Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

A gun that cannot be taken from him nor defended against, as your own responses have clearly shown you agree about. And that gun makes him immoral, because he's putting a gun to your head to force you to decide.

That's right nothing can take away God's authority. When God first created man, he didn't tell him, "Hey I created a place called hell, and if you disobey me then that's where you're going so you better obey."
Instead he created Adam to be in a reationship with him. He told him not to eat of a certain tree. When Adam disobeyed him and ruined God's plan then sin came into the world. Sin is why WE do immoral things. God ISN'T immoral for creating a punishment for it.

 

[Astravalon]

Indeed. You have to want him too though. That's what salvation's about, asking him to take away your sins. Some people enjoying living in sin, they wouldn't want it taken away from them. God gives us the choice.

Some sects of Christianity do seem to place the power of our
salvation in the individual's hands as opposed to God's,
however there appears to be quite a bit in scripture that
indicates that He is more in the driver's-seat with that than
is often believed. When Jesus died on the cross, that's
when he is said to have taken upon himself the sins of the
world. There evidently was no human vote on the matter; it
was an executive decision from on high.

There are so many other areas of our lives in which God
didn't give us a choice, and which have no bearing on our
eternal well-being: eye color, gender, nationality, parents,
home planet, etc. Therefore, I don't see God doing an
about-face and giving us free-reign in something far more
critical such as our eternal salvation. That would definitely
be an exercise in "straining at gnats while swallowing
camels" on His part. I can hear Him now: "I won't interfere
with where you spend your eternity, child, but by golly you
will have blue eyes, whether you like it or not!" lol!

That verse is talking about how we're like clay and God's the potter. We were created by him. That doesn't mean we're robots.

Exactly my point. Scripture says we're clay.

If you're interested (and to keep this post short), you can
check out the following, which I had posted awhile back
when I was looking into some of this myself:

1. Free Will and Robots
2. Free Will: Who Really Has It?
3. Saved by Whose Will--Ours, or God's?

-

 

[Vadergirl123]

No, I'm saying your christianity is yours, theirs is theirs, both based on the Bible, but arriving at different conclusions, so by continually saying "I base mine on the Bible", you aren't really telling us much. There are many denominations, all of which consider themselves "bible-based", yet their beliefs differ.

Well all views can't be right AND be from the same book. Especially if the views don't agree with each other. Someone is wrong.

This is good, because there is a PILE of stuff out there written by christians that not only misinforms, but outright lies when it comes to other religions. Matter of fact, there are whole publishers dedicated to spreading such disinformation.

Yeah it's sad and there's also things about Christains that lie and give false information.

 

[Vadergirl123]

There are so many other areas of our lives in which God

didn't give us a choice, and which have no bearing on our
eternal well-being: eye color, gender, nationality, parents,
home planet, etc. Therefore, I don't see God doing an
about-face and giving us free-reign in something far more
critical such as our eternal salvation.

Eh okay but nowhere does the Bible say/imply salvation is something you have to be forced to do. It's a choice.

Exactly my point. Scripture says we're clay.

It's metaphorical, Isaiah is using simile to show that we're created.

If you're interested (and to keep this post short), you can

check out the following, which I had posted awhile back
when I was looking into some of this myself:

Sure I'll look into it. Can I just P.M you what I think after I read over them?

 

[Vadergirl123]

If love is supposed to represent Christ's love for the Church, then why isn't the love valid if it's between two people of the same sex? Marriages were performed long before Christianity came along.

Valid? I'm not saying people who are gay aren't in love. However God chose to have marriage between a man and a woman. When he created Adam he didn't create another man to be his helpmeet, he created a woman.

Yes, but only on a marriage that is strictly tied to that moral. You should not apply Christian morals to Hindu marriages, for example, and neither should you apply Hindu morals to Christian marriages.

You don't have to apply any morals to a marriage if you don't want to. However since God's the one who created marriage(and human beings) I believe he knows best about it.

Nope, I didn't need to make an active choice. Why would I actively choose to lose faith and go through a time of doubt and searching? That's not how the mind works. It's basic psychology.

You wouldn't do that. You would read the Bible(as you said) decided it didn't amke since. I don't know if there were any peers or other works you read that influenced you, but eventually you chose to believe that Christianity just didn't make sense to you. Right?

So you do believe that you could choose to suddenly 100% honestly believe that you are a flying cat?

It wouldn't happen this minute, but over time yeah maybe. Again I really don't want to try.

I think the Bible is pretty clear about how he feels, and I'd say that it goes against my morals and my understanding of perfection.

