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Evolutionist contradict themselves and debunked-Story of Creation is Biblical Fact

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
The Bible claimed a specific beginning to the universe, which was scientifically validated beyond most reasonable doubt

The Bible mentions a fig tree too. Should we credit the Bible for predicting fig trees?

Every single religion has a creation story. The Bible is no different in this regard than literally thousands and thousand of other vague (at best) and absurd (at worst) tales of how the universe "got here."

atheist scientists proposed multiple variations of static, eternal, steady state models

LOL @ "atheist scientists" Do you know the scientists were atheists?

Static universe theories were largely thrown out (though not completely debunked) after observation of expansion of redshift/doppler shift, etc.. So what? That's what science does, it observes, postulates theories, observes again, refines theories based on new data, and flat out throws stuff out the window if contrary evidence is found.

You might as well criticize science for it's initial postulation that cigarettes were good for your health. The whole point of science is to keep searching for the real answer yet.

We don't have it. We don't have the full answer yet. Only religious people enjoy pretending that we do.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I don't know, and neither does anyone. We don't yet know the real exact truth behind the 'origin' of our universe, if there is one.

Science has it's current model, which as you point out has changed over time based on emerging evidence/observation. But Big Bang isn't a complete answer, and abiogenesis isn't either.

The main thing I reject about Creationism is that it pretends we have the answer. Scientists are still searching, observing, refining. Creationists say "what's the big mystery, God did it" and then they drop the mic and walk away as if we've been given an answer.



Just like Lemaitre, I have no desire to simply say the universe 'just is and always was' and close the book there

Just as Max PLanck, I have no compelling desire to claim a handful of superficial physical observations as an entire explanation of physical reality, and close the case at that

And as many creation scientists today, I recognize the satisfying simplicity of Darwinism, but once again, if the evidence points to something deeper, I have no problem following it where it leads.

There is an inherent desire in atheism, materialism, naturalism, to always declare a final simple God refuting solution to very complex questions, as quickly as possible. This has proven to be a great barrier to scientific progress time and again.

If we discard the pre-conclusions of naturalism, we remove those barriers to always looking further, deeper, never being satisfied with the simple explanation
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Every single religion has a creation story. The Bible is no different in this regard than literally thousands and thousand of other vague (at best) and absurd (at worst) tales of how the universe "got here."


LOL @ "atheist scientists" Do you know the scientists were atheists?

Yes, Hoyle was an outspoken atheist, he was the one who actually coined the term 'big bang' to mock the Priest Lemaitre's primeval atom theory.
Similarly Hawking explicitly touted his Big Cruch theory as 'making God redundant' by also circumventing a specific creation event

Cmon Demon this is 101 stuff here

That's what science does, it observes, postulates theories, observes again, refines theories based on new data, and flat out throws stuff out the window if contrary evidence is found.


Yes, science progresses, and in this case validated the Priests theory, not the atheists

Scientists do not always do so. Hoyle refused to accept the BB till his dying day.

This was science v atheism.

Must run will respond later, I appreciate the civil debate as always!
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
There is an inherent desire in atheism, materialism, naturalism, to always declare a final simple God refuting solution

This is because God is a lazy answer. Not really an answer at all, really, just a placeholder for an answer.

Where do we get if we say something called "God" created the universe. Do we know anything more than we knew about the nature of the universe by saying that? If not, as this answer really answered anything?

never being satisfied with the simple explanation

The simplest answer is "god did it" which seems to satisfy religious folks to no end.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Yes, Hoyle was an outspoken atheist, he was the one who actually coined the term 'big bang' to mock the Priest Lemaitre's primeval atom theory.
Similarly Hawking explicitly touted his Big Cruch theory as 'making God redundant' by also circumventing a specific creation event

Cmon Demon this is 101 stuff here

You seem to be very focused on two people and one or two very specific stories. I'm more apt to consider the entire universe of scientific exploration and consider the sum total of all that accumulated knowledge, and how we arrived at our current ideas.

