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Exodus Archeology Evidence part 2 updated

Mrpp

New Member
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt

The Brooklyn Papyrus; From the earlier Middle Kingdom (13th Dynasty- (c. 2000–c. 1600 B.C.E.) there is evidence of Semitic settlements all across the northeast Nile Delta. The Brooklyn Papyrus contains a list of the names of 95 slaves. 70% of the names are Hebrew, including Asher and Issachar. 10 of the names have direct links to other passages in the Bible. The majority of whom were Semitic. Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem. 2 Kings 15:14

On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.

• Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

The City of Avaris was originally founded by Amenemhat I on the eastern branch of the Nile in the Delta.[12] Its close proximity to Asia made it a popular town for Asiatic immigrants. Many of these immigrants were from Judea and they were culturally Egyptianized, using Egyptian pottery, but also retained many aspects of their own culture, as can be seen from the various Asiatic burials including weapons of Syro-Judean origin. One palatial district appears to have been abandoned as a result of an epidemic during the 13th dynasty.[13]

In the 18th century BC, the Hyksos conquered Lower Egypt and set up Avaris as their capital. Kamose, the last pharaoh of the Seventeenth Dynasty, besieged Avaris but was unable to defeat the Hyksos there. A few decades later, Ahmose I captured Avaris and overran the Hyksos. Canaanite-style artifacts dated to the Tuthmosid or New Kingdom period suggest that a large part of the city's Semitic population remained in residence following its reconquest by the Egyptians. NOTE: Both Ramesses and Avaris were located in the land of Goshen, mentioned in the Bible as having been given by Pharaoh to the Israelites.

Settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land. Let them settle in the land of Goshen…

Genesis 47.6 (ESV)

All of us (or, at least, most of us) are familiar with the story of Joseph, yes? Well, in Egypt there is a river diversionary which is called “Bahr Yussef” which dates back to about 1800 BC. It is a tributary river created around 1800 BC with a pooling area at the end of it, specifically well designed for farming. Bahr Yussef translates to “River of Joseph” in English.[1]

Now I hear critics thinking “so what?” There’s a river named after a biblical character. However, this gets more interesting. There’s an archeological site in Egypt named Avaris. There we have found a house that was built in the early Semite style of house building (very different from Egyptian style houses), which was later expanded upon to be built like an Egyptian palace, similar to those built by leaders of districts in ancient Egypt.[2]

Going deeper into this, there were 11 Semite tombs and 1 Egyptian pyramid style tomb (saved for the Egyptian elites) found on the premises. The Egyptian tomb attracts the most attention because there was no remains left in it (which matches the request of Joseph/Jacob for his final resting place to be in Israel), except for a state of a man with a yellow face (to indicate a foreigner), the hairstyle of Semites at the time, and a coat with lots of colors (not typical at the time in Egypt).[3]

6 Explains Problems of egypt.
Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “Nothing strikes us as more extraordinary than the condition of injury and confusion in which the most important buildings of Egypt seem to have remained,” Petrie wrote. “The most imposing works stood amidst half-ruined and unfinished halls for a whole reign; other parts were walled off to hide offensive memorials; other structures were either incomplete or half-ruined” (ibid). (Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).

But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.


Common objections debunked
-Habiru did conquer Lebanon and Israel didn't. I never said all Habiru were Israelits but that those Israelits who attacked those specifically cities at this time frame were Habiru. Habiru was social term used for nomads, bandits and outcast which fits to definition of Israelits from that time frame. Some of Habiru were also hitties. We know it from later Egyptians conquest.
-Wouldn't later conquest of Israel debunked conquest. Well no it was focused on Hitties and recapture cities while Israelits were nomadic society that mostly was living outside city. + Egyptians would often lying about their victories and twist truth.
-Pithom and Ramses was build later so Exodus didn't happened.But what about this biblical reference to “Raamses”—how to explain it? Fifteenth-century proponents identify it as a later scribal edit known as an “anachronism”—a more familiar, later term used for a more obscure, earlier name (for example, our common anachronistic use of the term “France” when describing ancient “Gaul”). Such a scribal edit could conceivably have been accomplished by the Prophet Samuel (who lived at the end of the Ramesside period)—an individual traditionally ascribed to part of the early compilation of the biblical texts (particularly Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel), which put an emphasis on place-names as they are “to this day.”
-Many archeologists disaggrees with Exodus being historical. Opinions are not facts. Evidences are facts and we should look at the evidence instead of simply relaying on opinion. It was consensus that Jesus and king David didn't exsisted but with new discovery historians changed their minds. Biblical literalism is actually growing.
Sources
-https://armstronginstitute.org/881-the-amarna-letters-proof-of-israels-invasion-of-canaan
-https://www.biblehistory.net/joshua.html
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
-https://biblearchaeology.org/research/conquest-of-canaan/3865-jericho-does-the-evidence-disprove-or-prove-the-bible
-https://nypost.com/2021/10/02/archaeologist-claims-mount-sinai-found-in-saudi-arabia/
-https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-excavations-of-Avaris-Egypt-not-accepted-as-evidence-for-the-biblical-period-of-Joseph-to-the-Exodus
-https://theconversation.com/the-history-of-israel-and-palestine-alternative-names-competing-claims-163156
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aton
-https://armstronginstitute.org/882-who-was-the-pharaoh-of-the-exodus
 