I'm more of saying we can't empathize how he feels about sin. Yes the Bible tells us how he feels, but we can't feel that too. Like I can't empathize a moher's love for her child since I'm not a mom. I could imagine it, but I wouldn't truly understand it.

I don't believe in objective morals.

Yuo believe morals are subjective then?

 

[Rakhel]

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Well all views can't be right AND be from the same book. Especially if the views don't agree with each other. Someone is wrong.

This is kind of a strange view to take.
Judaism and Christianity use the same books. Both see their religion as right, yet don't agree on the usage and views of those same books.
So, who is wrong?

 

[waitasec]

I've already said I believe the Bible is true, which means that I'd compare anything else to it to see if that thing is also true.

why compare? are you not confident in what you believe?

Um okay you didn't really answer the question though. I'll reword it, what source would show you the Bible's true? Another religious book, God talking to you, etc, What would it be?

i already told you...there isn't any....
this is what i said...

i need an outside secondary source to confirm what the bible claims...there aren't any.

you know why there aren't any sources to confirm what the bible claims?
because it IS understood subjectively, not empirically.

 

[waitasec]

As I've said many times, the girl was stoned because she was having sexual relationships NOT because she didn't bleed.
Continue reading and you'll see that vs 21 says, "she's done an outrageous thing...by being promiscuous in her father's house. It DOESN'T say she's done an outrageous thing by not bleeding.

no. not at all. explain to me how did they come to the conclusion that she was not a virgin other then not bleeding?

 

[waitasec]

Yes I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree you're looking for truth, but not everything can have multiple perspectives and each perspective be true.

give me a realistic example of this
what is wrong with live and let live? what is wrong with understanding and respecting the personal boundaries of others?

If I looked at a red car and said it was yellow while you said it was red, would we both be right? No you'd be right because the car is red. I can have all the faith in the world that the car is yellow, but it'll still be red. Regardless of how much faith or belief I have.

we both see a car though.
and the way i experience the car isn't going to change your experience of the car.

 

[waitasec]

Hmm so I think I already asked but what's a 2nd source that would "prove" to you that it's true?



Yeah but not just faith. Having faith in something doesn't mean it's true. I already gave a car color analogy.

your car analogy says we both see a car.
so lets move it to the bible, we both see a book with words that are interpreted differently.

i guess what i am going for is more like...
we both see fire and we both know that if we touch it we both understand that we will get burned.

 

[waitasec]

I know people read it that way, but just because someone is "genuine in their pursuit for God's truth" doesn't mean the way they interpret the Bible is correct.

exactly...so what makes you think the way you interpret the bible is correct..
what i mean is, what makes you think the "truth" you find in the bible is to be used as a standard for everyone else?

Why shoudl I apply 2nd opinions to the Bible? There's no reason too.

then how do you determine what it is saying is true for everyone else?

 

[Vadergirl123]

This is kind of a strange view to take.

Well think about it, all views about the Bible can't be different and yet all be right. That doesn't really make sense

Judaism and Christianity use the same books. Both see their religion as right, yet don't agree on the usage and views of those same books.
So, who is wrong?

I don't know much about judaism, but I thought they used different books. I thought in Judaism they didn't use all of the Bible?

 

[Astravalon]

Eh okay but nowhere does the Bible say/imply salvation is something you have to be forced to do. It's a choice.

It is a choice, I agree, just not our choice. It was God’s
choice, in my view.

Scripture shows God saying that He will have all mankind to
be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Add to that His statement that He
will do all His desire (Isaiah 46:10), and that He works out
everything according to His will (Ephesians 1:11), it pretty
much settles it in my mind.

Not to sound like an All-State commercial, but it seems that
everyone is in good hands.

I think that’s also why Jesus used the metaphor of us having
to be “born again”. Birth is not something done under the
will of the one being birthed, but rather of the one delivering
the birth-ee. If personal choice or effort was ever supposed
to be an ingredient in God’s salvation recipe, Jesus would
have used a turn of phrase more conducive to conveying
personal effort/choice on our part. Birth, on the other hand,
is something that is done to us, given to us, not something
we opt into or execute by our own power.

Please understand, however, that I approach the salvation
issue from the monergistic perspective rather than the
synergistic perspective. I think it’s all God’s doing, from start
to finish. So that’s just my take on this; mileages may vary,
as they say. I’m with the Calvinists on this aspect, except
that, unlike Calvinism, I believe that everyone is “elected”
for salvation as opposed to just a relative handful.

