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Ex Christians

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Psalm 9:17 says that the wicked will return to sheol, meaning that they've been there once before.
What translation are you using? Mine says "go down" not return.
The JPS offers ...
Let the wicked be in Sheol, ...
while noting: "Others "return to."

Rabbi Segal, whose work I appreciate, renders the verse:
18. Let the wicked turn back to Sheol, all the nations who forget God!
While Alter writes:
The wicked will turn back to Sheol, ...
commenting: "This stands in contrast to the fate of the speaker, who has been raised from the gates of death. The form of the Hebrew l'she'ola is anomalous, because it incorporates both the preposition 'to' at the beginning and the directional suffix that means 'to' at the end."

The psalms are beautiful and oft times intriguing human poetic expression. Pretending them to be more than that demeans the genre and its authors.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
In Jesus time they'd already had greek inlfuences.

I know. Looking at it from a historical perspective, the hellenistic influence is a big cause for what spread a wider belief in hell. It would be out of place for the Jewish Messiah to add a concept of afterlife that was never a part of Judaism.

It's talking about a prohecy and hell is implied when you look at the rest of the Bible. And contempt could be like "torture"
Only when you look at the new testament. Contempt is nothing like eternal torture.

Why do you believe periods of time metaphorical?
Because if they aren't then the Bible is just plain wrong. For many of the prophecies to be correct, the times had to be metaphorical, and thus they were interpreted as such (a week meaning seven years instead of a week, etc).

Dang it. I meant Psa. 9, sorry
Ok! But the Psalms are still poetic works.

The jews knew sin was wrong and that's why they made sacrifices to God. I don't know too much about Judaisim, I can look more into it though.
Even though many Jews reject the Christian concept of sin, yes, they believe that breaking the laws of God is wrong. There is still nothing implying that the punishment for breaking the laws of God is eternal torture. You definitely should look into it, as it is the foundation of your religion!

A queen would be in charge of some male servants
And a king would also be in charge of male servants. So the question still stands: Is there an area where a woman was allowed power, but a man was not?

It's NOT easier/harder for them to accpet Christ, but it can be easier/harder for someone to live for Christ. So in that sense I guess you could say it's unfair.
It is easier/harder to accept Christ. If you're brought up to believe in something, you're more likely to believe that. If the evidence was clear and it was just as easy for someone who was brought up to not believe in God to accept Jesus, then a huge majority of all people would be Christians. You must try to look at it through other people's perspective.

Because sin also doesn't bother me in the same way. For example if I saw a boy break a glass it woudln't bother me in the same way it does a women who's now a widow and that glass belonged to her husband. I'm not God and I don't view sin the same way he does, therefore it's not fair for me to have the same sense of punishment for it that he does.
So you don't share the same morals as God? We should be able to make decisions of morality for ourselves. If we believe that what God is doing is immoral, then we should be able to express that belief. Authority is never a source of superior morals. We must acknowledge that God's morals are just as subjective as ours.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Exactly what it says, you love people, or show Christ's love to them.

so then you can't show me an example...

the reason i ask for an example is because "love" is a subjective word and therefore if you can clarify what you mean by "christ's love" then i'll know what you mean.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
so why do you continue to? since your are comparing yourself to them in regards to how they base their belief?
Who's they? If you mean other people then not all of them base their beliefs on the Bible.

other people who call themselves christians. why would i take your word over theirs if they too claim to base their belief on the bible, since that is where the idea of jesus came from ?
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
If you read the entire passage you'll see that she's being stoned because she had been having other sexual relationships within her father's house.

no it doesn't say that at all. the point is... he has a way out if she doesn't bleed AFTER they have sex....or he's in trouble for slander if her parents can produce the proof that she was a virgin...

you do know that women do not always bleed. guess your god didn't know that. i find that to be very telling.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
My bad, I thought you didn't like my answer

only intellectually dishonest comments.

then it's based on faith
and i base my morality on what i think is right...
which is pretty much what you are doing...



I'm not ducking, and of course I know there are people out there who aren't beleivers and have loved ones. I'm saying I love God very much and want to spend eternity with him.(think of God as a "loved one" of mine)
Not ignore it, I would feel terrible, but I'd be in heaven with a God I love.

if you would feel terrible, then heaven would cease to be heaven.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
The Bible doesn't need to be understood subjectively.

the bible IS understood subjectively.
since your god is mute and depends on 3rd party revelation, there is no wonder why there are so many denominations

I don't have a subjective understanding of the Bible. I don't look at a Bible verse/passage and if it goes against my opinion or feelings decide that the passage coudln't have meant what it says.

that isn't the subjective understanding i'm talking about. the subjective understanding is that you take it as the word of god based on hearsay, faith, and wishful thinking not if you agree or disagree with what it says.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
No most of them have no problem saying they don't think the Bible's the absolute authority. It's more about feelings and God making us happy.

ah...so then it is about comparing yourself to others.
what makes you feel like a christian is basing your subjective faith on a book that cannot be verified as the word of god, other than what it says about itself and what makes them non christians is that they go by their own subjective faith on feelings

lt's still based on personal feelings, isn't it?
 
