Ex Christians

[-Peacemaker-]

that is still up for debate.

don't you find it interesting that ones belief is always the right belief...?

what is so important about being right about said belief? what matters is how we treat one another.

It's interesting but not surprising

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

 

[waitasec]

It's interesting but not surprising

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

that is what i am talking about...

for me it is very telling that there are hundreds of interpretations as to the character of jesus...who's advice is one to follow?

 

[uu_sage]

King of the Jungle- My way of being Christian is about following in Jesus' example and teaching and not blindly adhering to doctrines created about Jesus centuries after his death. Jesus said there was two commandments that summed the law and the prophets and those were to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and the second commandment liken unto it was to love others as you love oneself" Jesus also said in the Gospel of John chapeter 13, "They will know if you are my disciples if you have love for one another". In Matthew 25 we are told that when we are judged the questions will not be "Did you recite the Nicene Creed?" "Did you follow a certain political party?" The questions will be- "Did you visit the imprisoned?", "Did you clothe the naked?", "Did you give drink to the thirsty" Basically its about treating compassionately the least among us. By Jesus is son of the living God I mean that Jesus is a son in that we are all God's children and that Jesus had a profound experience of God. Jesus is not God's biological son but Jesus is God's spiritual son. At Jesus' baptism, God showed favor with Jesus by saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I am well pleased". Jesus was a faithful and devoted Jew. As a Jew he knew and recited the Shema, a common affirmation for all Jewish people- Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29, Duet 6:4). Jesus would have nothing to do with the doctrines that were created in his name. Jesus during his ministry questioned and challenged the fundamentalists of his day by saying "They had transformed his Father's house of all people into a den of thieves" (Matt 21:13), Jesus also condemned the Pharisees for "shutting the gates of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces (Matt 23:13) and also accused the Pharisees of "Tithing mint, dill and cummin and neglected the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faithfulness". The doctrine of the Trinity was not developed until 381 of the Common Era and damnationism was not developed as a doctrine until the end of the 5th century. I trust Jesus as my Lord (master) because he is my way shower, my path to God, he is the one who teaches me in the ways of God and that the way of God as reveled in Jesus calls me to resist the ways of Empire- dividing, conquering and excluding. Jesus is my Savior in that he delivers me from superficial relationships, that Jesus delivers me from complacency and indifference. I believe that we die and rise with Christ. As Jesus said in John, "That if I be lifted up from earth I shall draw (Greek=drag) all humankind unto myself" where all means all. (John 12:32). Jesus was crucified because he dare challenge the divisive and cruel ways of Empire and because he dare to profess and proclaim the radically inclusive and transformative love of God for all creation. The Romans thought that if they could crucify this radical prophet and Rabbi from Nazareth that his movement would die with him. Jesus' resurrection and death proved that even when you kill the love of God inside a person, that love will still persist even in the midst of death. That God's love and grace will triumph over all human limitation, arrogance and power. Jesus died with us instead of dying for us. Jesus was not sacrificed to a hateful God. Jesus when he died was suffering with those who suffer and in that suffering God was present with Jesus and those who are suffering. Jesus died to liberate humankind from injustice, hate and aimlessness. Jesus came to reconcile all humanity to the God of all love, acceptance and compassion.

Then it comes back to the MEANING of that title. For orthodox Christians it's usually viewed as an affirmation of his divinity when used in the context of Jesus. For others it can mean that he's a son just like all of God's children i.e. he's just a man

 

[Shermana]

that is what i am talking about...

for me it is very telling that there are hundreds of interpretations as to the character of jesus...who's advice is one to follow?

You'd be best with the "Messianic Jewish" opinion about Jesus if you want a scholarly approach to it. Kind of hard to justify listening to non-Messianic-Jewish opinions about the Jewish Messiah, don't you think? And when it comes to "orthodox" Jewish opinions about Jewish, most of their opinions are based on the gentile opinions, mostly strawmen. However, those like Schmuley Boteach are starting to wise up and see that Jesus wasn't so unkosher after all. But in the typical "gentile Christian" Pauline perspective, Jesus was as unkosher as ham and cheese on Easter. You'd think the Jewish messiah should be seen from a Jewish lens, right?