Once upon a time we used leeches and drilled holes in people's heads as part of what we thought was "health care." I'm not willing to dismiss scientific discovery on the issue of human health and physiology, simply because I can look back in time and cherry pick a situation in which science temporarily got it wrong. Science is supposed to get it wrong. Ruling out possibilities is an extremely important step in eventually determining the truth or facts about a subject.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'd say there very much is a scientific movement, that has been around a long time,
No, there isn't. Some scientists do believe that, but it's not a scientific idea.
ID has always been part of science the method, the evidence, the discovery , 'nature is the executor of God's laws' as Galileo said. but it will never be accepted by naturalists, atheists, etc that often comprise the bulk of science the academic institution. By definition they will always interpret the evidence for their own conclusion, no matter what.
There is no way to put this in terms of science because it has to be proven, and not with just a coincidence, with hard evidence. You can't just say "it's complexed, it must have had a creator." It needs evidence, it needs to be able to make predictions, and those predictions have to be accurate. That's why there is credibility for the Big Bang, because we see things in the universe moving outwards, and why "Intelligent Design" isn't science because when you look at things it doesn't imply any sort of wondrous fine-tuning with the Earth and universe specially made for us. Putting us inside the asteroid belt is one such "unintelligent" things we do see, and why "Intelligent Design" fails to make any predictions, because if that we the case things just are not as we would predict and expect to find them under such a hypothesis.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
A child below a certain age does not recognize purpose, for them everything 'just is' as the universe 'just is' for atheists. They sleep in a bed because it's comfortable, they eat candy because it tastes good, it takes a little more critical thought to realize that these things could only exist by being made with that specific purpose in mind

Actually, the information I have obtained states exactly opposite: that preadolescent children seem to attribute a purpose to everything they encounter; as in, "the lake at the bottom of the mountain is there so that the animals can get a drink of water"; not, "Well, the lake was there because of the laws of physics and precipitation runoff gathered there because we know that water flows downhill".

Recent findings certainly suggest that children and adults
share strong similarities in their functional construal of arti-
facts and biological parts. Importantly, for example, both
preschoolers and adults constrain their reasoning about the
functions of artifacts and biological parts by considering
their origin. Thus, when children and adults are shown
novel body parts and artifacts that were designed for one
thing but intentionally or accidentally used for some other
activity, they agree that the object is ‘for’ the activity it was
originally designed (either by nature or intention) to perform

However, the similarities extend further than this. Con-
sistent with the proposal that, from an early age, children have
an adult-like sensitivity to different functional relations in the
artifact and biological realms, Keil finds that, when presented
with comparable features on a biological part and an artifact,
even three-year-olds consider the biological part as ‘self-serving’
but the parallel part on an artifact as ‘other serving’

. Thus,
young children know that while a barb on a rose is good for
the rose, a barb on barbed wire is good for someone else.
A final similarity is that, like adults, young children draw
on teleological assumptions about functional design in order
to constrain their inferences about unfamiliar living things.
In one study, three-, four- and five-year-old children were
taught behavioral properties of two animals and were
then
asked which behavioral property applied to an unfamiliar
third animal (a creature that shared overall similarity with one
of the training animals but was dissimilar to the other with
which it shared only a specific functional trait). The study
found that, from three years of age, children preferentially
attended to common functional features, rather than overall
similarity, when making inductions about the behavior of
the novel animal (D. Kelemen, D. Widdowson, T. Posner,
A.L. Brown and T. Dennis, unpublished) (see Fig. 2).
Taken together, these findings generate support for the
contention that children have an adult-like teleological sense
when reasoning about the biological and artifact domains.
However, the picture is, of course, more complicated than
this. Other studies have also found significant differences in
the teleological intuitions of children and adults – differences
that suggest caution when using the tendency of children to
engage in purpose-based thought as a basis for attributing
an autonomous biology.

http://www.bu.edu/cdl/files/2013/08/1999_Kelemen_FunctionsGoalsIntentions.pdf
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
This is because God is a lazy answer. Not really an answer at all, really, just a placeholder for an answer.

