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Exodus Archeology Evidence part 2 updated

River Sea

Well-Known Member
First off. The Semitic-speaking people you talk of include many different ethnics, and that doesn’t just include Canaanites, Hebrews, etc. There were also the ugaritic and most important of all the Amorites.

@gnostic

I don't think the Canaanites ever spoken Hebrew, because the Hebrew language hadn't happened of yet, so if not spoken Hebrew of yet then why were they called Hebrew as if a name of a language, what language did the Canaanites actually speak, was it Sanskrit? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

@gnostic you wrote ugaritic

U·ga·rit·ic
/ˌo͞oɡəˈridik/
adjective
relating to or characteristic of the ancient port and Bronze Age trading city of Ugarit in Northern Syria, its inhabitants, or the language spoken there.

Now we're in Northern Syria?

Is Northern Syria also of the Levant?

However
Israel derived from Sanskrit word Ishwaralaya, which means Isha or Krishna God

Israel means Isha.

in all this talk of Hyksos, not once have you mentioned that from the 13th to the 18th dynasties, that the people that were contemporaries to these dynasties, were never called Hyksos. The name Hyksos originated from the 3rd century BCE, by Egyptian priest Manetho, who was Greek-literate.

Let's go to book that @Tamino shared

But wait, wow I didn't know this
You're aware that no pyramids were built in the 18th Dynasty, aren't you??

So no pyramids were built in the 18th Dynasty, no I didn't know this, how come they didn't build any pyramids in the 18th Dynasty for?

What would had happen if anyone did try to build a pyramid in the 18th Dynasty, would these people get in trouble by who?

wait first to this question by @Tamino
The collapse of what exactly? Religious Atenism? Amarna? The 18th Dynasty?

Is it this?

From the book promotion ...

The latter part of the fifteenth century bc saw Egypt’s political power reach its zenith, with an empire that stretched from beyond the Euphrates in the north to much of what is now Sudan in the south. The wealth that flowed into Egypt allowed its kings to commission some of the most stupendous temples of all time, some of the greatest dedicated to Amun-Re, King of the Gods. Yet a century later these temples lay derelict, the god’s images, names, and titles all erased in an orgy of iconoclasm by Akhenaten, the devotee of a single sun-god. [emphasis added - JS][source]

However I understand the philistines were located near Indus Valley am I understanding correctly @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Gerar, Land of the Philistines Mohenjo Daro


However still is this the timing of the The Bronze Age Collapse that @IndigoChild5559 shown and @Tamino asked in reference: and is this what the book that @Jayhawker Soule shown: I hadn't yet look at book.
This video that @IndigoChild5559 shown and posted.


Here it is from @IndigoChild5559

Oh, its an extremely important event in history. During the Bronze Age, there were a number of empires in the Mediterranean area: the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Myceneans (proto-Greeks), etc. There was extensive trade between these empires that provided a level of wealth and art and stuff that was far greater than at any time previous. And THEN around 1200 BCE something happened that destroyed this world. There are many ideas that historians and archeologists have natural disasters, such as earthquakes and famine, revolts and invasions of the Sea Peoples. But basically in the short span of one lifetime, these civilizations were decimated. Entire cities were reduced to ash and rubble. Egypt was gravely hurt, but survived.

Connecting it to the Bible, it is remembered as that period of time when the Philistines (one of the Sea Peoples) invaded Canaan and conquered the coastline.

You can google it on your own of course. But here is an easy to watch video on it.


The Bronze Age Collapse (approximately 1200 B.C.E.)


Oh book from @Tamino
@Tamino wrote
I have recently purchased Aidan Dodson's "Amarna Sunrise". It contains a very nice and up-to-date presentation of the lives and rule of A ll, T IV and A III, I highly recommend it .

I'll read it and also you shown book from Jan Assman was his name?

 
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Ajax

Active Member
That Genesis or Exodus name any rulers of Egypt, tell me the authors to these books were most likely written during the 6th century BCE, in Babylon and later, and they have no ideas of Egypt history, except to name a few cities.
Neither they had any idea about other events as well. We can estimate from the Bible that Abraham was born in the beginning of 2nd millennium and a century later, Isaac was born. The Philistines begun settling in along the coastal plain of Canaan sometime after 1200 BCE. Yet we read in Genesis 26:1 about Isaac's encounter with Abimelech, king of the Philistines, at the city of Gerar. Additionally, Abraham was also aware of Gerar (Genesis 20:1).
Gerar is today identified with Tel Haror and as Finkelstein says, excavations there have shown that in the Iron Age I - the early phase of Philistine history - it was no more than a small, quite insignificant village. But by the late eighth and seventh century BCE, it had become a strong, heavily fortified Assyrian administrative stronghold, an obvious landmark.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
@Mrpp @Tamino @Bharat Jhunjhunwala


AMARNA
SUNRISE
Egypt from Golden Age
to Age of Heresy
Aidan Dodson

I ask: What is a Golden Age?