Most historians and "unchurched" scholars seem to agree these days that Jesus was teaching nothing much outside of "Nazarene" (esoteric, Essene-ish) Judaism. This all changed after the Pauline Schisms and the proto-Gnostics started to try to cash in on this growing movement, to what eventually became the proto-orthodox.

This assertion could take books to go over in detail, feel free to ask about any specifics.

As King of the Jungle quotes:

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

That is why the orthodox "Church" doesn't seem too keen on listening to scholarly developments.

 

[Shermana]

Then it comes back to the MEANING of that title. For orthodox Christians it's usually viewed as an affirmation of his divinity when used in the context of Jesus. For others it can mean that he's a son just like all of God's children i.e. he's just a man

The word "Divinity" is often misunderstood. Angels have divinity. Angels are called "gods". (Hosea 12:1-12, Septuagint of Psalm 8:5) Justin Martyr called Jesus the "Angel of god". Therefore, Jesus did have Divinity, he just wasn't the same being as the Father (even as a different "person" however the orthodox define that term). The same term "sons of god" is used to apply to Angels as well (Job 2:1). That is why the Jews got angry at Jesus for claiming to be the Son of God (John 10:36-39), he was calling himself "a god", and that explains his response in John 10:34 by quoting Psalm 82:6. Samuel's soul is also called "a god" when summoned by the Witch of Endor. It's quite clear what Jesus intended when one understands ancient Israelite Cosmology and ditches the trappings of "orthodox" doctrines that ultimately try to steer clear of the source ideas.

 

[thau]

It was your tangled web I was trying to unweave. .

I did not perceive any sincere attempt?

Now you're either hallucinating, or just making stuff up.

I just admitted to being uncertain of your message. Why not just prepare a simple statement for the press and tell us if you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without whom no man can get to heaven or not? Or tell us what you do believe about supernatural presence, what happens when we die, and whether what we do on earth makes a difference or not? And then after all that, tell us you couldn’t care less one way or another, like you accuse me of.

So you admit this is all just a game for you. .

A game? No, quagmire, it is a trial. Does it really take an internet poster like me to convince you of that?

Of course He's no mystery to you, why would he be?: You couldn't care less about Him one way or the other.

I can see you think I am putting words in your mouth that you do not ascribe to, so this is your way of pay back? Fine. I still believe you prevaricate and say a lot of nothing or dance around direct challenges with generic ho-hum kind of remarks. Sorry if I am so offensive.

 

[waitasec]

You'd be best with the "Messianic Jewish" opinion about Jesus if you want a scholarly approach to it. Kind of hard to justify listening to non-Messianic-Jewish opinions about the Jewish Messiah, don't you think? And when it comes to "orthodox" Jewish opinions about Jewish, most of their opinions are based on the gentile opinions, mostly strawmen. However, those like Schmuley Boteach are starting to wise up and see that Jesus wasn't so unkosher after all. But in the typical "gentile Christian" Pauline perspective, Jesus was as unkosher as ham and cheese on Easter. You'd think the Jewish messiah should be seen from a Jewish lens, right?

Most historians and "unchurched" scholars seem to agree these days that Jesus was teaching nothing much outside of "Nazarene" (esoteric, Essene-ish) Judaism. This all changed after the Pauline Schisms and the proto-Gnostics started to try to cash in on this growing movement, to what eventually became the proto-orthodox.

This assertion could take books to go over in detail, feel free to ask about any specifics.

As King of the Jungle quotes:



That is why the orthodox "Church" doesn't seem too keen on listening to scholarly developments.

you reminded me of what another poster said on this thread .
that the jews went against gods law, which is why jewish opinion has no relevance according to christian belief. my question is, what was that do you suppose? what was the act of disobedience that supposedly occurred before jesus was born for him having to be born?


edit:
(not that i believe this to be true)

 

[waitasec]

No a common tactic is to faint and then leave it to God. Not quite there yet, but close.

i have a question....

do you trust god? or do you think god relies on your persuasive ability?

 

[waitasec]

i completely missed this.... errr.

They forsook God for other gods and stopped following his laws. And yes God did know that they would break his law, he had been planning his new covenant with Jesus to give a 2nd chance.

more. i need you to be more specific. because that is a serious charge against the jewish community and it has to be supported with objective evidence that history has revealed, imo.

