Ex Christians

[ImmortalFlame]

This has little to do with expendable income and everything to do with character, attitude, violations of conscience, and choices made each day or hour.

Examples:

My neighbor has a newer car and you observe him or his wife smiling as they drive away happy that they can enjoy this vehicle. You resent them for that, subtly and interiorly, but very present in your being nonetheless. That is a sinful nature which does not require great wealth to possess.

Someone you know who is more highly educated and doing better than you financially is despondent because he was denied a higher position in his company he was hoping for. You, interiorly, are delighted he did not get it because it would make you look even less as “successful” as he, or for other reasons. That is an uncharitable nature.

These two examples really kind of bug me, because they aren't really based on what you do but simply how you feel. Any God that punishes people simply for feeling things, regardless of whether or not they choose to act on them, or finds it acceptable to labour people with a sense of guilt merely for having less than admirable thoughts is most definitely not a God deserving of worship.

Your wife needs your attention but instead you choose to go hang with your buddies once again. That is an uncharitable sinful nature.

Wouldn't it also be selfish for the wife to expect attention when her husband wants to go out with his friends? Where do we draw the line at who is selfish and who isn't in this scenario?

You can either spend time with your 12 year old son, or visit some lonely friend who is hurting, or make something more pleasant around the house that needs repair, or just lay around once again having a beer and watching trashy TV. Once again, these decisions show charity or lack of charity.

And yet each decision has negative consequences which could very easily be seen as "selfish" from almost any perspective. You seem to be viewing this in a very simple, black-and-white manner.

 

[thau]

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These two examples really kind of bug me, because they aren't really based on what you do but simply how you feel. Any God that punishes people simply for feeling things, regardless of whether or not they choose to act on them, or finds it acceptable to labour people with a sense of guilt merely for having less than admirable thoughts is most definitely not a God deserving of worship.


Wouldn't it also be selfish for the wife to expect attention when her husband wants to go out with his friends? Where do we draw the line at who is selfish and who isn't in this scenario?


And yet each decision has negative consequences which could very easily be seen as "selfish" from almost any perspective. You seem to be viewing this in a very simple, black-and-white manner.

Well let's be fair, my examples and words were quickly assembled here. Are you suggesting that as long as a man is very poor amongst the society in which he lives, that he cannot be judged as uncharitable? That his choices of what he does with his time and his life cannot be just as consequential to his soul as that of a very wealthy person? Are you suggesting that God's words are always directed at a select few and not the many? Or what are you trying to say?

I might add that our thoughts are a reflection of our character and also our desires. For example: Jesus said if a married man lust in his heart to be with a woman he sets his eyes on not his own, he has already committed adultery. What did he mean by that? I think he meant that if the situation ever presented itself where the man could take advantage of that woman he would, then that is adultery, and that is what his mind and soul is scheming. Not unlike if the pauper had a million dollars this pauper already has resigned himself to how selfishly he would use such wealth, then that man has also convicted himself in such a way.

The example of the wife and friends implied a pattern already established by the selfish husband who thinks only of his own desires and pleasures.

 

[Curious George]

I am suggesting that most Americans (including most who call themselves Christians, and most who pay little attention to God like matters, and most atheists) think like that.

Not that I would entirely disagree that most American's, both north and south American's think like this. But, I question your readiness to include "American's" and not Asians Europeans, Africans and Australians in the mix.

 

[thau]

Not that I would entirely disagree that most American's, both north and south American's think like this. But, I question your readiness to include "American's" and not Asians Europeans, Africans and Australians in the mix.

I am quite ready to go that far if that satisfy you. I am firmly in the mix myself, I admit.

But focusing on "Americans" is hardly the point, agreed?

 

[Curious George]

So, you are suggesting most people have selfish tendencies? I would agree

 

[Curious George]

I would think very few people count themselves as "bad" people regardless of how they behave. Our mind has a tendency to function this way. But I think most people are also charitable in many regards also. I would suggest that empathy is a strong emotion which can not be discounted simply because much of our behavior is egocentric.

 

[waitasec]

Well that's not much of a reason (imo).

well it is for me.
if a tree can speak for itself...
why can't god? relying on fallible "prophets" seems to be a fallible system.

 

[waitasec]

This has little to do with expendable income and everything to do with character, attitude, violations of conscience, and choices made each day or hour.

so then most catholics are pedophiles?


please..what can a believer do that a non believer can't?

