Ex Christians

[9Westy9]

I see you have lost none of your tenacity.

Just trying to understand

It is not like it is a supernatural experience. I do not believe in ghosts. Demons yes, but the felt like part would be the opposite.

So then, what exactly is the "God showing up in the spiritual form of Christ and giving you this life altering, never again the same, momentous experience gained by faith in what the bible claims." ?

If you claim to have had this experience why all the questions? I think I smell an ineffective trap in the near future.

I never claimed to have that experience. I only claimed to have had the experiences you listed: "The guilt of many years of built up sin is removed, depression associated with loss is removed or lessened, the chains of habitual sins are broken, the Holy Sprit comes to live in our heart, the fear of death is removed or lessened, the concience is quickened"

Italics for the ones that don't seem observable or testable (at least easily)

 

[1robin]

Just trying to understand

I will reserve judgement.

So then, what exactly is the "God showing up in the spiritual form of Christ and giving you this life altering, never again the same, momentous experience gained by faith in what the bible claims." ?

What? Every single aspect of that sentence is either directly stated in the bible or is obviously implied. I must have missed something.

I never claimed to have that experience. I only claimed to have had the experiences you listed: "The guilt of many years of built up sin is removed, depression associated with loss is removed or lessened, the chains of habitual sins are broken, the Holy Sprit comes to live in our heart, the fear of death is removed or lessened, the concience is quickened"

THe others are not possible without the italics. However unlike critics I admit I have no access to your experience and will refrain from giving my unfounded opinion concerning your experience as fact. I am am out but peace to you and I will talk at you later.

 

[9Westy9]

I will reserve judgement.

I appreciate it

What? Every single aspect of that sentence is either directly stated in the bible or is obviously implied. I must have missed something.

So Christians literally have some sort of vision of god where he gives them some "experience" (not sure what this experience is) that changes their life?

The others are not possible without the italics. However unlike critics I admit I have no access to your experience and will refrain from giving my unfounded opinion concerning your experience as fact.

I disagree. When I "became a Christian" I felt all of the non-italic statements. So does that mean I also must have had the italic experiences as well?

I am am out but peace to you and I will talk at you later.

Thanks. Look forward to your reply

 

[jasonwill2]

I was born, baptized, and raised Roman Catholic. The family believed in God, but we stopped going to church when I was in elementary school.

Fast forward to high school. I met a friend whom I told I was gay, and she was fine with it. She invited me to church. I went. I became a Pentacostal in to appease her idea that I could fight my homosexuality. One day, the pastor of the church invited me to the front and said that I needed help in fighting the demons that were plaguing me. I looked over at her and knew that she was the problem.

I did not leave the church and my faith because of her. Rather, while in college I discovered Robert Green Ingersoll. It was his writings that made me think and realize how religion is merely a con.

Sounds like a typical Pentecostal thing to do, they think that a lot of ills and perceived ills are caused by literal demons. I'm surprised though that he took you to the front of the Church, even the ones I knew, AFAIK wouldn't be that audacious to put someone on the spot like that without asking them prior, considering that the so-called problem was something that would be perceived as highly private.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

I finally read the whole thing from page one and saw what a monster the christian god is or was. I believe it to be the machination of sick men, bent on control and power. The greed it instills and the arrogance it produces. I don't hate christians or the idea of Jesus, I just can't defend any of the rest nor would I want to.

 

[crazyrussian]

I stopped claiming to be a christian when I realized that Christians claim Jesus did not come according to the flesh. See Matthew chapter one.

The daniel 70 weeks prophecy talks of when Messiah the prince would come and it does not point to the birth of an infant according to the spirit. The birth of Messiah the prince would have occured at the baptism of Jesus making him firstborn from the dead at that time and truely messiah taking light of truth to Both Jews and Gentiles.

The testimony found in Matt and Luke came from the below testimony. The below ancient text, predates the 4 Roman cannon combined based on text Critisism. What is more amazing about the below testimony is that it fulfills over 9 OT prophecies where the current lie found in Matthew only fulfills a biased mistralation of Isaiah 7.

