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Ex Christians

thau

Well-Known Member
then the church should marry those who want to marry a same sex partner...
it's a double standard.




luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.

seems pretty clear to me...
but unless you think what paul has to say is more meaningful then maybe calling your self a christian isn't accurate, a paulian would suit the church better.




then the church should marry those that wish to be married.
whats the big deal?

Engaging in homosexual relations is a grave sin, not unlike adultery and other types of premarital sex. By the Church marrying a homosexual couple is tantamount to giving its blessing to the sexual act. It would be abhorrent and the Bible is as clear as the Church on that. So there is no double standard, nor do I find your Bible verses supporting your point of view in the least.

The Church condemns no man for his sin, but it does allow the forgiveness of all sins in the confessional. The Church calls adultery reprehensible and other lustful acts outside of marriage to be intrinsically wrong. A gay person can surely make it to heaven so there is no reason for that person to abandon God. Their sin may be nearly impossible to avoid and if that be the case I am fairly certain God takes that into account. God is both merciful and just. Not unlike the Church condemning artificial contraception, but knowing the weakness and temptations of man, they tell their priest not to berate the sinner of this in the confessional. They refer to this condition as "invincible ignorance" and once again with the implication that God will be merciful to many for their weakness or errors.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Engaging in homosexual relations is a grave sin, not unlike adultery and other types of premarital sex. By the Church marrying a homosexual couple is tantamount to giving its blessing to the sexual act. It would be abhorrent and the Bible is as clear as the Church on that. So there is no double standard, nor do I find your Bible verses supporting your point of view in the least.
The Church condemns no man for his sin, but it does allow the forgiveness of all sins in the confessional. The Church calls adultery reprehensible and other lustful acts outside of marriage to be intrinsically wrong. A gay person can surely make it to heaven so there is no reason for that person to abandon God. Their sin may be nearly impossible to avoid and if that be the case I am fairly certain God takes that into account. God is both merciful and just. Not unlike the Church condemning artificial contraception, but knowing the weakness and temptations of man, they tell their priest not to berate the sinner of this in the confessional. They refer to this condition as "invincible ignorance" and once again with the implication that God will be merciful to many for their weakness or errors.

interesting you keep saying the church this and the church that....
well not really interesting, but very telling.


the bible says jesus said the church is to do what you ignored.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
MOD POST

Please keep Rule 1 in mind when posting.

1. Off-topic personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks are strictly prohibited either on the forums or by private messaging, frubal comments, signature lines and visitor messages. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.


While the subject matter of this thread can be delicate, all posters must refrain from personal attacks on other members.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Everything the Bible teaches, everything the Catholic Church teaches, everything revealed to the Church by the saints completely and utterly refutes your belief system. So you think both can be right? You think both are ordained paths to salvation? They are diametrically in opposition to each other.

Jesus speaks of Satan, as he said he saw him fall from heaven like a lightning bolt. I assure you he was not speaking of God the Father.

What’s your point anyway? Give us your grand theology about salvation, heaven and hell in so many words and see who embraces it. I think it is pure evil. Did I hurt your feelings again? Spare me the rules violations and just be tough enough to endure a little criticism. As I said, you calling me a liar or a deceiver or a false teacher does not ruffle one hair on my head. But neither am I going to be a coward and let you have your way around here without speaking out upon the dangers of it.

You find my words so objectionable because I “tested” you. Well, sorry for my unfair play, but the trials we are subject to on a daily basis are every bit as important of tests as anything being exchanged on the internet. We are all being tested continuously and the choices we make will define our character and our hearts, not some slip up of words on a page.

No, I was not referring to LeVay or Crowley, I was only guessing your theology came from some source of ancient times, like the Kabala or some other esoteric meanderings filled with half truths and deceptions. Both of us can never be right, don’t you agree? The eternal fate of a soul is at stake, no less, or is that not a part of your beliefs either?