 

[waitasec]

Examples:[/FONT]

My neighbor has a newer car and you observe him or his wife smiling as they drive away happy that they can enjoy this vehicle. You resent them for that, subtly and interiorly, but very present in your being nonetheless. That is a sinful nature which does not require great wealth to possess.

bzzzt wrong try again....

Someone you know who is more highly educated and doing better than you financially is despondent because he was denied a higher position in his company he was hoping for. You, interiorly, are delighted he did not get it because it would make you look even less as “successful” as he, or for other reasons. That is an uncharitable nature.

bzzzzzt wrong try again....

Your wife needs your attention but instead you choose to go hang with your buddies once again. That is an uncharitable sinful nature.

bzzzzzzt wrong try again...

You can either spend time with your 12 year old son, or visit some lonely friend who is hurting, or make something more pleasant around the house that needs repair, or just lay around once again having a beer and watching trashy TV. Once again, these decisions show charity or lack of charity.

bzzzzzzzzt wrong try again

In other words… God is not speaking only of money when it comes to one being generous or selfish.

proclaiming to be favored by god is selfish

 

[thau]

so then most catholics are pedophiles?

Are we talking in the same language???

please..what can a believer do that a non believer can't?

Nothing, to answer it in a general sense.

What does a true believer do that a non-believer does not? Repent, for one, I suppose? Pray intently and regularly, for two. Feel great remorse and try again and again to follow God's commands.

 

[waitasec]

I am quite ready to go that far if that satisfy you. I am firmly in the mix myself, I admit.

But focusing on "Americans" is hardly the point, agreed?

why did you bring up americans?

 

[waitasec]

Well let's be fair, my examples and words were quickly assembled here.

then be more careful. "be perfect" as jesus would say.

 

[Curious George]

What does a true believer do that a non-believer does not? Repent, for one, I suppose?

Repent:
to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often followed by of ): He repented after his thoughtless act.

anyone with any belief system can repent.

 

[waitasec]

Are we talking in the same language???

i am showing how wide your brush stroke is...duh.

Nothing, to answer it in a general sense.

What does a true believer do that a non-believer does not? Repent, for one, I suppose?

really? so an unbeliever has no sense of remorse?
:areyoucra

Pray intently and regularly, for two.

really? so unbelievers aren't capable of hoping?

Feel great remorse and try again and again to follow God's commands.

hmmm...so are you suggesting that unbelievers have no sense of
remorse and are completely unaware of their integrity?

are we speaking the same language?

 

[waitasec]

Nothing, to answer it in a general sense.

right. because according to your holy book...
faith is what saves you...not works.

i wonder what you are boasting about....

 

[Nakosis]

Faith should equal veneration.
Whether your experiences in life lead one to trust the teachings of Jesus.
I think Jesus ask to not invest in earthly things like possessions and earthly authority/power. Kind of counter intuitive. Basically give up the material things which is normally seen as making someone successful.

A little faith is what Jesus taught is what is asked for. Not faith is some traditional doctrine of the sacrifice of Jesus paying for one's sin. That is the doctrine that seems most morally objectionable to many non-Christians.

The whole idea of God needing justice. God being unable to forgive without some form of retribution makes God imperfect. The doctrine of sin sacrifice is on it's surface, barbaric. Yet we are told that we have to believe in this barbaric practice in order to be saved.

The idea of God needing animal/human sacrifice to be appeased... That's what we are ask to have faith in? I'm just not buying it.

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Well since you directed this response to my post above, I thought I might say something back. As it is, I am so busy at my job and at home I have hardly been able to spend even a few minutes a week on these boards.

First of all, your subject matter, i.e. Christianity, is far too great in scope to really try to define “it” or the ramifications of being one or not being one in a post or two here. But from what I did read of you, I do not agree with some of your claims or assumptions made. Secondly, I am a Catholic Christian, and bear in mind there are significant theological differences between the teachings of the Catholic Church and those of the various sects of Protestantism.

But for me as a Catholic, in no way do I agree there is a teaching that implies what you said “I would fry if I didn't believe in Jesus.” Nor is it taught “God could never hear me if I didn't pray through Jesus.” So as to what your main objections are with the Catholic teaching or with even a universally accepted teaching of Christianity, that still is a mystery to me, and is apparently the heart of your discontent?

There are some, in my estimation, very specific references to the Jewish messiah in the Old Testament that accurately line up with Jesus Christ and no one else in history, hitherto. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 quickly come to mind. I know there are others including passages in Zechariah and Micah. Some critics suggest that Jesus or his associates arranged for events to unfold in Jesus’ life in order to line up with OT Scripture. I suggest that is absolute lunacy or desperation to make such a claim.

