Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

then there is your argument; why the virgins died because of an infallible test....

What? The women had done nothing wrong according to that law. If they were virgins then they were inoccent when it came to that law. However I already said they were sinners in general, but again that law didn't say all sinners would be killed.

why do you have to jump through hoops to make your faith look nice and pretty and justified?stand behind it without any apology and wear your badge proudly

I've never said my faith was, "nice and pretty." Living for God is hard and I am proud to be his child. I'm not apolgizing for God. There's no reaosn for me to do that.

 

[Vadergirl123]

How would God prevent them?

There's no reason to believe he had too prevent them. and if he possibly did I have no idea how he would've done it.

God would prevent one group from misusing his laws but not another?

The Israelites were God's chosen people. They represented him. Other groups around that time weren't.

Ok say they weren't. Do you think people who practice witchcraft should be killed because that is what the Bible says?

God told the Israelites to kill them at that time. That message wasn't adressed to Christains today, so there's no reason for me to go around killing witches.(I'm not an ancient Israelite)

 

[Vadergirl123]

Wow.
I think any deity that encourages, allows, demands any followers to kill witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex is immoral.We're talking about killing somebody!

Indeed we are, but why is it immoral for God to kill people who sin against him? How are you deciding what's moral or immoral? It's based on how you feel right?

 

[waitasec]

What? The women had done nothing wrong according to that law. If they were virgins then they were inoccent when it came to that law. However I already said they were sinners in general, but again that law didn't say all sinners would be killed.

neither did those little midianite boys that where murdered...since you your self said were guilty of sin, so what is the difference between the little midianite boys that were slain and innocent virgins?

I've never said my faith was, "nice and pretty." Living for God is hard and I am proud to be his child. I'm not apolgizing for God. There's no reaosn for me to do that.

i agree that you never flat out said your faith was nice and pretty.
but what you are displaying is your objection to gods injustice be laying out disclaimers for him to look nice and pretty.

 

[waitasec]

No I'm not saying that people's lives are at risk. My point was just because something's not in the Bible doesn't make it a fallible book. And you have no idea that any lives were even taken.

if someones life is on the brink of being destroyed by having gods word not include a test that was infallible to prove a girls innocence, then yes the bible is fallible.

Out of range? God doesn't tell me anywhere to kill people who have premarital sex( I'm not an ancient Israelite)

out of range of experience. it's what you are saying without the experience of living in that situation.
in fact you are showing you have no empathy for a person in that situation. how inspiring.

The midianites didn't worship God and they'd decieved Israel.
Yes the little boys were sinners.

how did the little boys deceive israel exactly?
i mean, were they just guilty by association, and why were the virgin girls saved?

something smells really funny here....but thats ok for you, just as long as you make your god look attractive enough, right?

 

[waitasec]

Indeed we are, but why is it immoral for God to kill people who sin against him? How are you deciding what's moral or immoral? It's based on how you feel right?

and of course, you aren't going by what you feel, right? what you have is more than a feeling.

at least some of us are consistent with our moral. others, well, they have to jump through hoops to make their faith look justifiable.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, that's the point. Your willing to allow a religious document to determine their guilt.



So you believe God will take away their freewill? Because if they had wanted to kill a women they thought was guilty then God would have prevented them from the sin of killing an innocent person. God intervenes when he chooses to take away man's freedom to sin. That's what you believe?



Many people thought such action was justified according to the Bible.
Many people were killed as witches. Do you think they were all guilty. Or why didn't God prevent their deaths if they were innocent?



You don't really?

Jesus replied Don't you see that you are testing God by assuming God will intervene to prevent the killing of innocent people?

Indeed we are, but why is it immoral for God to kill people who sin against him? How are you deciding what's moral or immoral? It's based on how you feel right?

Excuse me? God was doing the killing of women accused of premarital sex, personally? Where are you getting this stuff?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes people have given me reasons why they believe God did x, or what they think of him. And I have adressed their posts. Should I believe those people over the Bible though? If so why?

