Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

This has always bothered me. I was brought up to believe this with my conservative Baptist upbringing.
The story goes God created all things, but man chose to sin because man has free will. However, God knew all along that man would fall and provided a solution to bring man back, but only if man wants to. However, God didn't create sin or Hell or Satan.

Hmm well I believe sin is a choice. You could say God created man with the potential to sin. However I believe God created Satan and Hell.

If God knows all things (including the future) and is all-powerful, then God created angels. The only Lucifer could have chosen to rebel is if God created rebellion.

I also believe God created angels and Satan. Why does God have to "create" rebellion though. God obviously created Satan with free will and he chose to rebel against God.

The only way the snake could have convinced Eve (and Adam) to "sin" would be to create sin.

The serpent didn't create sin. Although you could say Satan was probably the first being to sin.

If God created all things out of nothing, then He had to, by default, create sin as an option for other created beings to choose.

I think we're thinking of different words. When you say create do you mean God defined what sin was? Or something else?

Of course, this also would mean that the biblical God created all things so they could be destroyed, so he could kill his son, and force his own creation to repent and be destroyed, a destruction God created.

Originally human beings weren't going to die. Adam brought death when he ate the fruit.

This doesn't make a lot sense to me anymore. And please don't say "God's ways aren't our ways". That's the biggest copout I've ever heard.

Okay

 

[Shermana]

i don't think that is what was understood.

my god, we are talking about a time when if one was left handed they were considered to be guided by witchery.

On a side note, I've always wondered if left handed people really were persecuted or socially ostracized, anyone got a source for that or is it urban legend?

 

[waitasec]

On a side note, I've always wondered if left handed people really were persecuted or socially ostracized, anyone got a source for that or is it urban legend?

i wonder where the term "left hand path" religions comes from?

 

[waitasec]

Hmm well I believe sin is a choice.

no you don't...we were all born into sin, right?

 

[Astravalon]

Hmm well I believe sin is a choice.

no you don't...we were all born into sin, right?

And "slaves" to sin (according to the bible).


-

 

[Vadergirl123]

with all due respect, who cares what you say about what god would and would not do

I would guess not many, which is a good thing since what God would do should be based on the Bible not my own personal words or feelings.

you care...that god is seen as a loving god...what evidence do you have to support this?

Actually I've never said this. If you see God as just a loving being then you're not truly understanding the Biblical God. Christ dying for us, how he's preserved Israel, his chosen people are a few off the top of my head.

why were those other sources of proof not included in this infallible book since you your self said mankind was fallible.

I still don't know

it's like saying to a 3 yr old who understands what the word "no" means.to not cross the street and then leave them unattended

I don't see how that analogy relates to what we're talking about?

but you do know as you continually say there was another way to prove unequivocally her a virgin.

No I don't know, I said I'm assuming.

so why say you don't know and then with the same breath say, 'god wouldn't let an innocent die' without actually providing evidence or something that would support your desperate plea other than wishful thinking? wishful thinking is not evidence.

God wouldn't allow an inoccent women to die from that law because that would mean the law was being used unjust and since the law was created by God, that would mean he was unjust. However God's not unjust so him having an unjust law contradicts his character. Therefore the law coudln't have been used unjustly.

then you have 2 options to consider.
1. the bible is fallible
2. god doesn't care about the details that hinges on either life or death for a girl

Obviously the Israelites had all the information they needed, and the details you're talking about weren't necessary. Again you can't prove any inoccent girl was killed.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't see how that analogy relates to what we're talking about?

It doesn´t, the 3 year old had 3 years to better know her/his creators (mom and dad ) to know if s/he can take their word as trustworthy or to understand a little bit more the world surrounding him /her .

In general terms, having been born before yesterday helps.

Adam and Eve didn´t have that.

 

[Vadergirl123]

no you don't...we were all born into sin, right?

Sorry I was in a hurry and mistyped. Yes I believe we're all born sinners. However even if we weren't born with it we'd still chose to sin.

 

[Vadergirl123]

evil morally objectionable behavior.

Morally objectional according to who?

not being guilty.

Not being guilty of what?

so people being murdered for having sex before marriage settles well with you?

They were killed and As I've said before some of God's laws sound hash to me. Again why does God need my approval?

children are innocent if they do not have the ability to judge for themselves.

Were you not able to judge things for yourself when you were a child?

what is the external consistency?

Prophecies comming true, people groups that were around when the Bible says they were. Those are the first few that come to mind.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I'll try your debate method for a second....
How do you know? You weren't there. How do you know God doesn't want an innocent woman killed?

I don't know. I'm basing what I say on the BIble. God killing an inoccent woman (who hadn't broken his law)goes against his nature since he's a just God.

I will put this gently - it's conversations like these with inflexible and dispassionate positions that support my reasons for leaving. If I am bisexual, just change (oh well). If I am not Christian enough, repent and remember I'm a sinner and cannot function without God and Jesus (oh well). Stop questioning and just do as the Bible says, Mystic (oh well).No thanks.

Mystic, I've never told you to, "change and not be bisexual or to go back to Christ and repent, or that you can't function without God. In fact I've said, "you can live however you want. It's your life. Why do you seem to think I'm trying to convert you back to Christianity?

 

[Vadergirl123]

but not having it in the bible contradicts the notion the bible is infallible.

So because the Bible doesn't talk about Moses going to the bathroom it's fallible? Or because it doesn't tell us what King David ate every day?? I don't understand your logic?

yes they are.
you said:tell me, do you think god commanded the murder of these people because of sex or because they were midianites?

Yeah and I'm against sex before marriage, but so what I don't murder people who are? I already told you they were slaughtered because of teh Peor incident.

you need to clear this up.
if god, in your mind, justified killing innocent children because they were midianites...or in other words 'guilty of being wicked', is a virgin completely innocent of all wickedness or just the sin of having sex before marriage?

