Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?

[Luminous]

OMG the missing link was found. its a lemor monkey. what more evidence that human's evolved do you need?

 

[themadhair]

OMG the missing link was found. its a lemor monkey. what more evidence that human's evolved do you need?

Add it to the other pile of 'missing' links.

Do any creationists actually know just how many fossils we have showing the transition from our ape-like ancestor to modern day humans??

 

[emiliano]

Count me in among those who are totally confused as to what Emiliano's position is. When presented with a summary of one part of the chromosomal evidence that supports the common ancestry between humans and chimps, he says "I agree" and throws his support behind evolutionary theory. But now he says "apes have always been apes and humans have always been humans", completely contradicting evolutionary theory.

I have said this enough times already present DAY HUMANS evolved from ancient humas that looked different to us, when did I say that I agree that we are evolved Chimp?

Maybe Emiliano should take a bit of time and contemplate his own position, thoroughly think it through, and fully understand it, so future conversations won't be so scattered and frustrating.

Joselito, Joselito I went back many post but this is what I replied to you after you Chimp post:Jose Fly.
Well what we are discussing is: Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway. Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is. The OP is says there are plenty evidences for evolution, and is true there are, my position is that evolution is God guided and we are at stage in which an understanding of the infinite wisdom and power of God is better understood and it feels ( I meant fill) me with owe at the magnificence of God the creator.

 

[themadhair]

I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident

Evolutionary theory, with evidence such as the fusion of chromosome number 2, clearly requires both humans and chimpanzees to be from a common ancestor. Do you accept this? I ask this question in a very clear manner because I am not sure you are aware that this implication stems directly from evolutionary biology.

I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway.

By ‘evolutionist’ you mean ‘biologist’. Using terms invented by creationists for the purpose of propaganda doesn’t do much for credibility.

Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is.

If ID is a theory then kindly explain a single verified testable prediction it made.

 

[Tristesse]

Joselito, Joselito I went back many post but this is what I replied to you after you Chimp post:Jose Fly.
Well what we are discussing is: Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway. Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is. The OP is says there are plenty evidences for evolution, and is true there are, my position is that evolution is God guided and we are at stage in which an understanding of the infinite wisdom and power of God is better understood and it feels ( I meant fill) me with owe at the magnificence of God the creator.

See thats the problem, The only "evidence" (I feel ashamed using that word) ID has, is attempting to poke holes in the theory of evolution. And you can do that with any theory including gravity. ID needs to have it's own evidence before it can even be considered. If evolution was proven false tomorrow that doesn't mean ID is correct, it just means the theory of evolution wasn't the right mechanism. ID has to have it's own evidence! that needs to be repeated. Evidence for something is not poking holes in a well substantiated theory.

 

[Jose Fly]

Emiliano,

The problem is, your response "Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist" was in the context of the data from human chromosome 2 providing strong evidence for human/chimp common ancestry. But later you say you believe that humans and chimps don't share a common ancestry. Further, you refused to explain exactly how you determined that human chromosome 2 is the product of "design".

Simply put Emiliano, you haven't offered a shred of evidential support for any of your assertions and you've managed to confuse a lot of people about exactly what your position is. When you say "humans have always been humans" and assert that human chromosome 2 is "evidence of a designer", are you expecting everyone here to just accept your say-so as unquestioned gospel? Do you think things are so simply because you say they are?

 

[Autodidact]

Let's make it simple, emiliano, which of these is right?

1. You accept the Theory of Evolution.
2. You reject the Theory of Evolution.
3. You accept some parts and reject others.
4. You don't know exactly what the Theory of Evolution says.
5. Something else. If so, what?

 

[emiliano]

You contradict the Theory of Evolution. Do you accept it or not?

You contradict the Theory of Evolution. Do you accept it or not?

I am posting this just to show you how confusing you are, what was your question?
This statement directly contradicts ToE, which you say you accept. You either buy it or you don't, emiliano, that's how science works. ”But now your turned into " You contradict the Theory of Evolution. Do you accept it or not?”which of these two theories do you want me to address” I have post my position on both these theories. On ToE, The earth is bellions of years old, on evolution: Today’s humans are different than the humans what they were millions of years ago, their evolution is evident. And what I don’t buy is the lemur turning into apes that turned into human’s thing.