AND in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God, unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. Now Joseph was a just and rational Mind, and he was skilled in all manner of work in wood and in stone. And Mary was a tender and discerning Soul, and she wrought veils for the temple. And they were both pure before God; and of them both was Jesu-Maria who is called the Christ. And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, Mary, thou that art highly favored, for the Mother of God is with thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed be the fruit of thy womb. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God and, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb and bring forth a child, and He shall be great and shalt be called a Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her The Holy Spirit shall come upon Joseph thy Spouse, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, O Mary, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Christ, the Child of God, and his Name on earth shalt be called Jesu-Maria, for he shall save the people from their sins, whosoever shall repent and obey his Law. Therefore ye shall eat no flesh, nor drink strong drink, for the child shall be consecrated unto God from its mother's womb, and neither flesh nor strong drink shall he take, nor shall razor touch his head. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God no thing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And in the same day the angel Gabriel appeared unto Joseph in a dream and said unto him, Hail, Joseph, thou that art highly favored, for the Fatherhood of God is with thee. Blessed art thou among men and blessed be the fruit of thy loins. And as Joseph thought upon these words he was troubled, and the angel of the Lord said unto him, Fear not, Joseph, thou Son of David, for thou hast found favor with God, and behold thou shalt beget a child, and thou shalt call his name Jesu-Maria for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was written in the prophets saying, Behold a Maiden shall conceive and be with child and shall bring forth a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God Within Us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel had bidden him, and went in unto Mary, his espoused bride, and she conceived in her womb the Holy One.

This portion of ancient text was taken from the Gospel of the holy 12 which the 4 bible gospels originated from. Most christians attempt to claim the G-12 text to be a 19th century forgery, but are easily proven incorrect by text critisim with other ancient texts which were not well known or even known to exist in the 1877 time period that the G-12 text was translated. It's not a perfect Gospel, but it does preserve the teachings of Jesus more clearly and complete than the 4 bible gospels combined.

You may find it to be a facinating read should you take the time to check it out!.

Todd

 

[1robin]

I appreciate it

I appreciate the appreciation.

So Christians literally have some sort of vision of god where he gives them some "experience" (not sure what this experience is) that changes their life?

100% correct. I am not sure if it is offically defined as a vision. I did not see anything, but imagine many have. Paul for one. The apostles in the upper room, etc... I have given you an admittedly very incomplete and crude description of it, why are you still claiming you do not know what it is? Look at Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John.

I disagree. When I "became a Christian" I felt all of the non-italic statements. So does that mean I also must have had the italic experiences as well?

I believe all the italics claims were descriptions of the mechanics, so to speak of the experience. For example the Holy Sprit is the power behind the event. There is no event unless he performs it. That experience is not gained without faith in what Christ did on cavalry. When someone says they got it with out faith, I know they are confused or just ignorant of what I meant but unlike critics, civility means I can't claim to know that. Jesus said if anyone tries to enter the pasture without goingthrough him they are considered robbers and thieves and will pay the price. That means if anyone claims they are in the pasture (kingdom of God) but didn't get there through Christ they are not telling the truth.

Thanks. Look forward to your reply

You seem to keep oscillating between claiming to have been born again and being confused by the issue. Which is it?

 

[RedJamaX]

So I've read a couple of posts about people claiming to be "ex christians" and I'm curious as to what they mean exactly. If you are an ex-christain were you in a relationship with Jesus Christ and decided you wanted the relationship to end? Was it that the belief of christiantity stopped making sense or something else entirely? Please let me know.

I suppose, in the respect of how you phrase your question, I was never a Christian at all... I went to church with my parents regularly, every other weekend on average, until I was 14 years old, then on and off again for the next 10 years. I "accepted Jesus as my savior" when I was 12 years old... by that, I mean, I went through the motions.

I was highly uncomfortable throughout the entire process for two reasons... One, I simply didn't believe the things I had been taught in church... (not the moral teachings, but "God created the universe", "The Great Flood", etc etc), and the process had a very cult-like feel to it. I was encouraged by a group of my peers, who were kids two to three years older than myself. They re-enforced that I was making the right choice in my life.. then I followed the youth pastor to the back of a hallway tsk: stop it!, I know what you're thinking :no, and there we kneeled on the floor and he placed his hand on my head as he read scripture and I recited as I was instructed. The entire process was uncomfortable, and to be honest, later in my life I realized that I attempted to make my self believe, and went through that process for my Mom...

So, I tried to believe, but my logical mind never allowed me to buy in to the teachings that were being fed to me. If they had come out and blatantly let it be known that the Stories in the Bible were just that, Stories used for teaching principles, then I would probably be a Christian today. But that's not how the Bible is delivered... It is delivered as historical truth... "When God created the earth", "When Jesus said", "When the Global Flood killed the wicked", "When Moses came down from the mountain"... so on and so forth.