Tamino

Active Member
5 Slaves in egypt

The Brooklyn Papyrus; From the earlier Middle Kingdom (13th Dynasty- (c. 2000–c. 1600 B.C.E.) there is evidence of Semitic settlements all across the northeast Nile Delta. The Brooklyn Papyrus contains a list of the names of 95 slaves. 70% of the names are Hebrew, including Asher and Issachar. 10 of the names have direct links to other passages in the Bible. The majority of whom were Semitic. Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem. 2 Kings 15:14
I'm fine with this evidence. Settlers, migrant workers and servants of Semitic origin exist in Egypt already in the Middle Kingdom - yes, I think there's a lot of finds pointing to this.
On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.
Yes, but that is 18th Dynasty and it contradicts the bible.
Per the Torah, the tribes came into Egypt peacefully and multiplied there. You are equating this with 13th dynasty Semitic activity in Egypt -fine. But now you are pointing out a new bunch of prisoners being brought by force in the 18th dyn. The Bible speaks of the Pharao trying to contain the number of Hebrews in the decades before Exodus, not bringing in tens of thousands more...
• Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.
You're aware that no pyramids were built in the 18th Dynasty, aren't you??
In the 18th century BC, the Hyksos conquered Lower Egypt and set up Avaris as their capital. Kamose, the last pharaoh of the Seventeenth Dynasty, besieged Avaris but was unable to defeat the Hyksos there. A few decades later, Ahmose I captured Avaris and overran the Hyksos. Canaanite-style artifacts dated to the Tuthmosid or New Kingdom period suggest that a large part of the city's Semitic population remained in residence following its reconquest by the Egyptians. NOTE: Both Ramesses and Avaris were located in the land of Goshen, mentioned in the Bible as having been given by Pharaoh to the Israelites.

Settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land. Let them settle in the land of Goshen…

Genesis 47.6 (ESV)
As I pointed out before: the story of the Hyksos rule and defeat is well attested in history, but it's not in the Torah. Why not? Why not boast about ruling the great country of Egypt?
, in Egypt there is a river diversionary which is called “Bahr Yussef” which dates back to about 1800 BC. It is a tributary river created around 1800 BC with a pooling area at the end of it, specifically well designed for farming. Bahr Yussef translates to “River of Joseph” in English.[1]

