they use for a universal common ancestor.

To arrange the retina as Miller thinks best, however, would render it inoperative.
Tell that to the members of the octopus family who have such a retina arrangement as Miller recommends, because they really need to know that their eyes are ‘inoperative’.

The series leaves the distinct impression that a computer program has successfully simulated the evolution of the eye.
And it has. The mutations required such that there exists a constant positive selection pressure laying out the gradualistic steps for the eye has been done. The results of the simulations can be used to make predictions regarding the genetics of the eye and what ‘by-products’ we can expect of the process. And guess what? The simulations match the genetic evidence.

I am sticking to the “God did and He did it in an awesome way”
Actually you are going for the hear no evidence see no evidence approach.

Do you think that Dover would want to take me to court for this?
If you use public money to teach your crap to kids while pretending it is science then I am sure there would be no shortage of people lining up to sue you.

But in honesty I don’t know what went on with this court case, so I don’t have an opinion on it.
Maybe you should ******* find out? You might realise why real scientists are getting royally ticked off everytime one of you clowns tries to play scientist by peddling scientific gosa to the public. What you folks are trying to do when it comes to science education is redefine the nature of science from an evidence-based methodology to an appeaser of your religious sensibilities. The result being the scientific retardation of the next generation of otherwise good scientists.

Also I don’t understand how his refusal makes ID bunk?
Because when real scientists met ID proponents the ideas of ID were demonstrated, by using actual evidence, to be both unscientific and founded on deliberate distortions of well established scientific propositions. Read the Dover transcript and you might learn what it is you are truly supporting.

What do you think of Michael Behe?
Did you know that Behe’s Dover testimony crippled ID in Dover? He admitted that, in order to permit ID as science, you would have to redefine science so loosely that astrology also becomes science. In his latest book he practically admits common descent, albeit with the whole ‘goddidit’ approach.

Michael Behe claims to have shown exactly what Darwin claimed would destroy the theory of evolution, through a concept he calls "irreducible complexity."
Funny that he got owned on that very topic during the Dover trial. And, for the record, Darwin said that by demonstrating the existence of a system that could not have arose by gradualistic changes under selection you would have falsified evolution. This is not the same as irreducible complexity as I’ll discuss below.

In simple terms, this idea applies to any system of interacting parts in which the removal of any one part destroys the function of the entire system. An irreducibly complex system, then, requires each and every component to be in place before it will function.
But irreducible complexity does not mean unevolvable. Irreducibly complex chemical pathways evolve all the time in laboratory experiments subjecting bacteria to environmental attritions.
The three irreducibly complex systems Behe brought to court, the flagella, the endocrine system and the blood clotting system got routed by real scientists. The flagella in particular got routed, and when Behe turned his nose at the stack of peer-reviewed papers sat in front of him detailing the evolution of the blood clotting system I think the judge might have realised what was going down.

To disprove irreducible complexity consider this analogy. You are a bricklayer and you can add or subtract one brick at a time (this is somewhat analogous to mutations). Adding or subtracting only one brick at a time it is possible to build a Roman arch (an irreducibly complex structure).

Evolution works in a similar way because the function of the final form of a structure doesn’t have to be the same as its ancestral function. Feathers weren’t evolved because creatures wanted to fly, they evolved because they provided insulation. That they were co-opted for flight doesn’t change this. The ancestral forms of the flagella, for example, are still present in some extant bacteria. The same goes for the blood clotting system.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
But (as I told ya a week ago) you are wasting your time because you are not meeting his REAL objection.

