Ex Christians

[Shermana]

Hmmm, if I may say so, it sounds like you're letting the "representatives" falsely misrepresent him, which is another reason I hate western "Christianity" so much. If I let the representatives do the representing for Christianity and Judaism as well, then I'd be Atheist.

As for "Middle man", I don't see why that's a problem depending on the Theological views of what it means to be "Messiah".

Most "Christians" I believe are in for a hot, firy surprise when they die. Even many "Messianic Jews". I truly wish these mainstreamers didn't represent the totality.

Taken from an historical Nazarene non-gentile perspective, it's not too far removed from Qairite, even Right-Reform. (I.e. "Traditionalist reform, non-Rabbinical Torah-ism).

If I may ask, what were these "back dues" for exactly? Were they actually calculating and charging his tithe for him? If so, I will wish them bankruptcy if you'd like. Such audacity makes me angry enough to want them to burn in hell. Then again, I should wish bankruptcy on every single "Christian" institution and pastor who runs them.

 

[Jacksnyte]

The idea that Jesus did not exist is an extreme fringe minority even among Secular scholars. This is a great example of the desperate logic the Rabbinicists will resort to. Not too far off from Zeitgeist. Does the article mention that even the Talmud acknowledges his existence (in the most hating sort of way).

Regardless, at the time, they seemed to make a good point, primarily regarding the existence of Nazareth prior to Jesus, among other things

 

[Rakhel]

Jesus doesn't fit into my theology. That is all there is to it.
As I said originally, I couldn't wrap my head around Jesus being god. During my journey, I realized I couldn't accept him as "The Promised Messiah" or even as my messiah.

 

[jasonwill2]

Also i found Satanism and Satan rules all

go satan!

edit: I acutally meant "rules all" as in "is awesome"

 

[Shermana]

Also i found Satanism and Satan rules all

go satan!

Only those who are still slaves to the world. Biblically speaking.

But he is nonetheless "The god of this age".

 

[jasonwill2]

Only those who are still slaves to the world. Biblically speaking.

But he is nonetheless "The god of this age".

I acutally meant "rules all" as in "is awesome"

 

[Shermana]

I acutally meant "rules all" as in "is awesome"

I would agree that his terrifying power and relentless pursuit of causing the paths of destruction would be considered "awesome" in its true definition. Most "Christians" would get streamrolled by him if they actually provoked him.

 

[jasonwill2]

I would agree that his terrifying power and relentless pursuit of causing the paths of destruction would be considered "awesome" in its true definition. Most "Christians" would get streamrolled by him if they actually provoked him.

what relentless pursuit of paths of destruction?

dunno what Satan your talking about but my satan creates as much as he destroys as to cancel out each other

actually destruction and creation are the same force in different directions relative to the thing at hand: change

WHenever my ego is destroyed in a ritual its remade in a new image as part of it... to recreate you must destroy certain parts

 

[Vadergirl123]

So what is the "token" of virginity that the bride's family must produce to save her life? I admit i am speculating, but I've yet to hear any other reasonable interpretation.

The Bible doesn't specifically say

 

[Vadergirl123]

Can you explain why the man doesn't have to prove he's a virgin?

No, the Bible doesn't say why he didn't have to.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Ah, but you have admitted that you don't believe killing is wrong as long as the Bible tells you it is ok, as long as they broke a rule, nevermind that their "crime" harmed no-one in any way, they must die!!! Sounds pretty sick to me!

I said I believe murder is wrong. God gave them the rules and he gave punishments for breaking them. It was their choice to break the rules, and by doing so they accept the consequences.
You didn't answer my question of what makes someone's sense of morality better than someone elses?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I said I believe murder is wrong. God gave them the rules and he gave punishments for breaking them. It was their choice to break the rules, and by doing so they accept the consequences.

Okay then, if I put a gun to your head and say "if you try and speak, I'll kill you", is it perfectly justified for me to carry-out my threat on the basis that you broke the "rule" I made in spite of hearing about the consequences?

 

[Vadergirl123]

Jacksnyte provided it. It's one of the most well known Bible stories there are, the source of the widely used quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Have you really never come across it before? :thud:

John 8 KJV

Yes I've read it many times, but I wanted to make sure we were thinking of the same passage.
First off Jesus didn't "interfere." The pharisees brought the women to him(vs 3) then when they ASKED HIM what to do about her, he said, "Let any of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
He wasn't saying not to do the law, Jesus said whoever has no sin, throw the first stone, and there were no takers.