Now I hear critics thinking “so what?” There’s a river named after a biblical character.
Yes. Exactly my thoughts.
However, this gets more interesting. There’s an archeological site in Egypt named Avaris.
...far removed from Bahr Yussuf, but okay...
The Egyptian tomb attracts the most attention because there was no remains left in it (which matches the request of Joseph/Jacob for his final resting place to be in Israel), except for a state of a man with a yellow face (to indicate a foreigner), the hairstyle of Semites at the time, and a coat with lots of colors (not typical at the time in Egypt).[3]
Did you notice the 100 year gap between irrigation projects around Bahr Yussuf around 1800 and the Avaris tomb around 1700?
...your Joseph must be one of these miraculously long-lived people, then?
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “
I mentioned in the other thread that Petrie is more than a century out of date, yes? Egyptology has progressed since then...
(Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).
...and once again: the Torah story does not mention the Hyksos' rule and defeat
But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
So some people left. For unknown reasons, to an unknown destination. Perhaps they just moved to a neighboring site because the Nile branches shifted, as happened with Piramesse later on.
What we don't have here is any significant royal building activity that would justify keeping a large number of forced laborers in close proximity... but I'll give you the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" principle in your favor here.
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
... Not convincing. The Torah does not mention the Pharao specifically being disfigured by the wrath of God. And if a skin condition was a result of any of the plagues, it should show up in all the mummies from this era, not just the king, right?
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
We don't even know for certain who was the crown prince before, or how old he was. There's a prince and priest called Amenhotep who is a good candidate. And T IV is by far not the only prince who ascended to the throne unexpected. I mentioned in the other thread how 18th Dynasty succession is complicated...
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.
So T IV didn't go on great military campaigns because his army had drowned? What about: he wasn't a great warrior because he was sickly, possibly epileptic, and died early?
A III, the successor after T IV's short reign, was immensely powerful and wealthy. I don't see a decline...
Common objections debunked
-Habiru did conquer Lebanon and Israel didn't. I never said all Habiru were Israelits but that those Israelits who attacked those specifically cities at this time frame were Habiru. Habiru was social term used for nomads, bandits and outcast which fits to definition of Israelits from that time frame. Some of Habiru were also hitties. We know it from later Egyptians conquest.
I'm fine with that. Early nomadic ancestors of the Israelites might have been called Habiru, but Habiru was also a more general term for nomads and brigands - sounds plausible
-Wouldn't later conquest of Israel debunked conquest. Well no it was focused on Hitties and recapture cities while Israelits were nomadic society that mostly was living outside city. + Egyptians would often lying about their victories and twist truth.
But according to Torah, the Israelites were not nomadic after Joshua's conquest, were they?
-Pithom and Ramses was build later so Exodus didn't happened.But what about this biblical reference to “Raamses”—how to explain it? Fifteenth-century proponents identify it as a later scribal edit known as an “anachronism”—a more familiar, later term used for a more obscure, earlier name (for example, our common anachronistic use of the term “France” when describing ancient “Gaul”). Such a scribal edit could conceivably have been accomplished by the Prophet Samuel (who lived at the end of the Ramesside period)—an individual traditionally ascribed to part of the early compilation of the biblical texts (particularly Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel), which put an emphasis on place-names as they are “to this day.”
Or perhaps the whole story was pieced together at a later date, from different traditions and oral transmissions....
-Many archeologists disaggrees with Exodus being historical. Opinions are not facts. Evidences are facts and we should look at the evidence instead of simply relaying on opinion.
Yes, and when looking at evidence, archaeologists come up with different possible explanations and try to agree on the most likely scenario.
Exodus is NOT the most likely scenario.
It was consensus that Jesus and king David didn't exsisted but with new discovery historians changed their minds. Biblical literalism is actually growing.
Historians change their minds all the time when new evidence shows up.
But I don't see any general trend towards Biblical literalism in recent research...
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

@Mrpp
This is why I wonder about farming because plants use fiber to make straw. @Ehav4Ever was claiming shepherds. I actually think of both shepherds and farming. However, mud brinks only need 1% straw, while burnt-bake bricks need 50% straw. Yet at KMT. They built with stones, so there's no need for lots of straw.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
There are different views as to whether the word Apriu in the Egyptian text refers to Hebrews at all. What is more important is that the geography of Exodus does not match with Egypt and if that does not match then pushing the similarities of one word here or there does not overcome the disconnect with geography, archaeology and ethnography. Therefore, I think this reliance on a mention of Apiru in Amarna letters is not relevant. That said, I think the important point of Amarna letters is the mention of the word Misr. It is baffling for me that the Amarna letters, dated to about 14th century BCE mention Misr, which has no earlier mention in West Asia. So, where they got this Misr and why this word was used for Egypt is the matter that we need to study more. Thank you for your nice comment.

@Misr is Mitsrayim from Indus Valley?
Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus
@Mrpp I extremely was lost when reading five views of the Exodus due to Scott Stripling focusing on the curse tablet that later I learn is fake due to the epigraphy wasn't in the row.
From this screenshot, I learned that epigraphy needs to be in a row, and the epigraphy wasn't in the row. Please take a look at how it is not in a row but a mess. Also, please read below this.

1718927599977.png


The epigraphy needs to be in a row

I struggle to read five views of Exodus because of Dr. Scott Stripling's writing about the curse tablet.
I was extremely lost. I still don't understand what this curse tablet even is.

I've been learning from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala about the Exodus from Indus Valley due to drought and that the Yadavas left Indus Valley due to drought.