If people have given you reasons then why do you keep returning to a defense that implies no reasons were given?
the reason you should believe those people is because compared to the bible, their reasons are actually rational. The Bible is merely a book, which cannot adjust itself for new knowledge, or better philosophy. It makes no argument; it merely states absolutes, and does so rather badly. Much of what it says is contradictory, unfounded, or outright false. Therefore, you should listen to them over it, yes.

Right and I've said we brought sin upon ourselves.

When faced with a question that destroys your argument, you just go off in a random direction.
I am more moral than your God because I do not and would not use his blackmail methods on anyone, even if I possessed the power to do so.

I will now address this non sequitur point, which did not have anything to do with the sentence to which you just responded. It is impossible for us to bring sin upon ourselves. God created the concept of sin; it has everything to do with his feeling about whatever action; therefore he brought sin upon us. In addition since we are designed to tend toward sin, it is impossible for us to not sin.

So because you wouldn't give people an eternal punishment that makes you more moral? Why is eternal punishment for sin immoral?

Yes, it makes me more moral.

Eternal punishment for a finite sin is unjust; the punishment does not fit the crime in any way. In addition, any form of torture is immoral independent of its reasoning.

You told me a couple posts ago to not make assumptions that don't have evidence. How can you possibly know Jesus didn't die?? You weren't there to see if he was really dead.

have you read the bible? My 'evidence' is directly from the Bible narrative.

Jesus rose. Who else do you know who has done so? that's right, nobody; he did not stay dead. He imitated it, but it was nothing to him. He rose; he lost nothing, and in fact gained by dieing: he sits at god's right hand, does he not? A real sacrifice requires a permanent loss. Sleeping for 2 days is not a permanent loss.

You were not there either so anything you say about it is also moot by your own reasoning; but then your reasoning does not deserve the title. Demanding that someone be there to verify their opinion on it is extremely poor reasoning, since it destroys your argument simultaneously.

You're just assuming he didn't.

I am making a statement based directly on the evidence.
Is God no more? Did God perish? No, he's still there. So is Jesus. God did not do a thing.

And using the Mere Opinion Fallacy on any statement you disagree with is really starting to get ******* annoying.. Seriously, I think it behooves you perhaps to learn a bit more about debate methods and terms. Many of your statements seem like tantrums rather than a rational attempt to undermine or dispute an opponent's argument. You say 'Because you say so?" and "That's just your opinion!" far too often.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No I didn't say that. I said we can't know everything about God.

Post 618: "I also can't know what God wants, but what I say about him isn't my opinion. It's based on the Bible, which tells us about God."

The Bible does tell us about God's nature. And most of the interpretation problems come from people having their own preconcieved notions and allowing the Bible to fit what they want to believe.

And are you aware that you are one of those people?

Because he also shows how he loves and caes about human beings.

So you just ignore all the passage which describe all the horrible genocides God causes?

How are you defining "endorse?"

Specifically stating that it is permissable.

 

[Vadergirl123]

neither did those little midianite boys that where murdered

Actually they worshiped other gods, which goes against God's law

since you your self said were guilty of sin, so what is the difference between the little midianite boys that were slain and innocent virgins?

Difference? The inoccent virgins weren't guily of the law that related to them and the Midianite boys, as I've posted above were worshiping other gods and their people had decieved Israel.

i agree that you never flat out said your faith was nice and pretty.but what you are displaying is your objection to gods injustice be laying out disclaimers for him to look nice and pretty.

I'm not trying to make God look, "nice and pretty."And he's not unjust.

 

[Vadergirl123]

if someones life is on the brink of being destroyed by having gods word not include a test that was infallible to prove a girls innocence, then yes the bible is fallible.