 

[emiliano]

See that's the problem, The only "evidence" (I feel ashamed using that word) ID has, is attempting to poke holes in the theory of evolution. And you can do that with any theory including gravity. ID needs to have it's own evidence before it can even be considered. If evolution was proven false tomorrow that doesn't mean ID is correct, it just means the theory of evolution wasn't the right mechanism. ID has to have it's own evidence! that needs to be repeated. Evidence for something is not poking holes in a well substantiated theory.

That's because the theory is full of holes, but stepping back and looking at these two disciplines (Philosophy and science) they are both doing the same poking holes into each other, which is sad really when it could has been a bridge between the two.

 

[emiliano]

Evolutionary theory, with evidence such as the fusion of chromosome number 2, clearly requires both humans and chimpanzees to be from a common ancestor. Do you accept this? I ask this question in a very clear manner because I am not sure you are aware that this implication stems directly from evolutionary biology.
By ‘evolutionist’ you mean ‘biologist’. Using terms invented by creationists for the purpose of propaganda doesn’t do much for credibility.

Evolutionary theory, with evidence such as the fusion of chromosome number 2, clearly requires both humans and chimpanzees to be from a common ancestor. Do you accept this? I ask this question in a very clear manner because I am not sure you are aware that this implication stems directly from evolutionary biology.
OK let stay on this for a little while longer, this clearly requires thing first, Humans and Chimpanzees are two totally different species and they co-existed, Chimpanzees are still around and you telling me that one descended form the other? There is another fellow trying to introduce a supposedly ancestor of the apes; a deformed Lemur of all thing! This allegedly 40 billion years old lemur that turned into ape later became human and they even tell you that they know how it died, that it had a fracture and that is why it fell in the water that preserved it, how do like that for speculations? BTW it was Joselito that said that because the two short chromosomes fit one on the other to form one that is the same length as the others, this is evidence that they fused and that is how the human species came to be. This is after we discussed the banana thing that was so funny “The difference between me and the banana over there is in the way those four letters are arranged within mine and the banana's DNA. And then you topped that one with the Gravity god.

If ID is a theory then kindly explain a single verified testable prediction it made

ID is a philosophical work and all it said was that God created all there is, the predictions/prophesies that it makes are in the Bible.

 

[emiliano]

Joselito,
I am sorry that you get confused, what I have said is:
This show the How of evolution and the purpose is that at one stage this mutation was to happen, it was designed that way, I don't know why it happen to some kind of the apes and not others. Do you know? I don't believe that this is an accident because it is obvious that it isn't accidental but purposeful that's how I made the difference, you said that the fused chromosomes fit perfectly and that prove that fusion took place, what about the other apes, do they have these chromosomes and why didn’t they fuse? You have not answer this question and I did not expressed my position too well so maybe now you can?
Another
Emiliano,
Quote:
This show the How of evolution and the purpose is that at one stage this mutation was to happen, it was designed that way

“You replayed: Things are not so because you say they are. All you've done is say "It was designed" and when asked how you came to that conclusion, you answer, "It was designed". Not very compelling.

I hope that you understand that your theory that the two short Chromosomes that can form one of the same sizes as the rest is compelling. Do you?

Not quite. I said the evidence from the chromosomes themselves are exactly what we would expect if human chromosome 2 were the result of a fusion between two other chromosomes.

Emiliano,
My position is that Humans have evolved, that today's humans are different from humans that lived hundred of thousand of years ago, that they are evolved human not apes that evolved into humans, I don't believe that human are evolved apes any more than I believe that apes evolved from monkeys and that they in turn evolved from Lemurs.

 

[themadhair]

OK let stay on this for a little while longer, this clearly requires thing first, Humans and Chimpanzees are two totally different species and they co-existed, Chimpanzees are still around and you telling me that one descended form the other?

I am not telling you that one descended from the other. I am telling you that both originated from a common ancestor. Maybe you should actually try reading what I actually write?

There is another fellow trying to introduce a supposedly ancestor of the apes; a deformed Lemur of all thing!