Then there's the book five view of Exodus, and I was so lost due to how Dr. Scott Stripling wrote immediately about the curse tablet. I do not understand why the curse tablet and when this happened and was found to be fake due to the epigraphy that wasn't in the row.
Do Egyptian Place Names match with the Biblical Narrative of the Exodus?

Biblical Rameses = Egyptian Pirameses
Etham-Succoth = pr-tm ṯkw (Etham = pr-tm, Succoth =tkw)
Pi-Hahiroth = pr-ḥwt-ḥrt
Baˁal Zephon = bˁr-ḏȜpn
Migdol = mˁktir
Yam suf = ṯwfy

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Mitsrayim, locate at Chanhu Daro in the Sindh Province of Pakistan

Canaan located in Ghuram India, which makes me ask @Bharat Jhunjhunwala are Canaanites from Ghuram India

The Philistines are located at Yam Suph I, Sea of the Philistines Indus River, wait first lets go back to Canaanites

Hebrews were not Canaanites. Abraham lived in Canaan for a short time. His home was Chaldea.

So the Hebrews were not Canaanites, the Hebrews were Yadavas

Gerar, Land of the Philistines Mohenjo Daro

Ok I learn something Gerar is a place
Place is Mohenjo Daro
Gerar, Land of the Philistines
Hindu name is Girivraja, Rajgriha, Magadha
 

Mrpp

New Member
I'm fine with this evidence. Settlers, migrant workers and servants of Semitic origin exist in Egypt already in the Middle Kingdom - yes, I think there's a lot of finds pointing to this.

Yes, but that is 18th Dynasty and it contradicts the bible.
Per the Torah, the tribes came into Egypt peacefully and multiplied there. You are equating this with 13th dynasty Semitic activity in Egypt -fine. But now you are pointing out a new bunch of prisoners being brought by force in the 18th dyn. The Bible speaks of the Pharao trying to contain the number of Hebrews in the decades before Exodus, not bringing in tens of thousands more...

You're aware that no pyramids were built in the 18th Dynasty, aren't you??

As I pointed out before: the story of the Hyksos rule and defeat is well attested in history, but it's not in the Torah. Why not? Why not boast about ruling the great country of Egypt?

Yes. Exactly my thoughts.

...far removed from Bahr Yussuf, but okay...

Did you notice the 100 year gap between irrigation projects around Bahr Yussuf around 1800 and the Avaris tomb around 1700?
...your Joseph must be one of these miraculously long-lived people, then?

I mentioned in the other thread that Petrie is more than a century out of date, yes? Egyptology has progressed since then...

...and once again: the Torah story does not mention the Hyksos' rule and defeat

So some people left. For unknown reasons, to an unknown destination. Perhaps they just moved to a neighboring site because the Nile branches shifted, as happened with Piramesse later on.
What we don't have here is any significant royal building activity that would justify keeping a large number of forced laborers in close proximity... but I'll give you the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" principle in your favor here.

... Not convincing. The Torah does not mention the Pharao specifically being disfigured by the wrath of God. And if a skin condition was a result of any of the plagues, it should show up in all the mummies from this era, not just the king, right?

We don't even know for certain who was the crown prince before, or how old he was. There's a prince and priest called Amenhotep who is a good candidate. And T IV is by far not the only prince who ascended to the throne unexpected. I mentioned in the other thread how 18th Dynasty succession is complicated...

So T IV didn't go on great military campaigns because his army had drowned? What about: he wasn't a great warrior because he was sickly, possibly epileptic, and died early?
A III, the successor after T IV's short reign, was immensely powerful and wealthy. I don't see a decline...

I'm fine with that. Early nomadic ancestors of the Israelites might have been called Habiru, but Habiru was also a more general term for nomads and brigands - sounds plausible

But according to Torah, the Israelites were not nomadic after Joshua's conquest, were they?

Or perhaps the whole story was pieced together at a later date, from different traditions and oral transmissions....

Yes, and when looking at evidence, archaeologists come up with different possible explanations and try to agree on the most likely scenario.
Exodus is NOT the most likely scenario.