Same God, different covenant

who made these covenants? it's like god promising something while knowing, as he is supposedly omniscient, what the outcome of the 1st covenant would be...then why continue to string them along?

Remember the options I gave you of what coudl happen to the children. Well girls weren't going to grow up to attack Israel in venegance.

are you saying god, the one who created this universe was really powerless, as powerless as man can be, had to resort to such tactics in order to get the upper leg?

I'm glad you don't really think he's a hypocrite and as I said above same God different covenant.

Yes I realize you see God as an evil, inconsistent being, but that's your opinion of him. Also while I can try to convince you what you see as green is actually blue, you're right in that I most likely won't change your mind. However the thing you see as green might really be blue, but you just think it being green is more reasonable(however just because soemthing's reasonable doesn't mena it's right/truth)

when attributes about god, much less the idea of god (lets not go there) are unverifiable, an opinion is as meaningful as the opposing opinion...and that is all we got here...opinions.
now if we were to rationalize these opinions...one opinion desperately wants objective empirical evidence in order to concede to the opposing opinion...which opinion is more rationale?

Threatened isn't the right word, but God didn't want people to start thinking of themselves as all high and mighty.

Hahaha yes he did

like i said, they wouldn't feel all high and mighty had god let them get altitude sickness and would be humbled.
to me, the story of the tower clearly points to a man made idea of god, if taken literally.. if taken metaphorically, it's a poetic way of explaining why people speak different languages....that's it...

 

[Nakosis]

It's interesting but not surprising

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

I don't mind listening to advise. That doesn't mean I should accept it without question. Doesn't mean I shouldn't judge whether that advise has any worth or value.

 

[Quagmire]

I did not perceive any sincere attempt?

Not perceiving things seems to be one of your primary defense mechanisms.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2982544-post1419.html

I just admitted to being uncertain of your message.

Because obviously you haven't read any of my posts.

Why not just prepare a simple statement for the press and tell us if you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without whom no man can get to heaven or not?

No, I do not believe that. Further more, neither do you.

Or tell us what you do believe about supernatural presence, what happens when we die, and whether what we do on earth makes a difference or not?

I'm not going to do that because:

A. It's none of your business.

B. It has nothing to do with this thread.

C. You wouldn't understand most of it if I explained it to you.

D. The only reason you brought any of this up was to get the focus off of yourself and the fact that you've, for all intents and purposes, inadvertently admitted that you don't really believe most of what you're pretending to believe, and I'm not going to help you do that.

And then after all that, tell us you couldn’t care less one way or another, like you accuse me of.

Why would I do that?

A game? No, quagmire, it is a trial.

That's exactly it: you're making a game out of being as trying as possible. You're emotional well-being depends on this appearance of faith that you try and wrap around yourself, the appearance is dependent on a lot of self-contradictory pseudo-logistics, and as long as you surround yourself with a lot of people who are doing the same thing (playing the same game) you feel safe and at least semi-secure.

Problem is, that isn't enough. You have to go looking for confirmation outside of your circle (since you aren't likely to find any within that circle. Affirmation, yes. Confirmation, no).

So you come into a place like this, basically demanding that everyone humor you, and passive/aggressively punishing anyone who doesn't go along with it.

Sorry vanityofvanities, we aren't here to humor you, and while I have sympathy for your insecurity and doubts and the level of conflict that must be raging in your mind over trying to maintain a self-contradictory perception of reality, it isn't my job to help you re-enforce your denial system in order for you to deal with it.

Does it really take an internet poster like me to convince you of that?

Of course not. The fact that people like you even exist should be enough proof for anybody that life is supposed to be a trial.

I can see you think I am putting words in your mouth that you do not ascribe to,

I'd be happy if you payed just a little bit of attention to the words that actually are coming out of my mouth.

so this is your way of pay back?

What? By pointing out the obvious?

Fine. I still believe you prevaricate and say a lot of nothing or dance around direct challenges with generic ho-hum kind of remarks.

You believe that because you need to believe that, same as all of your other "beliefs".

Sorry if I am so offensive.

And I'm sorry for you.

 

[adi2d]

Not perceiving things seems to be one of your primary defense mechanisms.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2982544-post1419.html



Because obviously you haven't read any of my posts.




No, I do not believe that. Further more, neither do you.