You have no idea what I believe, obviously.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HEAVEN.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SALVATION.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY OR COSMOLOGY.
I AM NOT CATHOLIC.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YAHWEH OR JESUS.

MY BELIEFS ARE MY OWN, NOT THAT OF SOME ANCIENT OR MODERN MAN. THEY ARE MINE AND MINE ALONE, AS REVEALED TO ME THROUGH PERSONAL REVELATION.


edit: also how can you know if it's pure evil, if you do not even know what it is?
 

thau

Well-Known Member
You have no idea what I believe, obviously.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HEAVEN.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SALVATION.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY OR COSMOLOGY.
I AM NOT CATHOLIC.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YAHWEH OR JESUS.

MY BELIEFS ARE MY OWN, NOT THAT OF SOME ANCIENT OR MODERN MAN. THEY ARE MINE AND MINE ALONE, AS REVEALED TO ME THROUGH PERSONAL REVELATION.


edit: also how can you know if it's pure evil, if you do not even know what it is?


Thanks for a response of some substance. Question: Is my asking you what you personally believe of poor decorum here? I almost get that sense. Realizing none of us are obligated to respond to anyone’s comment I do not see why it might offend. Maybe the tone of my words was what was a bit ill-mannered, that I might acknowledge, but again, not that big of a deal to my way of thinking.

So you have done well in telling me what you do not believe which does suggest a bit of what you do believe. If that’s as far as you care to go, well enough.

In following though, I am led to wonder of your motivations for being here? Probably it is merely because the various ideas of religions fascinates you and discussions at our level entertain you. Ok. Or perhaps you have some desire to try to discredit everyone else’s hopes and beliefs around here because that too might give you some pleasure? I am simply curious. As for me, my intial objective was to convince others of the truth as much as it was to entertain myself or see my words on a page, but ultimately I can now see the intial objective is by and large unattainable so I can no longer kid myself why I still hang around.

Finally, I did notice amongst all your denials you did not say you do not believe in an afterlife? One can only wonder what you think that will be like.



ps - To your "edit" question, I do not know for certain it is evil, but I believe it is in my best interests as a Christian to speak out with some courage and risk of being wrong than it is to remain silent. God asks us to be hot or cold, not lukewarm.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Thanks for a response of some substance. Question: Is my asking you what you personally believe of poor decorum here? I almost get that sense. Realizing none of us are obligated to respond to anyone’s comment I do not see why it might offend. Maybe the tone of my words was what was a bit ill-mannered, that I might acknowledge, but again, not that big of a deal to my way of thinking.

So you have done well in telling me what you do not believe which does suggest a bit of what you do believe. If that’s as far as you care to go, well enough.

In following though, I am led to wonder of your motivations for being here? Probably it is merely because the various ideas of religions fascinates you and discussions at our level entertain you. Ok. Or perhaps you have some desire to try to discredit everyone else’s hopes and beliefs around here because that too might give you some pleasure? I am simply curious. As for me, my intial objective was to convince others of the truth as much as it was to entertain myself or see my words on a page, but ultimately I can now see the intial objective is by and large unattainable so I can no longer kid myself why I still hang around.

Finally, I did notice amongst all your denials you did not say you do not believe in an afterlife? One can only wonder what you think that will be like.



ps - To your "edit" question, I do not know for certain it is evil, but I believe it is in my best interests as a Christian to speak out with some courage and risk of being wrong than it is to remain silent. God asks us to be hot or cold, not lukewarm.

Having no internet sucks.

To answer your questions,

My motivation for being here is to discuss and debate religion so as to keep keen on the matter.

The Afterlife, for those who obtain it, is probably maddening for some but great for others, depending on if living forever, around the living but in spirit form, is fun or torturous not having bodies. But even in spirit form you can "die" again, but then permanently.

Also I should note that "convincing others of the truth" would probably be considered to be trying to convert people, which is against rule 8. Also the "danger" of my religion, if any, isn't attributed to anything I would call "real" Satanism.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
[Here are my comments to your words (in bold), hopefully not offensive again.]