Historians change their minds all the time when new evidence shows up.
But I don't see any general trend towards Biblical literalism in recent research...
First of all it is mentioned that number of Israel has been shrunk at this point this would explain why would they need more slaves. Never also said that they build pyramid but that they knew Egyptians method of building which proves they had detailed knowledge of Egyptians customs and not someone who would just make things out. Just beacuse they don't mention something doesn't mean anything. Diffrent writers had diffrence intentions. And I already presented evidence that Avaris was inhabitated by jewish populations in prievious point. So since it was abandoned it shows that Jews were the one who left. And since Amenhotep 2 they do loose territory from that point and have very peacufull politics instead of war so it just prooves that there were decline in military.They specificilly say he was divenily choosed. That is not something they say every time and it shows they already comment on divine interventions. Also you mention that only Amenhotep 2 was sick while we know also his succesor also were. Bible actually mentions that they are leaving them in their cities soo yes it does mention it. A lot of writers in ancient history uses updated names while talking about prievious event. It is very common practice among ancient writers. If it was some made up story they wouldn't make soo hard attempt around Egyptians customs, geographic locations, dates etc. Exodus is most likely scenario you just ommit all of the evidences. Not many historians earlier believed in Jesus cruxifiction or king david rule but we do find more and more evidences so yeah there is more and more trend toward Bible historicity.
 

Tamino

Active Member
First of all it is mentioned that number of Israel has been shrunk at this point this would explain why would they need more slaves.
Pure speculation. The Exodus story does not say that the pharao went to capture more Israelites. And if he did - where did those people come from, were they already living in their promised Land? We're they welcomed as kinfolk by Moses family?
This hypothesis raises far more questions than it answers.
Never also said that they build pyramid but that they knew Egyptians method of building which proves they had detailed knowledge of Egyptians customs
Come on, every culture from Nubia to the Assyrians was using mud bricks in the Bronze and Iron Age, no "detailed knowledge of customs" required
And I already presented evidence that Avaris was inhabitated by jewish populations in prievious point. So since it was abandoned it shows that Jews were the one who left.
And I already said that I ino issue with this bit of evidence. Just, that it is no more than circumstantial. We do not know where to or why they moved.
And since Amenhotep 2 they do loose territory from that point and have very peacufull politics instead of war
Actually, they don't really lose power. Maybe the kings of the later part of the 18th dynasty have less wars, but that could just be a political choice. There is no direct evidence for a loss of armies. (Such as a number of tombs for high ranking army officers all from the same time... as we should expect if the entire elite of charioteers dies)
They specificilly say he was divenily choosed.
Same as Hatshepsut did. So what? The evidence points towards T IV either getting the throne after a conspiracy against his brother, or after his brother died unexpected and he wasn't a perfect candidate. So he needed extra legitimation. Plausible explanations are available without involving Exodus.
That is not something they say every time
.... just every second time
and it shows they already comment on divine interventions.
Egyptian culture had been believing in divine intervention since it's beginning
Also you mention that only Amenhotep 2 was sick while we know also his succesor also were.
AII had perhaps a skin n condition and TIV was perhaps epileptic, but neither can be proven conclusively. So what? Check what we know of Egyptian mummies, there's a huge number of health issues that have been found in mummies (which is very logical... People who die don't tend to be healthy)
. If it was some made up story they wouldn't make soo hard attempt around Egyptians customs, geographic locations, dates etc.
Well, I think it wasn't a story they made up from scratch. It's a story put together from a number of older legends and traditions. Geographic locations and dates lend credibility, so of course I would add those.
Exodus is most likely scenario you just ommit all of the evidences.
No, it really isn't.
All of the evidence is circumstantial and weak. All of the evidence can also be explained in other ways, and very often in more plausible ways.

Historical science should focus on the evidence we have and propose the most likely scenarios based on this evidence.
If we don't have enough evidence to say what happened with any certainty, we just say so.


I have recently purchased Aidan Dodson's "Amarna Sunrise". It contains a very nice and up-to-date presentation of the lives and rule of A ll, T IV and A III, I highly recommend it .
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I have recently purchased Aidan Dodson's "Amarna Sunrise". It contains a very nice and up-to-date presentation of the lives and rule of A ll, T IV and A III, I highly recommend it .
To what does he attribute the relatively rapid collapse (other than Akhenaten)?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The collapse of what exactly? Religious Atenism? Amarna? The 18th Dynasty?

From the book promotion ...

