Ex Christians

[tumbleweed41]

No the man doesn't have to prove he's a virgin. However read the whole chapter. You'll see that men are punished too.(in fact if he rapes a woman pledged to a man then he's stoned)

This 'women as personal property' mentality was another of the dogmas I found difficult to reconcile.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No the man doesn't have to prove he's a virgin. However read the whole chapter. You'll see that men are punished too.(in fact if he rapes a woman pledged to a man then he's stoned)

Can you explain why the man doesn't have to prove he's a virgin?

 

[CMike]

Judaism and the death penalty

Ask the Rabbi

 

[Alceste]

I already made it in a previous post. The standard for the death penality was so high that it made it virturally impossible to carry out.

Remember that we are talking about Judaism. These passages are jewish scriptures meant for jews.



The Talmud said that a jewish court that executed someone in 70 years was considered an evil court.


The Death Penalty in Jewish Tradition - My Jewish Learning

Thanks for providing the additional context. I am only addressing the claim that the Bible is the "only" valid source of moral guidance here though, so I am limiting myself to what is actually written in it. I personally don't think it is a faithful or complete depiction of Jewish culture orcustoms, but the only way to discuss philosophy with a fundamentalist is to treat their bible stories as hypothetically true.

it is ruled that two witnesses
are required to testify not only that they witnessed the act for which the criminal has been charged

but that they had warned him beforehand that if he carried out the act he would be executed,

and he had to accept the warning,

stating his willingness to commit the act despite his awareness of its consequences.

The criminal's own confession is not accepted as evidence.

Moreover, circumstantial evidence is not admitted.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Debater Slayer]

How does one prove a man isn't a virgin on his wedding night?

That's too easy. A maximum-level World of Warcraft account, along with the ability to fluently speak Klingon, should do very well.

(I'm actually a gamer myself, so I'm not dissing gamers at all here... just in case. )

 

[Jacksnyte]

I don't know, but you shouldn't be saying the passage says the girl has to produce bloody sheets or she does. She was being stoned because she wasn't a virgin.

What's the passage in the Bible of this incident?

Actually, the passage is about adultery, but here it is:

John 7:53-8:11 in the Authorized Version:

7:53 And every man went unto his own house.
8:1 ¶ Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's too easy. A maximum-level World of Warcraft account, along with the ability to fluently speak Klingon, should do very well.

(I'm actually a gamer myself, so I'm not dissing gamers at all here... just in case. )

Well, then....let's make it mandatory that ALL men should be gamers at that level before they're married. I mean, it's only fair, ya know?

 

[CMike]

Thanks for providing the additional context. I am only addressing the claim that the Bible is the "only" valid source of moral guidance here though, so I am limiting myself to what is actually written in it. I personally don't think it is a faithful or complete depiction of Jewish culture orcustoms, but the only way to discuss philosophy with a fundamentalist is to treat their bible stories as hypothetically true.

[/QUOTE]

What story?

 

[Father Heathen]

You have to be devoid of your humanity to defend or hold such utterly repulsive views.

 

[CMike]

You have to be devoid of your humanity to defend or hold such utterly repulsive views.

Who are you talking to?

 

[CMike]

The virgin thing

Torah.org - The Judaism Site

 

[Jacksnyte]

I wasn't avoiding the question. I was just saying if God had given a law then I'd obey it. Again it's the choice of the women to go out and disobey the law and when she does disobey she's accepting the consequence.

No


I understand, people think their own morality is better than God's. However what makes my sense of morality better than yours. If I believe killing is wrong and you don't, which of us is correct?

Ah, but you have admitted that you don't believe killing is wrong as long as the Bible tells you it is ok, as long as they broke a rule, nevermind that their "crime" harmed no-one in any way, they must die!!! Sounds pretty sick to me!

 

[CMike]

More elaborate Jewish view on virginity

Jewish Values Online - What does Judaism say about pre-marital sex?

 

[CMike]

Ah, but you have admitted that you don't believe killing is wrong as long as the Bible tells you it is ok, as long as they broke a rule, nevermind that their "crime" harmed no-one in any way, they must die!!! Sounds pretty sick to me!

Your premise is wrong.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Your premise is wrong.

I was replying to a post Vadergirl made earlier. Not sure what premise you mean.