God can't stand sin. Destroy sin?? We're all sinners and have all sinned. Do you want God to destroy every human being????
Personally, I see a difference between sin and the vessel in
which it is said to reside. God can destroy sin without also
taking out the sinner along with it. In fact, it's said that sin
has already been conquered through Christ.


I've stated several times throughout you've been very sweet.
Amen. Back when I was a Christian, I don't think I ever
demonstrated such patience this far into an online debate as
Vadergirl has. I think it's great!

Overall, it seems that everyone has pretty much kept their
cool in this thread; it's refreshing to see! :yes:



-
 

Jacksnyte

Reverend
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There's alot of people who interpret the Bible like I do and who have the same view on christianity as I do. However are you saying my belief about Christaity is wrong because the majority of people you know about don't have the same view?

No, I'm saying your christianity is yours, theirs is theirs, both based on the Bible, but arriving at different conclusions, so by continually saying "I base mine on the Bible", you aren't really telling us much. There are many denominations, all of which consider themselves "bible-based", yet their beliefs differ.



Haha I don't "swallow whole indoctrination." I've already said I enjoy reaing and learning more about other religions, And I would read books about them written by people of the same faith and also by people of different faiths. I wouldn't only read books about religions from the perspective of people who aren't even a part of that religion.


This is good, because there is a PILE of stuff out there written by christians that not only misinforms, but outright lies when it comes to other religions. Matter of fact, there are whole publishers dedicated to spreading such disinformation.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I concur. I'm not really thrilled regarding how their scripure and beliefs twist and malign judaism.

This is good, because there is a PILE of stuff out there written by christians that not only misinforms, but outright lies when it comes to other religions. Matter of fact, there are whole publishers dedicated to spreading such disinformation.
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
Ok, yeah I'd say that'd mean prophecy. But no reason to take the letters Paul wrote to the churches as prophecy is there?
Hmm I've never thought of God-breathed as meaning prophecy. Why do you think it means that? No I don't believe Paul wrote letters of prophecy to the churches.
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
I doubted the intent of this thread and I still doubt it due to the arguments against every single minute point. I don't doubt your own personal sincerity, and I've stated several times throughout you've been very sweet. It seems you have a difficult time understanding that other perspectives are as perfectly valid as yours.
Do you believe my intent was to show how people who left christianity weren't really christains to begin with and that their reasons for leaving are dumb? Oh well I'm glad you don't doubt my personal sincerity and thank you. You're right to some degree, I do believe some people have the wrong perspective on life or other things. Do you believe everyone has the right perspective?



No. A denial of your tactics and your debating style.
Oh
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
so then you can't show me an example...
Haha I actually skimmed over what you said and didn't read the word exampe, sure I can give you one.
I remember when this gay girl came to our church and I tried to be really ncie and friendly with her. You know, tried to make her feel welcome. She was cool and we started talking and we hung out a couple of times. She did ask me what I thought about her being gay(I said I thought it was wrong) but that didn't seem to bother her to much and we still talked and everything. :)
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
so why do you continue to? since your are comparing yourself to them in regards to how they base their belief?
I don't compare myself to people to determine my own self-worth. And I don't compare people to me. I compare their beliefs to what the Bible says.


other people who call themselves christians. why would i take your word over theirs if they too claim to base their belief on the bible, since that is where the idea of jesus came from ?
You shouldn't take anyone's, "word for it" Look in the Bible yourself. An example would be me telling you stealing si wrong(because the Bible says so) but someone else tells you stealing is right, God wants you to it. It would be pretty hard to decide who's right without looking in the Bible yourself.
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
no it doesn't say that at all. the point is... he has a way out if she doesn't bleed AFTER they have sex
That's what you think the point of Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is? That the guy has a way out after sex?? That's very interesting.
...or he's in trouble for slander if her parents can produce the proof that she was a virgin...
Right and if they produce the proof he has to pay because he gave her a bad name.
you do know that women do not always bleed. guess your god didn't know that. i find that to be very telling.
Yep and as I pointed out awhile ago they would've used some other method to prove she was a virgin. Of course God knows that, and I'm willing to bet not one women was killed if she truly was a virgin.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Haha I actually skimmed over what you said and didn't read the word exampe, sure I can give you one.
I remember when this gay girl came to our church and I tried to be really ncie and friendly with her. You know, tried to make her feel welcome. She was cool and we started talking and we hung out a couple of times. She did ask me what I thought about her being gay(I said I thought it was wrong) but that didn't seem to bother her to much and we still talked and everything. :)

ok...how else do you suppose i, as a non believer, would treat her?
or are you saying displaying "christ's love" is to state what you think is right when asked?

i still don't see how "christ's love" is any different from anything else...
 
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