The latter part of the fifteenth century bc saw Egypt’s political power reach its zenith, with an empire that stretched from beyond the Euphrates in the north to much of what is now Sudan in the south. The wealth that flowed into Egypt allowed its kings to commission some of the most stupendous temples of all time, some of the greatest dedicated to Amun-Re, King of the Gods. Yet a century later these temples lay derelict, the god’s images, names, and titles all erased in an orgy of iconoclasm by Akhenaten, the devotee of a single sun-god. [emphasis added - JS][source]​
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is 0 archaeological evidence that supports the Exodus, but it's always possible that something may show up some day to change our mind.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt

The Brooklyn Papyrus; From the earlier Middle Kingdom (13th Dynasty- (c. 2000–c. 1600 B.C.E.) there is evidence of Semitic settlements all across the northeast Nile Delta. The Brooklyn Papyrus contains a list of the names of 95 slaves. 70% of the names are Hebrew, including Asher and Issachar. 10 of the names have direct links to other passages in the Bible. The majority of whom were Semitic. Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem. 2 Kings 15:14

On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.

• Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

The City of Avaris was originally founded by Amenemhat I on the eastern branch of the Nile in the Delta.[12] Its close proximity to Asia made it a popular town for Asiatic immigrants. Many of these immigrants were from Judea and they were culturally Egyptianized, using Egyptian pottery, but also retained many aspects of their own culture, as can be seen from the various Asiatic burials including weapons of Syro-Judean origin. One palatial district appears to have been abandoned as a result of an epidemic during the 13th dynasty.[13]

In the 18th century BC, the Hyksos conquered Lower Egypt and set up Avaris as their capital. Kamose, the last pharaoh of the Seventeenth Dynasty, besieged Avaris but was unable to defeat the Hyksos there. A few decades later, Ahmose I captured Avaris and overran the Hyksos. Canaanite-style artifacts dated to the Tuthmosid or New Kingdom period suggest that a large part of the city's Semitic population remained in residence following its reconquest by the Egyptians. NOTE: Both Ramesses and Avaris were located in the land of Goshen, mentioned in the Bible as having been given by Pharaoh to the Israelites.

Settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land. Let them settle in the land of Goshen…

Genesis 47.6 (ESV)

All of us (or, at least, most of us) are familiar with the story of Joseph, yes? Well, in Egypt there is a river diversionary which is called “Bahr Yussef” which dates back to about 1800 BC. It is a tributary river created around 1800 BC with a pooling area at the end of it, specifically well designed for farming. Bahr Yussef translates to “River of Joseph” in English.[1]

Now I hear critics thinking “so what?” There’s a river named after a biblical character. However, this gets more interesting. There’s an archeological site in Egypt named Avaris. There we have found a house that was built in the early Semite style of house building (very different from Egyptian style houses), which was later expanded upon to be built like an Egyptian palace, similar to those built by leaders of districts in ancient Egypt.[2]

Going deeper into this, there were 11 Semite tombs and 1 Egyptian pyramid style tomb (saved for the Egyptian elites) found on the premises. The Egyptian tomb attracts the most attention because there was no remains left in it (which matches the request of Joseph/Jacob for his final resting place to be in Israel), except for a state of a man with a yellow face (to indicate a foreigner), the hairstyle of Semites at the time, and a coat with lots of colors (not typical at the time in Egypt).[3]

Wow.

There are so much here, some are valid, but most of are just misinformation.

First off. The Semitic-speaking people you talk of include many different ethnics, and that doesn’t just include Canaanites, Hebrews, etc. There were also the ugaritic and most important of all the Amorites.

in all this talk of Hyksos, not once have you mentioned that from the 13th to the 18th dynasties, that the people that were contemporaries to these dynasties, were never called Hyksos. The name Hyksos originated from the 3rd century BCE, by Egyptian priest Manetho, who was Greek-literate.

At no time in the Middle Kingdom period (12th dynasty), the Second Intermediate Period (starting with 13th dynasty) and New Kingdom period (18th dynasty and later), did they ever called the Semitic people Hyksos.

The most dominant West Semitic people were the Amorites. They have settled in land as far east as Sumer, during the 3rd millennium BCE, including during the Akkadian period, with Akkadian being an Eastern semitic language. To far south as Egypt. Don’t know when they arrived in Egypt, but certainly in the early 2nd millennium BCE.