I am sticking to the “God did and He did it in an awesome way”

And he is NOT going to abandon that position because you produce scientific evidence to the contrary. He just isn't. None of the ID'ers can. What you are missing is that this is NOT really a scientific question for these guys. At root it is theological and they are serious about their theology. Sure he is stunningly ignorant of the evidence for ToE. But doesn't matter. Even when presented with evidence it STILL doesn't matter. As his answer about the line between the skulls shows. NOTHING in the way of scientific evidence is going to shake his theology.:shout

It CAN'T. By definition.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
And yet the science isn't against his theology....
Unless he is a biblical literalist... in which case it isn't just evolution he must disagree with, but all of human scientific achievement.

wa:do
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I give you guys this much. You are willing to spend a lot of time and effort on this case of arrested development.

But (as I told ya a week ago) you are wasting your time because you are not meeting his REAL objection.

I am sticking to the “God did and He did it in an awesome way”

And he is NOT going to abandon that position because you produce scientific evidence to the contrary. He just isn't. None of the ID'ers can. What you are missing is that this is NOT really a scientific question for these guys. At root it is theological and they are serious about their theology. Sure he is stunningly ignorant of the evidence for ToE. But doesn't matter. Even when presented with evidence it STILL doesn't matter. As his answer about the line between the skulls shows. NOTHING in the way of scientific evidence is going to shake his theology.:shout

It CAN'T. By definition.
Exactly. Emiliano's posts make it very clear that he knows almost nothing about evolutionary biology. Therefore, his rejection of the ToE cannot be empirically based.

His posts also make it very apparent that the root cause of his denialism is his religious beliefs. IOW, the basis for his position is theological, not empirical. And that begs the question....

Why attempt to discuss evolution from an empirical standpoint, with someone whose position is rooted in theology? All you're doing is guaranteeing that you'll end up talking past each other.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
Because not all people of faith are unreasonable... most are just undereducated on the subject and have been shoveled nonsense. Most people genuinely want to learn.

wa:do

That is a noble uplifting and tolerant position.

(Seriously - no sarcasm intended.:))

But I must tell you that my more than 40 (nay 50!) yrs of experience in dealing with these folk just does NOT support it.

And the more honest and articulate among them have a plausible argument as to why. One voiced in the film "Inherit the Wind." And interestingly also voiced in "Fiddler on the Roof."

It runs something like this.

For the true believer "faith" is a critical part of their lives. It colors, if not outright controls, most of what they do and think. It impacts there daily lives in ways the non-believer can't even imagine. If that faith is destroyed the very fabric of their lives is torn asunder. If forced to chose they will literally abandon their children rather than abandon their faith. A point made in both films.

The "facts" of science have no such relevance for these people. The ages of rocks will never mean as much to them as The Rock of Ages. And it shouldn't. The bible several times times refers to "childlike faith" and for good reason.

That is one reason I think Clark's "Childhood"s End" is such an interesting idea.;)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
That is a noble uplifting and tolerant position.
Thank you... I try.. sometimes better than others... but I try.

But I must tell you that my more than 40 (nay 50!) yrs of experience in dealing with these folk just does NOT support it.
well, thankfully my experience has been a little better... I know a couple of people who have learned that science and faith are not mutually exclusive.
I've also known a few people, who while still creationists... are at least better informed about science and are willing to examine it and creationism more closely. While theologically they are creationists, they are more likely to be critical of claims from folks like AIG...

I don't seek to change anyone's faith... I'm not in this to convert people. I genuinely believe that faith and science are compatible... perhaps that is why I've seen a different side to things?

wa:do
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Is it possible to engage in a debate with someone removed from reality and not talk past each other?
Probably not.

Then why do it?
Entertainment. I've yet to lose my fascination with human behavior, especially the type of behavior typical of denialism.

Because not all people of faith are unreasonable... most are just undereducated on the subject and have been shoveled nonsense. Most people genuinely want to learn.
Unfortunately, those aren't the people who come to these boards and debate evolutionary biology. The "people of faith" who frequent science/religion forums are like Henneni, littlenipper, and Emiliano; they come here to preach with absolutely no interest in learning a thing.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
And yet there are some like myself... and some like Sandy and Rocketman who have shown a genuine willingness to discuss and learn about the subject.

wa:do
 
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