I'm not going to do that because:

A. It's none of your business.

B. It has nothing to do with this thread.

C. You wouldn't understand most of it if I explained it to you.

D. The only reason you brought any of this up was to get the focus off of yourself and the fact that you've, for all intents and purposes, inadvertently admitted that you don't really believe most of what you're pretending to believe, and I'm not going to help you do that.



Why would I do that?



That's exactly it: you're making a game out of being as trying as possible. You're emotional well-being depends on this appearance of faith that you try and wrap around yourself, the appearance is dependent on a lot of self-contradictory pseudo-logistics, and as long as you surround yourself with a lot of people who are doing the same thing (playing the same game) you feel safe and at least semi-secure.

Problem is, that isn't enough. You have to go looking for confirmation outside of your circle (since you aren't likely to find any within that circle. Affirmation, yes. Confirmation, no).

So you come into a place like this, basically demanding that everyone humor you, and passive/aggressively punishing anyone who doesn't go along with it.

Sorry vanityofvanities, we aren't here to humor you, and while I have sympathy for your insecurity and doubts and the level of conflict that must be raging in your mind over trying to maintain a self-contradictory perception of reality, it isn't my job to help you re-enforce your denial system in order for you to deal with it.



Of course not. The fact that people like you even exist should be enough proof for anybody that life is supposed to be a trial.



I'd be happy if you payed just a little bit of attention to the words that actually are coming out of my mouth.



What? By pointing out the obvious?



You believe that because you need to believe that, same as all of your other "beliefs".



And I'm sorry for you.

Quagmire. I'm usually just a lurler here but I got to say that is the smoothest putting someone in their place that I have seen in a long time. Well done sir

 

[Quagmire]

Quagmire. I'm usually just a lurler here but I got to say that is the smoothest putting someone in their place that I have seen in a long time. Well done sir

Thanks adi2d. :yes:

 

[Jacksnyte]

It's interesting but not surprising

Proverbs 12:15

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

Exactly! ( Remember, this applies to ALL parties, including the one doing the scripture-quoting)

 

[Shermana]

Exactly! ( Remember, this applies to ALL parties, including the one doing the scripture-quoting)

Oh do I love when they quote that verse, the irony meter goes crazy.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Exactly! ( Remember, this applies to ALL parties, including the one doing the scripture-quoting)

I hadn't thought of that

 

[Heathen Hammer]

IThe second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

Given all the responses in the thread made before you pointed this out, your opinion does not seem born out by any facts whatsoever. In fact can you even find one serious post that suggested the poster left xtianity because they could not fulfill their carnal desires?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Given all the responses in the thread made before you pointed this out, your opinion does not seem born out by any facts whatsoever. In fact can you even find one serious post that suggested the poster left xtianity because they could not fulfill their carnal desires?

I'm sure he would be referencing to me as an example since he and I have had conversations in the past about my orientation and my experiences with the Christian community and it's interpretation of doctrine, and that my experiences left me feeling alone, depressed, and full of self-loathing.

Our conversations included a sentiment that if I would just stick it out and continue to pray for God's grace and to just lean on him through Jesus, that I'd be living the good Christian and moral life and not giving in to my "carnal" desires by 1) being with women, and 2) accepting my sexual orientation as natural and healthy.

 

[waitasec]

Given all the responses in the thread made before you pointed this out, your opinion does not seem born out by any facts whatsoever. In fact can you even find one serious post that suggested the poster left xtianity because they could not fulfill their carnal desires?

to be fair...
i too had a discourse with the king of the jungle.

however his post was in and of it self a deliberate attempt at undermining why some of us chose the path we decided for ourselves.

 

[Alceste]

I'm sure he would be referencing to me as an example since he and I have had conversations in the past about my orientation and my experiences with the Christian community and it's interpretation of doctrine, and that my experiences left me feeling alone, depressed, and full of self-loathing.

Our conversations included a sentiment that if I would just stick it out and continue to pray for God's grace and to just lean on him through Jesus, that I'd be living the good Christian and moral life and not giving in to my "carnal" desires by 1) being with women, and 2) accepting my sexual orientation as natural and healthy.

I would hardly call the desire not to feel ashamed of oneself "carnal". That's just the yearning for peace of mind we all feel when we are psychologically traumatized. In fact, if I believed in God, I would assume the urge to become a happier, healthier person was motivated by her.