Why do God's methods have to meet your expecatations. And why does he have to include every detail for YOU. The passage wasn't adressed to you or me, and it doesn't seem like the Israelites had any problems with his commands and again there's no reaosn to think God let his law be used to justify killing inoccents.

out of range of experience. it's what you are saying without the experience of living in that situation.in fact you are showing you have no empathy for a person in that situation. how inspiring.

Oh okay well I still wouldn't kill someone for having premarital sex.

how did the little boys deceive israel exactly?
i mean, were they just guilty by association, and why were the virgin girls saved?

I'd say it's probably pretty unlikely they actually decieved Israel themselves, but they most likely supported what their parents were doing, and were being raised in their parents lifestyle. The Bible itself doesn't specifically say why the girls were enslaved.

something smells really funny here....but thats ok for you, just as long as you make your god look attractive enough, right?

I'm not trying to make God look, "attractive to people." I'm more of concerned with people beleiving untrue things about him.

and of course, you aren't going by what you feel, right? what you have is more than a feeling.

Not really. If I based my morals on just how I felt then they would be different then they are now.

at least some of us are consistent with our moral. others, well, they have to jump through hoops to make their faith look justifiable.

I'm not inconsistent with them. I've said I believe premarital sex is wrong. I've never said I believe it's right. Inconsistent would be me saying it's okay to have premarital sex in some cases, but I haven't said that.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Excuse me? God was doing the killing of women accused of premarital sex, personally? Where are you getting this stuff?

I was replying to Mystic NOT naokises when I sent that message.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Wow.

I think witches should not be killed.

I think women who engage in premarital sex should not be killed.

I think people who kill witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex are immoral.

I think any law that enforces killing witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex are immoral.

I think any deity that encourages, allows, demands any followers to kill witches and/or women who engage in premarital sex is immoral.

We're talking about killing somebody!

I was replying to Mystic NOT naokises when I sent that message.

That is what I said, and I stand by it.

 

[fantome profane]

Actually they worshiped other gods, which goes against God's law

So you believe that the Israelites killed children because they followed a different religion, and you believe this is a good and just act.

 

[Vadergirl123]

If people have given you reasons then why do you keep returning to a defense that implies no reasons were given?

I should've said people haven't given me "good reasons." I could give you good reasons to do something, but if the reasons weren't sufficent you'd be under no obligation to believe/follow them

the reason you should believe those people is because compared to the bible, their reasons are actually rational.

So if something sounds rational I should just believe it. You know you can make a pretty "rational" argument to support just about anything.

When faced with a question that destroys your argument, you just go off in a random direction.

okay I wasn't aware you'd even asked me a question that destroyed my argument, which I didn't answer.

I am more moral than your God because I do not and would not use his blackmail methods on anyone, even if I possessed the power to do so.

God's not really blackmailing us. We're sinners and destined for hell. God provided us with an escape from that punishment. We weren't perfect beings and he then gave us the choice of following him or eternal punishment and separation.
Just because you woudln't provide people with that option doens't make you moral than God.

I will now address this non sequitur point, which did not have anything to do with the sentence to which you just responded. It is impossible for us to bring sin upon ourselves.

Yet Adam did bring sin upon mankind according to the Bible.

God created the concept of sin; it has everything to do with his feeling about whatever action; therefore he brought sin upon us. In addition since we are designed to tend toward sin, it is impossible for us to not sin.

God defined sin yes, but he didn't bring it upon us and he designed Adam originally as a perfect being. He wasn't desinged to "tend torward sin" however God did give him the ability to make choices, which allows the potential for sin. It wan't impossible for Adam to not sin.

Eternal punishment for a finite sin is unjust; the punishment does not fit the crime in any way. In addition, any form of torture is immoral independent of its reasoning.