And in both east and west, during the early 2nd millennium BCE, they seized powers, displacing the Sumerian and Akkadians, establishing Babylon, hence the 1st dynasty of Babylon or the Amorite dynasty, was created from the 19th century to very early 16th century BCE, some times in 1590s, displaced by new invader, the Kassites, who became the 2nd dynasty of Babylon.

in northeast Egypt, the Amorites arrived as traders, and many settled in Avaris. When the Middle Kingdom has fallen, the Amorites established the 14th dynasty. The so-called Hyksos dynasties, the 15th & 16th, were most likely comprised of Amorites and few other Semitic groups, but they weren’t Hebrews.

As you said the 17th dynasty (from Thebes) tried to drive out these Semitic dynasties, starting with Seqenenre Tao, then his 2 sons, Kamose and Ahmose I (18th dynasty founder). All Semitic were driven out by 1527 BCE, prior to Ahmos’s death in 1525 BCE.

The second problem, is that neither Genesis, nor Exodus, could name a single Egyptian king by name: not when Abraham was in Egypt, nor Joseph, when he supposedly became governor of all Egypt, and not Moses who supposedly was adopted by Egyptian princess, who was also nameless. According to Exodus 1, Rameses, or the Egyptian proper Pi-Ramesses, was supposedly built during Moses’ birth, and the same city when they left Egypt. Exodus couldn’t name either of the 2 kings.

Ahmose had two daughters, who married their brother after his succession, Meritamun & Sitamun, and neither adopted any foreign baby, let along a Hebrew infant.

Unlike, Genesis and Exodus, there are contemporary records inscribed on stone stelae, temples & tombs, including those of Ahmose, Thutmose, and Seti and Ramesses, often recording their names in their respective families, like parents, siblings, sons and daughters. Genesis and Exodus weren’t written contemporary to anyone, like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph and Moses, nothing exist that were composed contemporary to these man. The scriptures are not eyewitness accounts.

That Genesis or Exodus name any rulers of Egypt, tell me the authors to these books were most likely written during the 6th century BCE, in Babylon and later, and they have no ideas of Egypt history, except to name a few cities.

But Pi-Ramesses never existed in the early 18th dynasty of the 16th and 15th centuries BCE, as it was only built by Seti I & Ramesses II of the 19th dynasty (13th century BCE). Seti named it after his father, Ramesses I, founder of 19th dynasty; he was a former military general of his predecessor pharaoh, Horemheb.

So the biblical Rameses from Exodus, is anachronistic, if we were to believe Moses left Egypt from Rameses (Exodus 12:37) this city 480 years before the foundation of Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6:1). This passage would put passage to about 1447 BCE (that would mean Moses would have been born around 1527 BCE, during last years of Ahmose’s life), and 1447 would have been the reign of Thutmose III.

At no stage in Thutmose’s reign did Egypt suffered from plagues.

Third. Bahr Yussef is a modern Arabic name for the river, which was originally canal called tm.t (transliteration of the hieroglyphic name), meaning great canal, translated into Ancient Greek as Tomis (Τωμις), which has nothing to do with Joseph, until the Arabs conquered Egypt, almost a thousand years later.

Fourth, Ahmose, nor any other kings (during the 18th & 19th dynasties) have pyramids built. Exodus doesn’t even mention pyramids in these 2 verses you have cited (Exodus 5:7, 8), so I don’t know where you getting “pyramids“ from. Large pyramids were built from the 3rd dynasty (starting with the Step Pyramid of Djoser (c 2686 - 2648 BCE) at Saqqara) to the 4th dynasty, being the largest at time of reign of Khufu (c 2589 - c 2566 BCE), the 2nd king of the 4th dynasty. Succeeding dynasties of the Old Kingdom period, but on much more smaller scales. By after Khendjer (13th dynasty, Middle Kingdom period, mid-1700s), it was the last true pyramid in Egypt. Your claim about pyramids is also anachronistic.

You seem to be quoting Wikipedia articles, and yet you seemed to be ignoring or not understanding what you have quoted.
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member

River Sea

Well-Known Member
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
But Tamino, it is as much your speculation that it didn't happen at all. My point is that the Hindu texts do talk about Krishna going away to an unknown country. Hence, there is evidence in Indus Valley and none in Egypt.

I don't think there is plenty of evidence that there was local origin of the exodus in the Levant. This local origin theory has been developed only because we have not found evidence of Exodus in Egypt. If we look for evidence of exodus from the Indus Valley, then the Exodus is established historically and there is no need to look for a local origin. Furthermore, if we consider local origin, then there is no need for crossing of the sea. There is no need for God's intervention to help them cross the sea and there is no explanation for the plates. There are so many contradictions that it just does not gel.