Then you do not accept the theory of evolution. That ‘deformed Lemur’ as you described it is part of the linage shared by both humans and the other apes and monkeys. There was a time, around 40-50 million years ago, when there were no humans and no apes and no monkeys – and the ‘deformed lemur’ species were the only ape-like things on the planet.

This allegedly 40 billion years old lemur that turned into ape later became human and they even tell you that they know how it died, that it had a fracture and that is why it fell in the water that preserved it, how do like that for speculations?

It wasn’t 40 billion years but I suspect you have a reading difficulty at this point. It did have a fracture – why do you deny this given that the skeleton is available to determine this? That the fracture was responsible for the creature falling into the water is speculative, but makes sense given the evidence at hand.

BTW it was Joselito that said that because the two short chromosomes fit one on the other to form one that is the same length as the others, this is evidence that they fused and that is how the human species came to be.

Jose did not claim the fusion was how humans came to be. This is your reading difficulty kicking-in again. What Jose did say was that this fusion, which genetic sequencing has mapped in such detail that we can know which primate chromosomes underwent the fusion, was overwhelming evidence that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor.

“The difference between me and the banana over there is in the way those four letters are arranged within mine and the banana's DNA.

The above is quite correct. My DNA contains the blueprints for making me, and those blueprints are determined by how those four-letters are arranged within my genome. The banana DNA contains the blueprints from making a banana, and those blueprints are determined by how the four-letters are arranged within the banana genome.
Exactly which part of this false?

ID is a philosophical work and all it said was that God created all there is, the predictions/prophesies that it makes are in the Bible.

Unfortunately for you the bible has utterly failed as an explanation for how life came to be. ID is not an argument for the bible but for deism. This point will be lost on you I suspect.

Also – learn how to use the quote function. It doesn’t help that you are struggling with basic reading comprehension and it doesn’t help that you don’t know the meanings of terms used in this debate (such as evolution for one). Not being able to determine what is or isn’t a quote in your posts only makes things even more incoherent than they already are.

 

[Autodidact]

I am posting this just to show you how confusing you are, what was your question?
This statement directly contradicts ToE, which you say you accept. You either buy it or you don't, emiliano, that's how science works. ”But now your turned into " You contradict the Theory of Evolution. Do you accept it or not?”which of these two theories do you want me to address” I have post my position on both these theories. On ToE, The earth is bellions of years old, on evolution: Today’s humans are different than the humans what they were millions of years ago, their evolution is evident. And what I don’t buy is the lemur turning into apes that turned into human’s thing.

emiliano, you're confusing the heck out of us. ToE is the Theory of Evolution. ToE and evolution are the same thing. You can't accept one and not the other. Would you answer my question? Do you accept the Theory of Evolution (ToE) or don't you? It's a simple yes or no question.

 

[painted wolf]

My position is that Humans have evolved, that today's humans are different from humans that lived hundred of thousand of years ago, that they are evolved human not apes that evolved into humans, I don't believe that human are evolved apes any more than I believe that apes evolved from monkeys and that they in turn evolved from Lemurs.

perhaps you can explain where the line between a human and an ape is? (in your opinion)

wa:do

 

[emiliano]

The madhair,
Well in simple term it means that some lemurs turned into monkeys, and monkeys into apes and apes into humans, right?
The lemur hand appeared human to some scientists, I wonder if there were any hunch men in the beginning (say several millions of years ago), if they were these experts would conclude that all humans were hunch men, or that human originate from hunchmen, right? I believe that the lemur that the expert looked at had several deformities and they saw them and wrote a colorful story.

I am not telling you that one descended from the other. I am telling you that both originated from a common ancestor.