Where do we get if we say something called "God" created the universe. Do we know anything more than we knew about the nature of the universe by saying that? If not, as this answer really answered anything?



The simplest answer is "god did it" which seems to satisfy religious folks to no end.

I was raised a staunch atheist, and the answer 'chance did it' was simple and satisfying to me for a long time, I began to have nagging doubts really first when I got into astronomy.

but I think we are all curious here, capable of critical thought, looking for answers, truth, otherwise we wouldn't waste so much time here-

a lot of people don't really care about the question at all, so we have a common interest at least!
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
No, there isn't. Some scientists do believe that, but it's not a scientific idea.

There is no way to put this in terms of science because it has to be proven, and not with just a coincidence, with hard evidence. You can't just say "it's complexed, it must have had a creator." It needs evidence, it needs to be able to make predictions, and those predictions have to be accurate. That's why there is credibility for the Big Bang, because we see things in the universe moving outwards, and why "Intelligent Design" isn't science because when you look at things it doesn't imply any sort of wondrous fine-tuning with the Earth and universe specially made for us. Putting us inside the asteroid belt is one such "unintelligent" things we do see, and why "Intelligent Design" fails to make any predictions, because if that we the case things just are not as we would predict and expect to find them under such a hypothesis.

I hate to be repetitive, but I keep getting the same repetitive challenge, the same repetitive assertion that somehow science favors a naturalistic explanation for the universe

who correctly 'predicted' the greatest scientific discovery of all time, that the universe actually did have a beginning, a creation event? ID or naturalists, a priest or an atheist?

who predicted that classical physics did not refute God, that it was not immutable, that the laws were too simple to account for the wonders of physical reality?

who predicted that as primary beneficiaries of creation, we are alone, that when we turned highly sensitive instruments to the heavens, we would not detect a swarm of ETs, but would hear nothing but the 'great silence' all the way to the beginning of creation?

who predicted that the fossil record could actually be trusted, the gaps were real, not just artifacts to be filled with imaginary transitionals that never materialized?


Earthquakes, meteors, volcanoes used to be held up as 'bad design' until we learned the vital roles they play in life on Earth.

take away the 'unintelligent' asteroid belt, and we are not having this debate today

One of those 'unintelligent asteroids' just happened to be perfectly aimed and weighted to surgically remove the physically dominant species that had ruled Earth for eons, leaving us to inherit a planet with millions of years of conveniently stored energy, to develop technology, even explore the solar system and the universe.

All just yet more whopping coincidences? perhaps, I still think there are less improbable answers, if we simply resist the temptation to rule out ID
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Actually, the information I have obtained states exactly opposite: that preadolescent children seem to attribute a purpose to everything they encounter; as in, "the lake at the bottom of the mountain is there so that the animals can get a drink of water";

Well if it's a reservoir, the child would be quite correct. That is if we describe humans as animals

But 'based on the information I have obtained' from the preadolescent children in my own family, I highly doubt they'd recognize the subtle signs that the lake was artificial, if you can't actually see the dam..

Okay stretching the analogy! but the point is, children, and adults, can make incorrect assumptions either way, mistake artificial objects as natural and vice versa, whether or not their assumptions are fallacious, depends on the nature of the object.

Is the universe a lake or a reservoir? we don't know, we're all taking our best guesses here!
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
I was raised a staunch atheist, and the answer 'chance did it'

Is this really true? I only ask because a lot of people have tried to tell me they were raised atheist, and then project some wacky idea that I've never heard a single atheist propose.

As it turns out, most of these folks were raised in a religion, had a period where they rejected their faith, and then went back.

Because no atheist I've ever known, and certainly no scientists, would portray our current theories on the ideas of the universe as "chance did it."
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Is this really true? I only ask because a lot of people have tried to tell me they were raised atheist, and then project some wacky idea that I've never heard a single atheist propose.