I am not following first century Jew. I am only saying that there is an undercurrent in the Western literature that the Jews are from India and that requires us to look at this hypothesis more seriously.

The difference is that RM-124 is found in 50 to 100% of the Indians in northeast India and it is also found in large number of Ashkenazi Jews. So, the question is where did it enter from? And we cannot simply escape this problem by saying that they are mixed batch. Of course, the humans are a mixed batch, but the task is to unravel that mixedness and find out where this RM-124 got in.

I agree with you that there was most likely no huge migration movement. The figure in of 605,000, for example, may have only 605 persons with thousands as a hyperbola. We do find more evidence of exodus from the Indus Valley in terms of the Taftan volcano, crossing of the Indus River and others that I do not want to repeat here. I am attaching a video RM-124 gene that I have posted elsewhere, and this will give you more evidence on this point.

I cannot provide you reply in terms of loanwords, because the Indus Valley language has not been deciphered, but I am providing list of 24 proper names which are found in the same genealogical sequence as in the biblical genealogy. So, the curiosity is, that not only the names are found, but they are found in the same genealogical sequence, which indicates that this must have been from the same event.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Semitic miners created a language because there were no Semitic miners in Sinai at all. The whole idea flies into the face because the Sinai and Canaan were under the control of the Egyptians, and if Semitic miners had been mining in Egypt, they would have been oppressed by the Egyptians as easily as they oppress the others.

Indeed, you are right that mud bricks are made everywhere, but the question is that the conflict with the Pharaoh was regarding collection of straw and straw constitutes a very small part of the manufacture of mud bricks, but it constitutes 50% of the cost of baked bricks. Hence, it is more likely that the conflict on straw was in an area where baked bricks was used, which was in the Indus Valley.



You got me wrong. I am equating the Yamuna with the Hakkara river, which does not flow now, but the dead course of which can be traced. This was flowing to the east of the Indus and it stops flowing around 1900 to 1500 BCE and turned into pools and that is why the Bible says that it turned into blood.

You got it wrong, my friend. The question is that how do we find exact parallel stories? The question is not whether it is a cow or not. The question is why do we have exact parallels in these stories, in the Hindu texts and the Bible, where there is nothing similar in the Egyptian texts. So, we have to look dispassionately at the evidence rather than come from the Egyptian angle.

You cannot pick up one name and dismiss the 21. Why don't you read the all 21 names and look at the Hindu parallels, and show me where you find similar parallel names in the Egyptian literature.

I beg to disagree with you. You cannot plot a number of travel routes on this globe from a big river to Israel. Please do provide me 2 or 3 such alternatives and then we will discuss.

I'm aghast! See, the point is that you have to make a comparative study. Take the 22 names. If you have 40 parallel names in Egypt and 22 names in Indus Valley, then it would make sense to say that exodus took place from Egypt. But you are asking for absolute evidence from Indus Valley. While there is zero evidence in Egypt. So, you have to make a comparative study and comparatively see which is more fitting the circumstances.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Exodus is one of the most spectacular event in Bible and I wanted to look it through archeological evidence and I found many interesting things that I wanted to share with you guys. First of all acording Bible Exodus happened around 14/15 century BCE and there are interesting finds from that period.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
No I didn't understand what you wrote

@RabbiO due to my not knowing what that means, "what has gotten my goat," I went to Quora and searched and found out, and because of that, now Quora sent me an email about idiomatic.

goat needs to have all blood drain and no broken bones, same abilities as Jesus to take care of God's OCD
Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) 'Jesus Kosher' 'goat Kosher'
if goat flees off of mountain how does anyone know if any bones were not broken and all blood drain for Kosher to take care of OCD in a lesser god.
Now let's repeat this two more times for @Mrpp
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
No I didn't understand what you wrote

@RabbiO due to my not knowing what that means, "what has gotten my goat," I went to Quora and searched and found out, and because of that, now Quora sent me an email about idiomatic.

goat needs to have all blood drain and no broken bones, same abilities as Jesus to take care of God's OCD
Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) 'Jesus Kosher' 'goat Kosher'
if goat flees off of mountain how does anyone know if any bones were not broken and all blood drain for Kosher to take care of OCD in a lesser god.
Now let's repeat this two more times for @Mrpp
 
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