 

[CMike]

I was replying to a post Vadergirl made earlier. Not sure what premise you mean.

That the woman was supposed to be executed.

 

[Jacksnyte]

She was caught in the act of a crime that prescribes stoning to death as the punishment...

 

[Tarheeler]

What's frustrating is that it's the christian point of view regarding judaism.

I agree, but, as you can see, it doesn't matter.

 

[Alceste]

The virgin thing

Torah.org - The Judaism Site

CMike, we are dealing with Christian apologetics at this time, not Jewish apologetics. The Bible verse in question is Deuteronomy 13-20. This is what Vadergirl believes is "moral":


13 `When a man taketh a wife, and hath gone in unto her, and hated her,
14 and laid against her actions of words, and brought out against her an evil name, and said, This woman I have taken, and I draw near unto her, and I have not found in her tokens of virginity:
15 `Then hath the father of the damsel -- and her mother -- taken and brought out the tokens of virginity of the damsel unto the elders of the city in the gate,
16 and the father of the damsel hath said unto the elders, My daughter I have given to this man for a wife, and he doth hate her;
17 and lo, he hath laid actions of words, saying, I have not found to thy daughter tokens of virginity -- and these [are] the tokens of the virginity of my daughter! and they have spread out the garment before the elders of the city.
18 `And the elders of that city have taken the man, and chastise him,
19 and fined him a hundred silverlings, and given to the father of the damsel, because he hath brought out an evil name on a virgin of Israel, and she is to him for a wife, he is not able to send her away all his days.
20 `And if this thing hath been truth -- tokens of virginity have not been found for the damsel --
21 then they have brought out the damsel unto the opening of her father's house, and stoned her have the men of her city with stones, and she hath died, for she hath done folly in Israel, to go a-whoring [in] her father's house; and thou hast put away the evil thing out of thy midst.

Do you agree with the rest of us that the process described above is morally wrong? Treat it as a hypothetical, since the question is whether or not the Bible can be one's primary or only source of moral guidance, not whether the Isrealites actually did this, or did it very often.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Still makes women less than men.

Define less, they weren't allowed to rule the church or be in chareg in a marriage. But they could have authority in business, with servants, etc

Yes, you've said that he wants it, but you have yet to explain why. Why would there be any harm? Sweden hasn't imploded since we legalized gay marriage.

You live in Sweden? Well marriage is suppsoe to represent Christ's love for the church(Ephesians 5) I thought Sweden wasn't a very moral country?

Nope, I don't still believe in those. I read the Bible and it didn't make sense to me. It was not an active decision, just like I never made an active decision that I would dislike raw onions.

But you still made a choice. You chose to not believe in christianity becasue it didn't make since to you. As to the food analogy, you can train your taste buds to enjoy something. When I was younger I HATED milk, but now I love it and drink it everyday Do you not believe a human being can make choices?

It's the very definition of unfair. They're at a disadvantage, and that's unfair.

Most everyone will face persecution sometime during their life. However if you love someone enough it won't matter. There's kids in the west who grow up in homes where God's hated or where there peers will mock them for believing in God.

I would forgive them. Why should I be more forgiving than God?

So because God punishes sin and you woudln't you think you're more forgiving then him. You don't even seem to mind some sins. Sin isn't the smae thing to you as it is to God. It's easy to forgive people when youd on't even beleive they did anything that wrong in the first place.

Psa 9:17 uses the word sheol, so it simply says that the dead will go back to being dead, not to be tortured for all eternity. it never claims that they're tortured for all eternity.

Here you go Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

Of course it would bother me, but I wouldn't punish them for it. It's like torturing and murdering people because they don't share your opinion, and that's just cruel.

It's not God's "opinion" that sin is bad. His very being is opposed to it.

I can figure out several ways that show boundless love that doesn't involve torturing my children..

Okay

I don't believe that eternal torture for not 100, not 1000, not 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years, but all of eternity, is a reasonable punishment for stealing a stick of gum.

You and God don't have the same view about sin.

Because you're reading everything literally, when many things are understood from the scriptural context and the historical context to be metaphorical or allegorical in nature

.
I read passages as literal which are intended to be taken literally. Shoudl I take the verse, "Jesus wept" to be metaphorical. No of course not