As it turns out, most of these folks were raised in a religion, had a period where they rejected their faith, and then went back.

Because no atheist I've ever known, and certainly no scientists, would portray our current theories on the ideas of the universe as "chance did it."

I think it's fair to say that one of my parents was agnostic atheist and the other pretty much anti theist, and I probably became even more passionately atheist than them for most of my adult life. To the point that I still don't tell them I changed my mind, I know how I used to feel about my current beliefs, I got irritated with people for them, so I don't want to do that to them at their age, that's what this place is for!

I guess all I can prove is that my personal opinion is completely unreliable :)

But what about you, what beliefs were you raised with? if you changed, why? Do you think it impossible to ever change now?
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
But what about you, what beliefs were you raised with? if you changed, why? Do you think it impossible to ever change now?

Raised Catholic, mother very devout, dad not so much. I think from a very, very early age I didn't really believe most of what they were telling me. It started with stuff like them insisting that transubstantiation was an actual, physical transformation and that the wine actually turned to blood. Any idiot knows that's not true, yet here were my parents and all the adult figures in my life insisting it was?

I have to run Threepster. I'll fill you in on more details tomorrow if you're still interested. Have a good night!
 

McBell

Unbound
I was raised a staunch atheist, and the answer 'chance did it' was simple and satisfying to me for a long time, I began to have nagging doubts really first when I got into astronomy.
The problem here is that the only ones claiming "chance did it" are those like yourself who want a strawman to beat on.

but I think we are all curious here, capable of critical thought, looking for answers, truth, otherwise we wouldn't waste so much time here-
I agree there are those who ar elooking for answers.
Then there are those like you who claim to already have the answers and get upset when the non-choir members ask for something more than wishful thinking.

a lot of people don't really care about the question at all, so we have a common interest at least!
And a lot of people want actual answers, not oversimplified place holders.
 

McBell

Unbound
who correctly 'predicted' the greatest scientific discovery of all time, that the universe actually did have a beginning, a creation event? ID or naturalists, a priest or an atheist?
No one.
Because there is no objective empirical evidence that even suggests creation....

Nice try though.

who predicted that classical physics did not refute God, that it was not immutable, that the laws were too simple to account for the wonders of physical reality?

who predicted that as primary beneficiaries of creation, we are alone, that when we turned highly sensitive instruments to the heavens, we would not detect a swarm of ETs, but would hear nothing but the 'great silence' all the way to the beginning of creation?

who predicted that the fossil record could actually be trusted, the gaps were real, not just artifacts to be filled with imaginary transitionals that never materialized?


Earthquakes, meteors, volcanoes used to be held up as 'bad design' until we learned the vital roles they play in life on Earth.

take away the 'unintelligent' asteroid belt, and we are not having this debate today

One of those 'unintelligent asteroids' just happened to be perfectly aimed and weighted to surgically remove the physically dominant species that had ruled Earth for eons, leaving us to inherit a planet with millions of years of conveniently stored energy, to develop technology, even explore the solar system and the universe.

All just yet more whopping coincidences? perhaps, I still think there are less improbable answers, if we simply resist the temptation to rule out ID
*yawn*
please wake me when the sermon is over....
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
who correctly 'predicted' the greatest scientific discovery of all time, that the universe actually did have a beginning, a creation event? ID or naturalists, a priest or an atheist?
That's been something people have been saying for awhile. Perhaps maybe even before our species was around.
who predicted that classical physics did not refute God, that it was not immutable, that the laws were too simple to account for the wonders of physical reality?
That makes no sense, and if the laws of nature are so "too simple" then why haven't we figured out things such as gravity?
who predicted that as primary beneficiaries of creation, we are alone, that when we turned highly sensitive instruments to the heavens, we would not detect a swarm of ETs, but would hear nothing but the 'great silence' all the way to the beginning of creation?
Who says we are the beneficiaries of creation? What exactly is this creation? You will need to define and provide evidence. And, we actually have received a radio transmission, although it's origin is unknown. And it's very likely we are going about it the wrong way, because we have a few different ways of transmit communications, so it may just be we are doing something comparable to listening for an AM frequency when we need to be looking for FM frequency.
who predicted that the fossil record could actually be trusted, the gaps were real, not just artifacts to be filled with imaginary transitionals that never materialized?
You clearly don't understand how these predictions work. When you observe something, you make a hypothesis, and you test it. If the hypothesis is true, it will be able to predict future outcomes of a given event. There is no way to test for a creator, nor any future events to predict.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Well if it's a reservoir, the child would be quite correct. That is if we describe humans as animals