God's an infinite being so the punishment has to be infinite. and think about it if someone were just punished for a short time, they'd go back to sinning once they were done with the punishment. Why is torture immoral?

have you read the bible? My 'evidence' is directly from the Bible narrative. Jesus rose. Who else do you know who has done so? that's right, nobody;

Right and also Lazraus rose.

he did not stay dead. He imitated it, but it was nothing to him. He rose; he lost nothing, and in fact gained by dieing: he sits at god's right hand, does he not? A real sacrifice requires a permanent loss. Sleeping for 2 days is not a permanent loss.

Why do you think he imitated it? There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that. And why does his sacrifice have to have a permanent loss to be real?

You were not there either so anything you say about it is also moot by your own reasoning;

Indeed, but if we're both basing our statements on the Bible then we can accurately say Jesus really did die. Yous aying he imitated it isn't Bible based. It's just an assumption.

Demanding that someone be there to verify their opinion on it is extremely poor reasoning, since it destroys your argument simultaneously.

If it were just based on you and me(and the Bible was out fo it) then yes my argument woudl be destroyed because it woudl just be your word over mine about an event we didn't even witness. However the Bible reccords the event and it doesn't say anything about Jesus imitating death, nor does it even imply that. It says he died.

I am making a statement based directly on the evidence.Is God no more? Did God perish? No, he's still there. So is Jesus. God did not do a thing.

If the Bible said that Jesus just died then yes you would have some "evidence" but it also says he rose again, so you shouldn't expect him to still be dead.

. Many of your statements seem like tantrums rather than a rational attempt to undermine or dispute an opponent's argument. You say 'Because you say so?" and "That's just your opinion!" far too often.

Well people have been saying things that are just their opinion or they're deciding what's right according to them, but I'll try to limit saying those phrases when talking with you.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Post 618: "I also can't know what God wants, but what I say about him isn't my opinion. It's based on the Bible, which tells us about God."

Oh yeah, I was saying how we can't know anything about God without the Bible.

And are you aware that you are one of those people?

Yes, I have the preconcieved notion that what the Bible says is true. But I'm not twisting it's words to support my own personal beliefs.

So you just ignore all the passage which describe all the horrible genocides God causes?

Nope, but I also don't ignore all the passages that show him as caring and loving

Specifically stating that it is permissable.

Ah well that's not really endorsing. Endorsing is to declare one's public approval or support of. But yes God did permit slavery and gives laws on how people should treat their slaves. Also slavery in ancient times was different then salvery in say America. It wasn't based on skin color.

 

[Alceste]

"Why is torture immoral?"

Oh dear God, save me from your followers.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Witchery not existing. So everyone who was called a witch was falsely accused.

It's totally possible it existed. Their were witches/sorceresses in the O.T Hmm when you say, "witchery" what do you mean exactly?

Seeing as God is omniscient, He knew that if He created man, they would sin. So I would say that He created men as sinners if we are to trust the Bible.

Yes God did know what would happen, but I don't see how that shows he created men as sinners.

God decided what a sin was. Before God decided, there was no sin. So God created the concept of sin.

God defined sin yes

Then the same thing applies to the dictator scenario (where he says follow me or get tortured), which you said that it did not.

Well God didn't just come in and say follow me or get tortured. We were already destined for eternal separation from him and he provided us with a way out. In your dictator scenario the people aren't already about to be tortured and then the dictator comes and says I have a way to free you from the torture.

I don't remember, I was just a kid. I guess little kids aren't too good at making rational decisions based on logic.

Hahaha well would you guess that it probably felt more natural for you to seek revenge then turn the other cheek?

 

[Alceste]

Just to recap the kind of opinions one ends up embracing when they choose to believe the Bible is the ultimate guide to morality:

Honour killings are OK.
There's nothing wrong with torture.
Killing other humans is no big deal, like if it's punishment or a war or something.
Slavery is not wrong unless it's based on skin colour.

Wow. Just... wow.

 

[Vadergirl123]

"Why is torture immoral?"Oh dear God, save me from your followers.

I'm trying to make a point(the question soudns really badI know haha, but please bare with me) and I don't have followers...