 

[9Westy9]

100% correct. I am not sure if it is offically defined as a vision. I did not see anything, but imagine many have. Paul for one. The apostles in the upper room, etc... I have given you an admittedly very incomplete and crude description of it, why are you still claiming you do not know what it is? Look at Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John.

So you're not a born again Christian either?

I believe all the italics claims were descriptions of the mechanics, so to speak of the experience. For example the Holy Sprit is the power behind the event. There is no event unless he performs it. That experience is not gained without faith in what Christ did on cavalry. When someone says they got it with out faith, I know they are confused or just ignorant of what I meant but unlike critics, civility means I can't claim to know that. Jesus said if anyone tries to enter the pasture without goingthrough him they are considered robbers and thieves and will pay the price. That means if anyone claims they are in the pasture (kingdom of God) but didn't get there through Christ they are not telling the truth.

I'll take that as a yes

You seem to keep oscillating between claiming to have been born again and being confused by the issue. Which is it?

Wow, very confrontational today I see. I became "born again" 8 years ago. I have since left the faith.

 

[1robin]

So you're not a born again Christian either?

I do not believe you actually consider this a meaningfull statement after talking with me that much. I said salvation experiences have a common core but they also have some things that differ from one event to the next. For example the apostles had tongues of fire flying around, some speak in tongues, some like me had a heightened sence of relief that is beyond words, and an absolute certainty concerning things that had confused me for 27 years. I am a Navy vet and have always cussed like a sailor and thought God hating words was extremely stupid, the day after I was saved I could not even bear to hear cursing. There is no mention of a vision in John that I gave you. I have never heard any claim that visions are part of the core experience.

I'll take that as a yes

Yes certain things are dependant on other things. No Jesus no experience, no spirit no experience, no repentance no experience, no faith no experience, etc..... If any one claims to have gotten the latter without the former then they are claiming a biblical impossability.

Wow, very confrontational today I see. I became "born again" 8 years ago. I have since left the faith.

Not really, I did notice that statement I made was rather blunt but I could not think of a better way to say it. What exactly do you mean left the faith? Take my doctors example with the faith in medice giving you proof inna cure and then rejecting doctors. Can you explain it with these metaphors? Please do not confuse brevity with sarcasm.

 

[waitasec]

"biblical impossibilities" are possible in the real world.

 

[9Westy9]

I do not believe you actually consider this a meaningfull statement after talking with me that much. I said salvation experiences have a common core but they also have some things that differ from one event to the next. For example the apostles had tongues of fire flying around, some speak in tongues, some like me had a heightened sence of relief that is beyond words, and an absolute certainty concerning things that had confused me for 27 years. I am a Navy vet and have always cussed like a sailor and thought God hating words was extremely stupid, the day after I was saved I could not even bear to hear cursing. There is no mention of a vision in John that I gave you. I have never heard any claim that visions are part of the core experience.

Seems very vague. I'm just going to go ahead and say yes, I had some form of "experience" that you are talking about

Yes certain things are dependant on other things. No Jesus no experience, no spirit no experience, no repentance no experience, no faith no experience, etc..... If any one claims to have gotten the latter without the former then they are claiming a biblical impossability.

So I was a Christian. Good to know.

Not really, I did notice that statement I made was rather blunt but I could not think of a better way to say it. What exactly do you mean left the faith? Take my doctors example with the faith in medice giving you proof inna cure and then rejecting doctors. Can you explain it with these metaphors? Please do not confuse brevity with sarcasm.

It's like the doctors gave you this medicine but the medicine wasn't what made you better.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

"biblical impossibilities" are possible in the real world.

Prove it...

 

[waitasec]

Prove it...

the many many different experiences one has with their emotions and POV

one can not say to the other...'you were not saved if you haven't experienced what i have experienced'
since the experience laid out in the bible for a born again experience, is convoluted and ambiguous.

anyone can experience peace, a transformation, an enlightenment
focus, health, prosperity, without the born again experience, biblically speaking of course...

sorry to rain on your parade of lofty thoughts...