Humans are animals and you are sidestepping the entire point of my post. The point of my post is that you claimed:

A child below a certain age does not recognize purpose, for them everything 'just is' as the universe 'just is' for atheists. They sleep in a bed because it's comfortable, they eat candy because it tastes good, it takes a little more critical thought to realize that these things could only exist by being made with that specific purpose in mind

I claimed:

couldn't disagree with this more. I think the notion that if something exists, it has purpose; the notion that if a thing existed that it must have been created by an intelligent being for a specific purpose; I see this is childish thinking.

... then backed it up with some form of evidence.

so, who is "right" or who was "wrong" in determining if the "lake" (not reservoir; you're changing the object AND the subject of the discussion) exists for a purpose or out of random chance. What is important is that it appears that neither of us are completely correct; that teleological thinking exists in both adults AND children.

But 'based on the information I have obtained' from the preadolescent children in my own family, I highly doubt they'd recognize the subtle signs that the lake was artificial, if you can't actually see the dam..

You're missing the whole point. The point is that, according to the data I linked and posted:

A child below a certain age does not recognize purpose, for them everything 'just is' as the universe 'just is' for atheists. They sleep in a bed because it's comfortable, they eat candy because it tastes good, it takes a little more critical thought to realize that these things could only exist by being made with that specific purpose in mind

... is totally incorrect.

Is the universe a lake or a reservoir? we don't know, we're all taking our best guesses here!

The difference is, the reservoir advocates are basing their "guess" on subjective responses, replete with teleological thinking and agenticity hard at work; and the "lake" advocates are basing their guesses on hard, objective evidence, taking due care to not be influenced by known logic errors.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
it takes a little more critical thought to realize that these things could only exist by being made with that specific purpose in mind

And actually ... it takes a little more critical thought to exceed teleological presuppositions and discern that "things could only exist by being made with that specific purpose in mind" is simply not conducive to reality nor reflective of the evidence.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Just like Lemaitre, I have no desire to simply say the universe 'just is and always was' and close the book there

Just as Max PLanck, I have no compelling desire to claim a handful of superficial physical observations as an entire explanation of physical reality, and close the case at that

And as many creation scientists today, I recognize the satisfying simplicity of Darwinism, but once again, if the evidence points to something deeper, I have no problem following it where it leads.

There is an inherent desire in atheism, materialism, naturalism, to always declare a final simple God refuting solution to very complex questions, as quickly as possible. This has proven to be a great barrier to scientific progress time and again.

If we discard the pre-conclusions of naturalism, we remove those barriers to always looking further, deeper, never being satisfied with the simple explanation
Sorry to butt in here, but as an atheist, I wanted to reply to this.

I can't speak for all atheists, but I look at it this way. I don't see any reason to attribute the creation of the universe to a supernatural deity that hasn't even been shown to exist in the first place. I don't see how invoking an even bigger mystery as an explanation actually gets us anywhere in explaining anything. I don't understand why the default position would be to invoke an invisible anthropomorphic creator as an explanation for everything we see in the universe. I think the default position should be that we don't know, pending further investigation, and go from there and go out and learn how things work. And if you want to assert that some god put it all together, then I think you should have to first demonstrate that such a god exists.
 
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