Ah, I'll be more specific. The women who were virgins were inoccent in accordance with the law about killing those who weren't virgins. However they weren't inoccent in the sense that they were perfect women. I'm saying that God wouldn't have allowed someone to use his law to justify killing an inoccent women(or a women who hadn't broken his law).

but the girl isn't innocent. no one is, according to your twisted theology

In accordance with God's law about non-virgins being killed she would be(if proof was presented). However she's not inoccent in general since she'd have been a sinner. But God's law didn't say kill all the sinners for doing wrong. The law we're talking about was meant to be used to kill women who's, "been promiscuous." And by that law if she was a virgin then she'd be inoccent. Does that make sense?

 

[Rakhel]

Here you are wrong.


The Jewish court was disbanded at this time.

Yeah. In 30 C.E.However, if a claim were to ever come along that his trial happened before the court outlawed the death sentence, as in the timeline that keeps changing, I wanted it know that a unanimous court could not have sentenced him to death.

 

[Vadergirl123]

But how could you possibly determine either of those things? You've already said that we cannot understand what God wants,

No I didn't say that. I said we can't know everything about God.

so how can you say anything about God's nature? And how can you suddenly determine what the Bible - a book that has given birth to countless varying interpretations and denominations - "says in general"?

The Bible does tell us about God's nature. And most of the interpretation problems come from people having their own preconcieved notions and allowing the Bible to fit what they want to believe.

How is that inconsistant with the way the Bible presents God? .

Because he also shows how he loves and caes about human beings.

But is slavery wrong? God specifically endorses slavery in the old testament.

How are you defining "endorse?"

 

[F0uad]

Wow so many pages i am surprised :\

 

[waitasec]

So because the Bible doesn't talk about Moses going to the bathroom it's fallible? Or because it doesn't tell us what King David ate every day?? I don't understand your logic?

wow. are you really saying that peoples lives are at risk because they don't go into the details of moses taking a ****, really? are you purposefully trying to be coy?

Yeah and I'm against sex before marriage, but so what I don't murder people who are? I already told you they were slaughtered because of teh Peor incident.

the bravery of being out of range can only make someone say such nonsense.

Ah, I'll be more specific. The women who were virgins were inoccent in accordance with the law about killing those who weren't virgins. However they weren't inoccent in the sense that they were perfect women. I'm saying that God wouldn't have allowed someone to use his law to justify killing an inoccent women(or a women who hadn't broken his law).

so then what is the difference between then and the midainites?
don't tell me you don't know.

In accordance with God's law about non-virgins being killed she would be(if proof was presented). However she's not inoccent in general since she'd have been a sinner. But God's law didn't say kill all the sinners for doing wrong. The law we're talking about was meant to be used to kill women who's, "been promiscuous." And by that law if she was a virgin then she'd be inoccent. Does that make sense?

what of the little boys who were midianites? were they extra strength sinners?

 

[Vadergirl123]

So you believe God will take away their freewill?

No.

Because if they had wanted to kill a women they thought was guilty then God would have prevented them from the sin of killing an innocent person. God intervenes when he chooses to take away man's freedom to sin. That's what you believe?

No, I'm saying God wouldn't have allowed the Israelites to se a law he created to justify killing inoccent women(who hadn't broken the law)

Many people thought such action was justified according to the Bible.

So what? People think lots of things that are wrong.

Many people were killed as witches. Do you think they were all guilty. Or why didn't God prevent their deaths if they were innocent?

Why do you think witches/sorceresses were inoccent?

You don't really?
Jesus replied Don't you see that you are testing God by assuming God will intervene to prevent the killing of innocent people?

God was talking to Satan in this verse and I'm NOT, "testing God." I'm saying God wouldn't have allowed one of his laws to be used to justify killing inoccents.

who is innocent? no one, right?

If by inoccent you mean not guilty of sin then yes nobody is inoccent.

 

[waitasec]

If by inoccent you mean not guilty of sin then yes nobody is inoccent.

then there is your argument; why the virgins died because of an infallible test....

why do you have to jump through hoops to make your faith look nice and pretty and justified?

stand behind it without any apology and wear your badge proudly.

 

[Nakosis]

No, I'm saying God wouldn't have allowed the Israelites to (u)se a law he created to justify killing inoccent women(who hadn't broken the law)

How would God prevent them?

So what? People think lots of things that are wrong.

God would prevent one group from misusing his laws but not another?

Why do you think witches/sorceresses were inoccent?

Ok say they weren't. Do you think people who practice witchcraft should be killed because that is what the Bible says?

God was talking to Satan in this verse and I'm NOT, "testing God." I'm saying God wouldn't have allowed one of his laws to be used to justify killing inoccents.

Again how would God stop them?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Wow.

I think witches should not be killed.

I think women who engage in premarital sex should not be killed.

I think people who kill witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex are immoral.

I think any law that enforces killing witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex are immoral.

I think any deity that encourages, allows, demands any followers to kill witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex is immoral.

We're talking about killing somebody!

 

[Vadergirl123]

wow. are you really saying that peoples lives are at risk because they don't go into the details of moses taking a ****, really?

No I'm not saying that people's lives are at risk. My point was just because something's not in the Bible doesn't make it a fallible book. And you have no idea that any lives were even taken.

the bravery of being out of range can only make someone say such nonsense.

Out of range? God doesn't tell me anywhere to kill people who have premarital sex( I'm not an ancient Israelite)

so then what is the difference between then and the midainites?don't tell me you don't know.

The midianites didn't worship God and they'd decieved Israel.

what of the little boys who were midianites? were they extra strength sinners?

Yes the little boys were sinners.