 

[Vadergirl123]

It's amazing, really. What do people do in fundamentalist churches if not actually READ the book they believe to be the literally true, inspired word of their God and the only valid basis for all human morality?

My church does do that. However there are churches out there that compromise God's word.

 

[Vadergirl123]

What do people do in fundamentalist churches if not actually READ the book they believe to be the literally true, inspired word of their God and the only valid basis for all human morality?

What do you believe should be the basis for human morality?

 

[Vadergirl123]

This response to my defense of human life is a bit ironic
considering your repeated statements about the bible being
against murder. So how do you justify murdering people
over the opinion that God says sex is wrong outside of
marriage (marriage being a ceremony which, by the way,
contains a ritual in which the couple publicly ignores Jesus'
command to not make any vows whatsoever)?
-

God tells us not to murder yes. I think we're have different views on what murder is, I'm defining murder as, "premediated, unlawful taking of a life." What are you defining it as?
Jesus doesn't say to not take vows. He says not to swear.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Also what is your basis for suicide being murder? How can I murder myself? do I not have the right to do to my body whatever I want?

The Bible views suicide as self-murder. Since you're not a christian, then yeah you can do whatever you want to your body.

The Bible doesn't say anything about suicide, much less call it murder.

You, yourself, talked about some of the suicidal instances in the Bible, and again the Bible stories depict suicide as murder.

Also "who came up with it" about Satanism... I can't answer that because I can't know what you mean; it's not derived from a single source (my beliefs anyway). Also I can't answer that even generally because many Satanists believe wildly different things

Ah okay

 

[Vadergirl123]

People got married thousands of years before Jesus came. It's definitely not a Christian thing, so Christian morals have no place in marriage. Why wouldn't Sweden be moral?

Yes they did, and I said marriage represents Christ's love for the church, and if you read Ephesians 5 you'll see that this idea was a, "mystery(something not yet known to man). Christain morals have alot of place in marriage. I thought Sweeden had had a huge crime increase recently?

I didn't choose not to believe in Christianity, I just stopped believing. I didn't just say "you know what, I'm going to stop believing in God".

You chose to stop believing because you thought the Bible didn't make sense with what you believe about life.

Yes, you're really confirming my statement here. However, you cannot really choose what you believe.

But I CHOSE to do that, and now I like milk alot. Everyone choses what they believe.

I believe stealing is wrong, but I don't think the punishment should be eternal. If I can forgive sins, why cannot God?

God does forgive sins, and stealing doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does to God. Again you're not God why do you keep comparing yourself to him?

It's cheap to post a link instead of explaining, but I'll have a go at it:

I was lazy haha and besides the link makes some good points and does explain everything.

1. Death is the punishment for sins (Romans 6:23) and death is eternal. Therefore, death is the punishment.

Yes eternal separation from God is the punishment not Dying. Everyone(christains/non-christains) dies

2. Eternal death is just being dead for all eternity.

Where do you get that from the link/the Bible?

3.What happens to a man, when he is thrown into fire? Does he burn forever, or does he perish in the flames?

Did you even read over the link, if it's eternal then he'll burn forever.

4. The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

That verse wasn't even in the link, and you need to read it in it's entire context

5. While hell is mentioned several times in the Bible, it is only spoken of as sheol and gehenna (and their greek counterparts), neither of which is hell according to Judaism.

Again okay that's interesting

6. If the Bible is 100% literal, then the fires of gehenna would still burn today, which they do not. Thus we can tell that Jesus either was ignorant of this or he spoke metaphorically about hell.

No, someparts of the Bible shoudln't be taken literally. Was he speaking in parables?

7. Both body and soul are destroyed in hell, not eternally punished (Matthew 10:28).

That verse also wasn't in the link, and again pleas read the entire context.

The only verse I found that directly refers to a hell that is torture in flames (for humans, that is) is Luke 16:23-24.Unless you're hinting that Christians believed in the hades of greek mythology this hades cannot be considered eternal punishment.

That passage does indeed talk about hell and torture. However why do you think the place was the greek mythological hades? The place described doesn't even describe hades??? And also Abraham woudln't be in Hades.

It would be nice if you could find the individual passages, because then we could discuss them one by one and see whether or not they support eternal torture in flames.

So you believe the Bible talks about eternal torture then? Now you justwant to know if there's flames?

I just have a question about hell. Did Jesus open it when he came to Earth or was it there all along? If it's the second, then why didn't God tell people about it before Jesus came?

Most likely there all along, since sin's been in existence. Hell is refered to in the O.T. (Daniel 12:2) and again Psa. 19:& where David talks about the sorrows of hell.