Nope, as I told you modern humans are very different to those of old, but their ancestor were human and lemurs, monkeys and apes originated from ancestor that were of the kind. I don’t believe in mutations that result in a new kind of lemurs, monkeys, apes or humans. If take it farther back I don’t believe that this creatures had a potential to become bananas either. My DNA contains the blueprints for making me, and those blueprints are determined by how those four-letters are arranged within my genome.
That is a good word “blueprint” :yes:the blueprints for making me” :drool:Let see what a blueprint is.
blue·print (bl pr nt )
n.
1. A contact print of a drawing or other image rendered as white lines on a blue background, especially such a print of an architectural plan or technical drawing. Also called cyanotype.
2. A mechanical drawing produced by any of various similar photographic processes, such as one that creates blue or black lines on a white background.
3. A detailed plan of action. See Synonyms at plan.
This is even better!
4. A model or prototype.
plan(pln)
n.
1. A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective: a plan of attack.
2. A proposed or tentative project or course of action: had no plans for the evening.
3. A systematic arrangement of elements or important parts; a configuration or outline: a seating plan; the plan of a story.
4. A drawing or diagram made to scale showing the structure or arrangement of something.

Now plans/blueprints are made by someone they are evidence of a planner/designer and that is what ID is. Complex creatures such as humans are evidence of an intelligent designer, that is powerful enough to execute His plan, the Almighty that does things to makes us stand in awe of His magnificence and compels us to praise and worship Him.

 

[emiliano]

emiliano, you're confusing the heck out of us. ToE is the Theory of Evolution. ToE and evolution are the same thing. You can't accept one and not the other. Would you answer my question? Do you accept the Theory of Evolution (ToE) or don't you? It's a simple yes or no question.

I thought that it stand for "The Old Earth theory" :sorry1:

 

[emiliano]

perhaps you can explain where the line between a human and an ape is? (in your opinion)
wa:do

What line? Can’t you see? Humans are humans, apes are apes, have you visited the Zoo lately?

 

[themadhair]

Well in simple term it means that some lemurs turned into monkeys, and monkeys into apes and apes into humans, right?

When you say monkeys and apes I think you are referring to the extant apes and monkeys we have today. This is your mistake. You have to realise that the creatures you see today were not part of your ancestry and that is not the claim being made in evolutionary theory. The claim is that they share a common ancestor. Until you get this distinction then you are simply arguing against your own misconception.

The lemur hand appeared human to some scientists, I wonder if there were any hunch men in the beginning (say several millions of years ago), if they were these experts would conclude that all humans were hunch men, or that human originate from hunchmen, right?

It is not a lemur and if you knew anything about the skeletal structures that make lemurs a lemur you would realise this. The creature contains skeletal features that show its links to primates. The creature is the transition between the primate family and smaller rodent-like mammals.

Nope, as I told you modern humans are very different to those of old, but their ancestor were human and lemurs, monkeys and apes originated from ancestor that were of the kind.

Did you admit here that you accept common ancestry? Or is this simply your inability to remain coherent?

I don’t believe in mutations that result in a new kind of lemurs, monkeys, apes or humans.

Your children will be a new kind of human that will possess genetic mutations not present in you. On average the human child has around 175 new such genetic mutations. These differences add up over time. You would have to demonstrate some genetic barrier to these mutations adding up otherwise evolution is simply the natural result.

If take it farther back I don’t believe that this creatures had a potential to become bananas either.

The split between animals and plants was much further back than that. It makes no sense to talk about ‘potential’ in this context.

Now plans/blueprints are made by someone they are evidence of a planner/designer and that is what ID is.

Why? It was pretty clear the context that I used the word ‘blueprint’ in so feel free to butcher the metaphor.

Complex creatures such as humans are evidence of an intelligent designer, that is powerful enough to execute His plan, the Almighty that does things to makes us stand in awe of His magnificence and compels us to praise and worship Him.

Given that you are utterly clueless when it comes to how humans developed on this planet how can I trust you when you make any claims regarding their creation?

Your argument boils down to the following:

“I don’t understand biology so goddiddit”. Ignorance and proud of it.

What line? Can’t you see? Humans are humans, apes are apes, have you visited the Zoo lately?

Humans are still apes chum.

 

[Autodidact]

I thought that it stand for "The Old Earth theory" :sorry1:

Aha! The confusion begins to clear. So are you saying that you believe the earth is old, but do not accept the Theory of Evolution?

 

[Autodidact]

What line? Can’t you see? Humans are humans, apes are apes, have you visited the Zoo lately?

I take that as a "no?"