My motivation for being here is to discuss and debate religion so as to keep keen on the matter.

The Afterlife, for those who obtain it, is probably maddening for some but great for others, depending on if living forever, around the living but in spirit form, is fun or torturous not having bodies. But even in spirit form you can "die" again, but then permanently.

You assume quite a bit if you are referring to the Christian heaven many of us not only believe in but are quite certain of. For one, we will have bodies, very much so. For two, to think some might find heaven “maddening” is absurd, IMO, and quite insulting to God. Three, you really are holding out not saying whether you are certain there is an afterlife or not, or why you think some may obtain it (immortality) and why some may not. In other words, your “personal revelations” do not appear to have sold you (or us) on anything much?

Also I should note that "convincing others of the truth" would probably be considered to be trying to convert people, which is against rule 8.

Why do you even bother to make mention of this? It does not cast you in a better or more confident light. How does one “debate religion” as you called it above without the chance that one may consider and possibly become convinced of another’s points of view? And all of a sudden something terrible has taken place? Then I suggest no one read any comments on a religion board if they are afraid they are being violated.

Also the "danger" of my religion, if any, isn't attributed to anything I would call "real" Satanism.

Well, one is left to guess a lot about you. If you choose to remain aloof that is certainly your prerogative, but it does stifle debate or interest.

On the other hand, I see that you signed some “manifesto” or whatever you would call that red and black box with all the satanic vows or themes on 6/27/12. I would not want to begin to speculate what that is all about. But I will say this: there is nothing on this earth worth having if it means sacrificing oneself to another direction in the next life.
 
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jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
[Here are my comments to your words (in bold), hopefully not offensive again.]

You assume quite a bit if you are referring to the Christian heaven many of us not only believe in but are quite certain of. For one, we will have bodies, very much so. For two, to think some might find heaven “maddening” is absurd, IMO, and quite insulting to God. Three, you really are holding out not saying whether you are certain there is an afterlife or not, or why you think some may obtain it (immortality) and why some may not. In other words, your “personal revelations” do not appear to have sold you (or us) on anything much?

Also I should note that "convincing others of the truth" would probably be considered to be trying to convert people, which is against rule 8.

Why do you even bother to make mention of this? It does not cast you in a better or more confident light. How does one “debate religion” as you called it above without the chance that one may consider and possibly become convinced of another’s points of view? And all of a sudden something terrible has taken place? Then I suggest no one read any comments on a religion boDISCALIMER: Real rape is, well, very bad. Rape fantasies are FANTASY, not the real thing, and having a rape fantasy does not mean you actually want to rape someone, according to all the studies I read on it at least.

I'm curious who else might have this, and what you first made of it when you discovered it. I don't have a full-blown fetish for it, but a really strong kink.ard if they are afraid they are being violated.

Also the "danger" of my religion, if any, isn't attributed to anything I would call "real" Satanism.

Well, one is left to guess a lot about you. If you choose to remain aloof that is certainly your prerogative, but it does stifle debate or interest.

On the other hand, I see that you signed some “manifesto” or whatever you would call that red and black box with all the satanic vows or themes on 6/27/12. I would not want to begin to speculate what that is all about. But I will say this: there is nothing on this earth worth having if it means sacrificing oneself to another direction in the next life.

1. I wasn't talking about Heaven, but the surviving souls of physically dead people, residing HERE, on Earth.

2. I'll refrain from that then as it's not my place I guess.

3. It's not a manifesto. Also there is only two "vows" on there that I have done, and one was just basically saying "ok I'm not a Christian anymore and won't ever be again", but even that was to emotionally reinforce that I was intellectually over Christianity. The only true oath I have ever made was that so long as I am loyal to Satan, I shall not "cut the hair from atop my head".