I am guessing you do not believe what is told about Jesus in the New Testament either? If that be so, then how might we expect you to buy into anything His Church might have to say?

Hello, no, I'm sorry, I wasn't addressing your post, I do not believe I even read it. I was addressing the OP's post about ex-Christians, which I fall into that category.

Well I define Christianity as being a follower of Christ, believing he died on the cross and resurrected, died for human kind's sins. A definition something like that. I know very little about the Catholic faith, so I cannot converse with you regarding that.
I have had a couple catholics online tell me that Jews are going to 'roast'. While I may not be Jewish in the Orthodox definition, my mother is Jewish and so they saw fit to tell me I am going to 'fry' in other words, if I choose to convert or follow Judaism. I recall many times being told at church services that if we do not accept 'Jesus' that we are going to hell.

Many times we are told that G-d will not hear our prayers if we do not 'pray through Jesus'. I believed all this until I picked up the bible and actually starting paying attention to what I was reading.

I have spent considerable time going through many of the verses that supposedly 'prove Jesus' with a completely open mind. I have found they do not line up. Prior to all this in my life, I never questioned those things, I assumed the preacher was giving me the straight scoop and the whole story.

I am sorry, I do not understand the purpose of your post. I no longer buy into anything the 'church' has to say.

thank you, Simone

 

[jasonwill2]

:spit:
oh the irony...


cheap entertainment...

Thank God, I thought no one else noticed how he assumed so much about Satanism then turned around and said that.

I'm going to be honest, I tried my best to consolidate Christianity with what I know about magick, even ignoring magick as best I could. But Christianity's suffocation of anything spiritual was too much for me to handle.

You know, I had a similar thought this morning about prayer. It seems to me that prayer could actually just be a form of meditation, but today most people use it as a watered down form of communication. The only time I communicate with Satan per se is furring a ritual in which I'm really just talking to the Satanic part of my mind (though I think once or twice he spoke through me, to me). Other times I find myself repeating a mantra, and I think that perhaps prayer came out of a modification of mantras. Look how some churches have prayer books with prayers they recite. Doesn't that remind you of something in ritual magick? Like mantras and perhaps invocations?

Well that's not much of a reason (imo).

Consequently, "wait a second" has chosen to go it alone. "Surely if there is a God above he will not hold me accountable for my choices. I mean... what's so bad about keeping almost all of my money for myself, not really tending to the needs of the most needy since our own life needs so much attention (no that one was not directed at you, it was directed at all of us here in America), what's so bad about enjoying life every day instead of thinking of all this heavy "God stuff," what's so bad about lust, what's so bad about gossip, and so on?"

And yet.... seems just about everyone I talk to who has no time for God thinks they are "a good person" and deserving of heaven if such exists.

(That was the punch line.)

Who says that God/Satan doesn't hold us accountable for our actions? I think that if someone is a jerk, that by virtue of people's nature someone will get even with them. We all have to live with the consequences of our actions, and I think those consequences are the way that we are held accountable.

So, you are suggesting most people have selfish tendencies? I would agree

I would agree with both of you. The thing I like about my newer religion is that it realizes that people have these kinds of tendencies, and instead of condemning them, it actually utilizes them more pragmatically for a better life overall. I think that if most people would realize that there wasn't anything wrong with these desires, they could control them better and utilize those desires when appropriate and hold them back when it is not.

 

[Curious George]

I would agree with both of you. The thing I like about my newer religion is that it realizes that people have these kinds of tendencies, and instead of condemning them, it actually utilizes them more pragmatically for a better life overall. I think that if most people would realize that there wasn't anything wrong with these desires, they could control them better and utilize those desires when appropriate and hold them back when it is not.

I would like to think that you are right, though I am not so sure I agree. I do not know that we always recognize when it is "appropriate" or not.

 

[jasonwill2]

I would like to think that you are right, though I am not so sure I agree. I do not know that we always recognize when it is "appropriate" or not.

Realizing when we should or should not do something, is probably the whole point of maturity and personal growth. But sometimes people are too lazy to try and push themselves in that kind of emotional way to gain self-awareness and growth. It can be hard, espeically if your someone like me with a number of personal issues to work through

Wouldn't trade my religion for anything though, that growth is about half of my religion, but with a lot of more spiritual and mystical stuff too. It's not just emotional growth and and all that mundane stuff, but they are related in many ways as the spiritual and emotional resides in the same person.