They had less power in total than men, as they weren't allowed to have any say in church nor marriage.

Yes I agree with you, but that doesn't make them "less" they could speak in marriage. In I Peter it talks about a woman influencing her husband. And tey could be very involved in the church.

People got married thousands of years before Jesus came. It's definitely not a Christian thing, so Christian morals have no place in marriage. Why wouldn't Sweden be moral?

Yes they did, and I said marriage represents Christ's love for the church, and if you read Ephesians 5 you'll see that this idea was a, "mystery(something not yet known to man). Christain morals have alot of place in marriage. I thought Sweeden had a huge crime increase recently?

I didn't choose not to believe in Christianity, I just stopped believing. I didn't just say "you know what, I'm going to stop believing in God".

You chose to stop believing because you thought the Bible didn't make sense with what you believe about life.

Yes, you're really confirming my statement here. You can train your tastebuds, it's the culinary version of indoctrination. Whether or not free will exists can be debated. However, you cannot really choose what you believe.

But I CHOSE to do that, and now I like milk alot. Everyone choses what they believe.

Doesn't change the fact that it's unfair. Most people wont face persecution.

Well if they don't want to face it then they don't have to chose to become a christain. I never said the christain life was easy.

I believe stealing is wrong, but I don't think the punishment should be eternal. If I can forgive sins, why cannot God?

God does forgive sins, and stealing doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does to God. Again you're not God whyd o you keep comparing yrouself to him?

It's cheap to post a link instead of explaining, but I'll have a go at it:

I was lazy haha and besides the link makes some good points and does explain everything.

1. Death is the punishment for sins (Romans 6:23) and death is eternal. Therefore, death is the punishment.

Yes eternal separation from God is the punishment. Dying isn't the punishment. Everyone(christains/non-christains) dies

2. Eternal death is just being dead for all eternity.

Where do you get that from the link/the Bible?

3.What happens to a man, when he is thrown into fire? Does he burn forever, or does he perish in the flames?

Did you even read over the link, if it's eternal then he'll burn forever.

4. The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

That verse wasn't even in the link, and you need to read it in it's entire context

5. While hell is mentioned several times in the Bible, it is only spoken of as sheol and gehenna (and their greek counterparts), neither of which is hell according to Judaism.

Again okay that's interesting

6. If the Bible is 100% literal, then the fires of gehenna would still burn today, which they do not. Thus we can tell that Jesus either was ignorant of this or he spoke metaphorically about hell.

No, someparts of the Bible shoudln't be taken literally. Was he speaking in parables?

7. Both body and soul are destroyed in hell, not eternally punished (Matthew 10:28).
That verse also wasn't in the link, and again pleas read the entire context.

The only verse I found that directly refers to a hell that is torture in flames (for humans, that is) is Luke 16:23-24. However, this is in an allegorical story and the word used is hades, which was not understood as eternal torture, but rather the greek word for sheol. Unless you're hinting that Christians believed in the hades of greek mythology this hades cannot be considered eternal punishment. It stands directly against Jewish mythology and the common usage of the word. Add to that the allegorical nature of the story.

That passage does indeed tak about hell and torture. However why do you think the place was the greek mythological hades? The place described doesn't even describe hades??? And also Abraham woudln't be in Hades.

It would be nice if you could find the individual passages, because then we could discuss them one by one and see whether or not they support eternal torture in flames.

So you believe the Bible talks about eternal torture then? Now you just want to know if there's flames?

So you think eternal torture is a fair punishment for stealing a stick of gum?

To me it doesn't sound very fair, but sin doesn't bother me the way it does God. Again why do you keep comparing me to him?

That's not exactly a good example of a part that should be read metaphorically. Sure, it's much easier to read all of the Bible literally, but it's probably not the correct way when you consider the historical context and the different natures of the different books of the Bible. Some are to be considered literal, while others definitely aren't.

I don't read the whole Bible literally, but the parts that are intended to be read literally I read literally

 

[Vadergirl123]

They had less power in total than men, as they weren't allowed to have any say in church nor marriage.

Having less power doesn't mean the women had no say in marriage or the church.

Doesn't change the fact that it's unfair. Most people wont face persecution.

I didn't say the christain life was easy. A person doesn't have to chose to be a christain.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Okay then, if I put a gun to your head and say "if you try and speak, I'll kill you", is it perfectly justified for me to carry-out my threat on the basis that you broke the "rule" I made in spite of hearing about the consequences?

Why would I have to follow any rule you made? You have no authority over me. You can shoot me, but it woudln't be justified.(it would actually be weird since you don't even know me haha)