The "Satanic theme" is not actually Satanic. The red stuff is actually marks from a bubble chamber... basically a container filled with liquid hydrogen and electrons fired through, exciting the liquid hydrogen into turning into a gas. The red indicates where the electrons passed through, and is in false-color. This is another example of a bubble chamber: http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/1x6036908/false-colour_bubble_chamber_photo_a138009.jpg

Then ontop of that is a unicursal 5 pointed star, inverted, but with the five points of the pentagon connected with lines that not only make a right-side-up 5 pointed star, but also that penetrate the outer circle. As well all of that is bisected, and I fit the larger star ontop of the circle the electrons made in the middle. Then I slapped the equation for entropy down there. More than anything, it's a mix of a vague sigil and science references, mostly because I'm a pantheist. It's not explicitly Satanic.

The sigil itself represents my path as I see it. The Circle is the Universe, in which my soul, made up of five distinct parts (hence the outer star), can create a greater internal reality that will not only pierce into the Universe, but go outwards from it. That is, I can create a de facto god by making my soul survive not only my physical death, but the eventual heat death of the Universe by separating from The Universe, and therefore, God. One cannot be with God if they remain part of God, as when The Universe dies, that's it, he's folding back on himself.

All the other stats I update regularly, and that date was just the most recent, I basically am recording my magic(k)al experience for people to see. It's mostly just the kind of rituals I have done anyway, and I don't see how white text on black is explicitly Satanic.

Also I've never done anything insane like you seem to potentially think, it's mostly pointing a knife at a symbol while saying a bunch of stuff, and feeling all different inside. Oh, and if you know how to do it, you can come out with some kind of emotional or spiritual transformation. Though cursing your enemies are helping your friends is nice too, but much harder to pull off.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Well, you have a free will in this life to decide what is best for you. I wish you well.

For me personally, from all you just said I really am not comfortable with that path for anyone who is close to me in my world. I would be quite disturbed by it.

The sigil itself represents my path as I see it. The Circle is the Universe, in which my soul, made up of five distinct parts (hence the outer star), can create a greater internal reality that will not only pierce into the Universe, but go outwards from it. That is, I can create a de facto god by making my soul survive not only my physical death, but the eventual heat death of the Universe by separating from The Universe, and therefore, God. One cannot be with God if they remain part of God, as when The Universe dies, that's it, he's folding back on himself.


I would suggest that is a rather esoteric belief system, so deep and complex, that the spirit who wills it surely did not intend it for 99.9% of the people on earth because they could never comprehend its meaning or intent. Consequently, just how important could such a philosophy really be for the benefit of anyone else? God’s message is much simpler than that.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Well, you have a free will in this life to decide what is best for you. I wish you well.

For me personally, from all you just said I really am not comfortable with that path for anyone who is close to me in my world. I would be quite disturbed by it.




I would suggest that is a rather esoteric belief system, so deep and complex, that the spirit who wills it surely did not intend it for 99.9% of the people on earth because they could never comprehend its meaning or intent. Consequently, just how important could such a philosophy really be for the benefit of anyone else? God’s message is much simpler than that.

It's not nearly as complex as it sounds, but it's riddled with so much personifications sometimes I'm not sure what parts are literal or metaphor I will admit.

However the idea is purely for myself, and perhaps many people can't grasp some of the concepts I borrow, not because they are complex in themselves, but because they are so foreign. But this path, despite the temporary pain I sometimes feel walking that final mile to that next horizon, is so worth it.

Xeper, as some might say. (ancient Egyptian word for "to come into being") However I have personally found due to my personal challenges that Xeper is really painful when you leave some emotional and spiritual issues buried for a long time, only to be ripped open to be dealt with for once and for all. Kind of like opening a healed wound to treat the infection inside, but your better off without an infection, even if reopening part of it is necessary.
 
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Tonix

Member
I'm going to be honest, I tried my best to consolidate Christianity with what I know about magick, even ignoring magick as best I could. But Christianity's suffocation of anything spiritual was too much for me to handle.
 