 

[bigjimslade1000]

the many many different experiences one has with their emotions and POV

one can not say to the other...'you were not saved if you haven't experienced what i have experienced'
since the experience laid out in the bible for a born again experience, is convoluted and ambiguous.

anyone can experience peace, a transformation, an enlightenment
focus, health, prosperity, without the born again experience, biblically speaking of course...

sorry to rain on your parade of lofty thoughts...

I"m not a christian and experience is nil if it can't be proven. In order to prove something, you have to have physical and testable evidence, otherwise it's just an experience. This to say that experience is secondhand in nature and is only a purported truth of one's own mind or condition.

 

[1robin]

Seems very vague. I'm just going to go ahead and say yes, I had some form of "experience" that you are talking about



So I was a Christian. Good to know.

This is what I meant. These two statements are very shaky but are aiming in the same direction. But....

It's like the doctors gave you this medicine but the medicine wasn't what made you better.

This one seems to be in another direction. This situation you describe is inconsistent with the experience. If like me you were "sick" for 27 years and you kept being told to take this pill, but you rejected them until one day you saw some others that had been sick but had taken the pill and gotten better. You read up on the drug and decided it was for real and then you took it and a hour later you were well. To then claim that the drug did not help but something else did, and you now think doctors do not exist, nor the literature you read was correct, is inconsistent . Whatever the truth of your case is, either it or your desription of it is very strange.

 

[1robin]

I"m not a christian and experience is nil if it can't be proven.

This is nonsence. Have you experienced abiogenesis? Can you prove the experience of astetic value? Can you prove that reality was not created 5 minutes ago with the appearance of age? You see your views are based on just as much faith and sometimes more than mine is. The difference is I admit it and you try to act like that is not the case. Empirical proof is only effective for a small section of reality and can't be relied on in a large proportion of what we all believe in. The salvation experience in Christianity was designed to be proof for the individual that has it and not for any one else that does not have faith. The bible demands faith which rules out proof. If you then arbitrarily decide you must have proof even though this is a double standard in that many things in your life are taken on faith then you will be dissapointed. While not reaching the level of proof the bible meets every modern standard of law and history and is more than enough for faith.

In order to prove something, you have to have physical and testable evidence, otherwise it's just an experience.

These double standards are so obvious. I never offered proof anyway. The bible exceeds every other work of antiquity in every standard used to claim that Ceaser, Plato, Xerxes, or Aristotle, etc.. were real figures of history.

This to say that experience is secondhand in nature and is only a purported truth of one's own mind or condition.

There is some truth to that, but there are many things you left out that make the experience much more valuable as evidence than you claim. The universal nature of the core experience, the universal methods and conditions that produce the experience, and the textual description of it for comparison, etc.. are factors that make it a reliable experience. The same may be said about many things in other areas claimed as facts.

 

[waitasec]

I"m not a christian and experience is nil if it can't be proven.

ok, i see.

to whom? the person with the experience or to the person that is enquiring about it?

In order to prove something, you have to have physical and testable evidence, otherwise it's just an experience.
This to say that experience is secondhand in nature and is only a purported truth of one's own mind or condition.

agreed...which is why biblical impossibilities are possible in the real world

 

[bigjimslade1000]

@waitasec In the mind of the observer... If it can't be observed by a number of people in a controlled environment or to a greater mass, than just a few people agreeing with each other... It probably isn't true. Joseph Smith for instance, was a proven liar. And what of the great disappointment? It doesn't add up as truth for me, especially when the track record is so inconsistent with observable reality. It isn't confined to just christianity but I like using christianity as an example. It's easier when you're more familiar with the people.

 

[1robin]

@waitasec In the mind of the observer... If it can't be observed by a number of people in a controlled environment or to a greater mass, than just a few people agreeing with each other... It probably isn't true. Joseph Smith for instance, was a proven liar. And what of the great disappointment? It doesn't add up as truth for me, especially when the track record is so inconsistent with observable reality. It isn't confined to just christianity but I like using christianity as an example. It's easier when you're more familiar with the people.

Comparing whatever Joseph Smith, the adulterer, and polygamist that was run out of town after town said to a few gullable people is in no way comparable to the experience that unites 1 out of every 3 people on earth. The fact that the bible has endured more incessant attacks, withering scrutiny, and persecution and yet has buried every critic to remain the most respected religion after two thousands years is miraculous. You claim it can be shown false. Pick your worst example and lets dig into it. (outside of it's .5% - 5% known scribal errors)