It's metaphorical, Isaiah is using simile to show that we're created.

True, however I think the use of the concept of clay as the
metaphor of choice says a lot about how we as humans
compare to an all-powerful God. True, we were created, but
there is never a point after that at which clay becomes
autonomous.

Sure I'll look into it.

Can I just P.M you what I think after I read over them?

Whichever way you want to do it is great; I’m simply
providing them as food for thought, and to explain better
where I’m coming from.



-

 

[Vadergirl123]

why compare? are you not confident in what you believe?

Oh this is where your going, I don't really compare in the sense to find truth. I can read the Bible without having othre religions, books, scholars, etc agree with it. However in this forum it's inevitable that religions, views about life, and ideas will be compared to either the Bible or something else. I'm VERY confident in what I believe(as you probably already noticed haha)

i already told you...there isn't any....
this is what i said...
you know why there aren't any sources to confirm what the bible claims?
because it IS understood subjectively, not empirically.

So then why say you want an outside source, when you don't even believe one exists? It's more of because the Bible doesn't need an outside source to prove it's true.

 

[waitasec]

I've already talked about the preconceived ideas. To someone when the Bible talks about not stealing they might not see stealing as a bad thing so they'll say the passage can't mean that and find a different meaning for it. However to a person who just lets the Bible speak for itself then they'll see that the Bible says stealing is bad. You can't let what you think dictate what the Bible says, the Bible needs to dictate what you believe. Some people do the first and that's why there's different interpretations.

exactly...the truths in the bible are subjected to personal opinion.

Yes I agree there are some things you need to know, but the fact that ancient people didn't knwo everything we know today shouldn't be too much of a factor, considering God's the one who inspired the Bible.

so why didn't they know what we know now?
if god revealed his "word" which has been a topic of debate forever...why did he not also say...'look i didn't cause that earthquake because of your sin it's just the tectonics plates i created that are constantly moving.'
or, 'look your sickness isn't caused by the curse of sin, it's just a virus.'

Okay what does that have to do with what I was talking about. What do you mean Mark 16:16 can cause someone to commit a horrific act?

because it has.

 

[Vadergirl123]

no. not at all. explain to me how did they come to the conclusion that she was not a virgin other then not bleeding?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say and I have no way to know since I can't go back in time and watch the process.

 

[waitasec]

No problem



What if someone's personal morals said lying was okay. Does that mean it's fine for them to do it?

yes. i have no power over what one chooses to do.
do you?

Um salvation isn't based on how we treat others. Yes God gives it as a commandment, but being nice to others doesn't save you. Just like he tells us not to steal or lie, but not doing those things doesn't give you salvation.

so then why have those commandments about not lying and stealing and killing..it is they way in which we live with one another that is paramount
come to think of it, i think jesus talks about that more than he talks about himself

 

[Vadergirl123]

give me a realistic example of this
what is wrong with live and let live? what is wrong with understanding and respecting the personal boundaries of others?

I'm NOT saying not to respect other's opinions. You can respect someoen's opinion and still disagree with them An example would be the car analogy.

we both see a car though.
and the way i experience the car isn't going to change your experience of the car.

Right we both see a car(there's people who believe in God) but what I believe about the car(that it's yellow) is wrong. While what you believe about it(that it's red) is the correct belief. While believing something false might not change my "experience" I'm still believing something about the car that isn't true.

 

[Vadergirl123]

your car analogy says we both see a car.
so lets move it to the bible, we both see a book with words that are interpreted differently.

If the Bible is like the car. What I believe about it(If I believe it's yellow) is a FALSE belief. I can have all the faith in the world. I can have other people also tell me it's yellow. But the car will still be red. And you'll ahve the CORRECT belief because your saying it's red, which it is.

i guess what i am going for is more like...
we both see fire and we both know that if we touch it we both understand that we will get burned.

Okay I agree we'll both get burned..what does that have to do with the Bible or my analogy?

 

[Vadergirl123]

exactly...so what makes you think the way you interpret the bible is correct..
what i mean is, what makes you think the "truth" you find in the bible is to be used as a standard for everyone else?

Because I let the Bible speak for itself, and I odn't let my personal beliefs interfere with its message. Like I use to think drinking was a sin, and that God didn't want us to, but instead of changing the Bible to fit my belief, I allowed it to speak to me.

then how do you determine what it is saying is true for everyone else?

The Bible wasn't written just for me. Besides how would having a 2nd opinion show that the Bible is true. You yourself said there's no outside source.