Well I fall into the former Christian category. I likened it to a radiator that got a pinhole leak. I can tell you what I think caused the pinhole. At this time I had actually picked up the bible and started reading from the beginning, for the first time really paying attention to what was said there. I started seeing why Judaism rejects Christ as the messiah, it was all there in black and white if I wanted to actually see. I did. I wanted the truth no matter what that was. My belief in Jesus as God just started dripping away. I made heavy attempts to stop the drip, but there was no stopping it. I also made several heavy attempts to try and force it back, jump-start it. No, it wasn't happening. At first that felt scary, like I was damning myself...oh the residual effects of hearing I would fry if I didn't believe in Jesus. And that God could never hear me if I didn't pray through Jesus. I never knew the Hebrew Bible (OT- a version of this) said different. Now I am incredibly at peace and thankful. Just trying to figure out where I fit in the human designated categories, there seems to be none. I do fall very much in line with Judaism, and have found truth there.
 
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thau

Well-Known Member
Well I fall into the former Christian category. I likened it to a radiator that got a pinhole leak. I can tell you what I think caused the pinhole. At this time I had actually picked up the bible and started reading from the beginning, for the first time really paying attention to what was said there. I started seeing why Judaism rejects Christ as the messiah, it was all there in black and white if I wanted to actually see. I did. I wanted the truth no matter what that was. My belief in Jesus as God just started dripping away. I made heavy attempts to stop the drip, but there was no stopping it. I also made several heavy attempts to try and force it back, jump-start it. No, it wasn't happening. At first that felt scary, like I was damning myself...oh the residual effects of hearing I would fry if I didn't believe in Jesus. And that God could never hear me if I didn't pray through Jesus. I never knew the Hebrew Bible (OT- a version of this) said different. Now I am incredibly at peace and thankful. Just trying to figure out where I fit in the human designated categories, there seems to be none. I do fall very much in line with Judaism, and have found truth there.

Well since you directed this response to my post above, I thought I might say something back. As it is, I am so busy at my job and at home I have hardly been able to spend even a few minutes a week on these boards.

First of all, your subject matter, i.e. Christianity, is far too great in scope to really try to define “it” or the ramifications of being one or not being one in a post or two here. But from what I did read of you, I do not agree with some of your claims or assumptions made. Secondly, I am a Catholic Christian, and bear in mind there are significant theological differences between the teachings of the Catholic Church and those of the various sects of Protestantism.

But for me as a Catholic, in no way do I agree there is a teaching that implies what you said “I would fry if I didn't believe in Jesus.” Nor is it taught “God could never hear me if I didn't pray through Jesus.” So as to what your main objections are with the Catholic teaching or with even a universally accepted teaching of Christianity, that still is a mystery to me, and is apparently the heart of your discontent?

There are some, in my estimation, very specific references to the Jewish messiah in the Old Testament that accurately line up with Jesus Christ and no one else in history, hitherto. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 quickly come to mind. I know there are others including passages in Zechariah and Micah. Some critics suggest that Jesus or his associates arranged for events to unfold in Jesus’ life in order to line up with OT Scripture. I suggest that is absolute lunacy or desperation to make such a claim.

I am guessing you do not believe what is told about Jesus in the New Testament either? If that be so, then how might we expect you to buy into anything His Church might have to say?
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Well since you directed this response to my post above, I thought I might say something back. As it is, I am so busy at my job and at home I have hardly been able to spend even a few minutes a week on these boards.

First of all, your subject matter, i.e. Christianity, is far too great in scope to really try to define “it” or the ramifications of being one or not being one in a post or two here. But from what I did read of you, I do not agree with some of your claims or assumptions made. Secondly, I am a Catholic Christian, and bear in mind there are significant theological differences between the teachings of the Catholic Church and those of the various sects of Protestantism.

But for me as a Catholic, in no way do I agree there is a teaching that implies what you said “I would fry if I didn't believe in Jesus.” Nor is it taught “God could never hear me if I didn't pray through Jesus.” So as to what your main objections are with the Catholic teaching or with even a universally accepted teaching of Christianity, that still is a mystery to me, and is apparently the heart of your discontent?