To the memory of
Cyril Aldred (1914-99)
whose writings first introduced me to Akhenaten

Let's look up Cyril Aldred

Aldred, Cyril

1719074557023.png

Cyril Aldred
Egyptologist and art historian.

So lets begin with what is a golden age compared to other ages?

@Tamino do you like the golden age and if so how come?

What causes golden and would golden age be also in association of the four yugs @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

and for @Mrpp as you're into Scott Stripling

Did Scott Stripling say anything about the Golden age?

@gnostic what are your thoughts about this word Golden age?

Dawn of the Golden Age

Twenty-first Dynasty priest-king Panedjem I would name a son Menkheperre (Thutmose III) and a daughter Maatkare (Hatshepsut), clearly
wishing to link himself, in a time of national division and decline, back with
two of the principal authors of what was then seen as Egypt's golden age.4

1719098881718.png


Roman Period relief at Kalabsha (fig. 12)65 suggests some involvement by
him in an earlier phase of the site.
In Egypt itself, traces of the king's building work survive from the
First Cataract to the Delta, 66 ranging from loose blocks at Heliopolis, 67 Qamula, 68 Medamud, 69 Esna, 70 Elephantine, 71 and Biga72 to in situ
remains. The remains of small temples at el-Kab 73 and Giza (fig. 13)74
complement a range of structures built at various Theban locations, 75
including his memorial temple and tomb (see pp. 20-21) at Thebes-West,
fragments at Luxor,76 and a number of structures at Karnak. Many are
represented only by reused blocks in later constructions, 77 but Amenhotep
II was responsible for the addition of scenes and texts to the south face
of Pylon VIII (fig. 14),78 as well as a now demolished courtyard in front
of it. 79 This had pillared arcades on either side, the eastern one fronting
a large, pillared, multiple-bark shrine. A small pylon closed the court to
the south, fronted by colossi of Amenhotep I and II, which were removed
to the front of the west tower of Pylon VIII under Horemheb.
16 CHAPTER ONE

@Mrpp
Golden ring what?


GOLD RING FROM HELLENISTIC PERIOD FOUND IN JERUSALEM EXCAVATION

Like a gold ring or an ornament of gold is a wise reprover to a listening ear. – Proverbs 25:12 (ESV)

Ancient Gold Ring From the City of David
A 2,300-year-old gold ring set with a precious stone was recently uncovered during an excavation of the City of David, part of the Jerusalem Walls National Park. The ring is in excellent condition and dates to the Early Hellenistic Period (the time of Greek cultural dominance after about 323 BC).

The discovery of costly jewelry “paints a new picture of the nature and stature of Jerusalem’s inhabitants in the Early Hellenistic Period,” said Tel Aviv University Professor Yuval Gadot. It used to be assumed that Jerusalem was a small town during this era but new finds, including this gold ring, tell a different story. In a wider view, the discovery of the ring and the context surrounding it also speaks to the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

The City of David is the ancient Biblical city’s original center established as Israel’s capital by King David. Today the park is best known for King Hezekiah’s Tunnel, built to bring water into the city ahead of the Assyrian siege led by Sennacherib around 701 BC.

The area is located just outside the southern walls of what today is known as Jerusalem’s Old City. It is considered one of Israel’s most important archaeological sites. The City of David excavation was a joint dig between Tel Aviv University and the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) and conducted with support from the Elad Foundation.

“I Found a Ring!”
Tehiya Gangate, a City of David excavation team member, made the thrilling discovery of the special ring while sifting dirt from the dig. “I was sifting earth through the screen and suddenly saw something glitter,” she explained. “I immediately yelled, ‘I found a ring, I found a ring!’”

“Within seconds, everyone gathered around me, and there was great excitement,” she continued. “This is an emotionally moving find, not the kind you find every day. In truth, I always wanted to find gold jewelry, and I am very happy this dream came true – literally a week before I went on maternity leave.”

The ring was most likely worn by a child given its petite size. A beautiful red gemstone is embedded in the center which archaeologists consider is most likely a garnet. The ring has yet to be scientifically analyzed. Being made of gold, a very refined material that ages well, it is extremely well preserved with no rust or weathering.