There are some, in my estimation, very specific references to the Jewish messiah in the Old Testament that accurately line up with Jesus Christ and no one else in history, hitherto. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 quickly come to mind. I know there are others including passages in Zechariah and Micah. Some critics suggest that Jesus or his associates arranged for events to unfold in Jesus’ life in order to line up with OT Scripture. I suggest that is absolute lunacy or desperation to make such a claim.

I am guessing you do not believe what is told about Jesus in the New Testament either? If that be so, then how might we expect you to buy into anything His Church might have to say?

another reason i am an ex-christian is because of the hundreds of different denominations within the christian cult..i mean superstition...i mean religion
 

thau

Well-Known Member
another reason i am an ex-christian is because of the hundreds of different denominations within the christian cult..i mean superstition...i mean religion

Well that's not much of a reason (imo).

Consequently, "wait a second" has chosen to go it alone. "Surely if there is a God above he will not hold me accountable for my choices. I mean... what's so bad about keeping almost all of my money for myself, not really tending to the needs of the most needy since our own life needs so much attention (no that one was not directed at you, it was directed at all of us here in America), what's so bad about enjoying life every day instead of thinking of all this heavy "God stuff," what's so bad about lust, what's so bad about gossip, and so on?"

And yet.... seems just about everyone I talk to who has no time for God thinks they are "a good person" and deserving of heaven if such exists.

(That was the punch line.)
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Well that's not much of a reason (imo).

Consequently, "wait a second" has chosen to go it alone. "Surely if there is a God above he will not hold me accountable for my choices. I mean... what's so bad about keeping almost all of my money for myself, not really tending to the needs of the most needy since our own life needs so much attention (no that one was not directed at you, it was directed at all of us here in America), what's so bad about enjoying life every day instead of thinking of all this heavy "God stuff," what's so bad about lust, what's so bad about gossip, and so on?"

And yet.... seems just about everyone I talk to who has no time for God thinks they are "a good person" and deserving of heaven if such exists.

(That was the punch line.)
Are you suggesting all atheists (or non-Christians) think like that?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I am suggesting that most Americans (including most who call themselves Christians, and most who pay little attention to God like matters, and most atheists) think like that.
I would argue that most Americans don't, since most Americans earn barely enough money to support their families and pay their bills. You make it sound like America is a land composed almost entirely of hedonistic multi-millionaires. It certainly has more of those than most other countries, but I don't think it's fair to judge "most Americans" for not devoting a lot of their time or money to charitable causes when so many are struggling to stay above the poverty line.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I would argue that most Americans don't, since most Americans earn barely enough money to support their families and pay their bills. You make it sound like America is a land composed almost entirely of hedonistic multi-millionaires. It certainly has more of those than most other countries, but I don't think it's fair to judge "most Americans" for not devoting a lot of their time or money to charitable causes when so many are struggling to stay above the poverty line.


This has little to do with expendable income and everything to do with character, attitude, violations of conscience, and choices made each day or hour.

Examples:

My neighbor has a newer car and you observe him or his wife smiling as they drive away happy that they can enjoy this vehicle. You resent them for that, subtly and interiorly, but very present in your being nonetheless. That is a sinful nature which does not require great wealth to possess.

Someone you know who is more highly educated and doing better than you financially is despondent because he was denied a higher position in his company he was hoping for. You, interiorly, are delighted he did not get it because it would make you look even less as “successful” as he, or for other reasons. That is an uncharitable nature.

Your wife needs your attention but instead you choose to go hang with your buddies once again. That is an uncharitable sinful nature.

You can either spend time with your 12 year old son, or visit some lonely friend who is hurting, or make something more pleasant around the house that needs repair, or just lay around once again having a beer and watching trashy TV. Once again, these decisions show charity or lack of charity.

In other words… God is not speaking only of money when it comes to one being generous or selfish.
 
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