About the wearer of the ring, IAA excavation directors Dr. Yiftah Shalev and Riki Zalut Har-tov said: “The ring is very small. It would fit a woman’s pinky, or a young girl’s or boy’s finger.”

Meticulous Crafting of the Ring
Stylistically, the design of the ring reflects the common fashion of the Persian and Early Hellenistic periods, dating from the late 4th to early 3rd century BC and onwards. During this time, preference for gold jewelry with set stones developed rather than decorated or carved gold.

The ring isn’t quite symmetrical and the finishing is less than perfect, but precision fitting is difficult with the technique that was used to make it. Dr. Marion Zindel explained how the ring was crafted by hammering thin pre-cut gold leaves onto a metal ring base that was usually made of bronze or another less expensive metal than gold.

Strip by strip the gold would be meticulously wrapped around the base and carefully hammered on, followed by pressing to achieve the desired ring shape. Only after the gold wrapping was finished would the hole for the stone be cut.

When looking closely at the stone, the joints between the gold sheets are visible, as are tool marks around the stone. “The stone shape needs to be cut after and worked around, which is why it doesn’t fit exactly,” explained Zindel.
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
First of all it is mentioned that number of Israel has been shrunk at this point this would explain why would they need more slaves.
Much appreciated @Mrpp @Tamino @Bharat Jhunjhunwala I'm slowly getting use to this two threads on the same topic.

I don't see any tribes as slaves.
@Mrpp they were farmers - I'll explain more further down this post

I still need to find where you shown your learning @Mrpp of Scott stripling however it's confusing because I don't understand about the curse tablet, and the findings of, and later finding out the fake of it. I don't understand the timing of Exodus and the curse tablet. What brought Scott Stripling to focus on curse tablet for?

oh recently I learn of this festival Sukkot, I found vid orthodoxic Jews doing that festival even made a booth.

there's 4 type of plants fruit, it happens in the fall
What is festival of Sukkot? ok sukkot,
etrog ( אתרוג‎) – the fruit of a citron tree.
lulav ( לולב‎) – a ripe, green, closed frond from a date palm tree.
hadass ( הדס‎) – boughs with leaves from the myrtle tree.
aravah ( ערבה‎) – branches with leaves from the willow tree.

I was going to find music about the Sukkot festival if there were any,

this had taken place in the fall harvesting.

I did find an orthodox Jewish video who shown this festival called Sukkot

here's video

@Mrpp another showing farmers
by @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
@Ehav4Ever was showing Shepherds

Ok where else farm

1719084248713.png



Yadavas Hebrews were farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

How come, need to gather straw

Quran was revealed in arabia. East of arabia...

did they farm east of arabia

did they gather straw too

Quran 28.44 says Moses was not in the West. So East is special.

What did Scott Stripling think of Quran 28:44 @Mrpp

Exodus 5
7“You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

What is a slave?

The Pharaohs didn't have slaves, because lots of tribes

How come the Pharaohs didn't make those other tribes slaves

Yadavas are farmers and Shepheard's and also made homes with burnt bake bricks

how is this slave


Town Planning and Architecture of Harappa & Mohenjodaro

One of the slides that Virag Sontakke used shows farming

1719085302901.png


@Tamino so you think there's no Exodus, am I understanding correctly?

There's so many different understandings and I lost it emotionally when @Mrpp created two threads, due to I was in the middle of and yet felt the need to repeat then

However I do not think these people were slaves

I can't picture slaves at all

So @Mrpp what do you think a slave is?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala you think none of the tribes were slaves, because they lived to thrive and then were dealing with a drought an actual drought, that caused danger to many

How many tribes were there?

2700 BC, Ahar, yet in 1445 BC, the Yadavas left the Indus Valley.

My questions are about the Ahar and Yadava relations with each other—during what era as well as the Yamuna River, what happened?

Who were the Ahar in 2700 compared to the Yadavas in 1525 BC? The Yadavas left the Indus Valley in 1445 BC, while the Ahar people left in 1,800. Were there ever any relations between the Ahar and the Yadavas?

Not slaves no

Aharites abandoned the sites in 1,800 B.C., a period by when Harappa had also declined. Apparently, it was climatic changes or natural calamities that compelled Aharites to quit farming which might not have remained remunerative in that area. Their economies must have been hit by the decline of Harappa too. So either they left for other places for farming or took to cattle and stock raising

it's from the Yamuna River flowing eastward that caused a drought

Help said many help, we're struggling help, that's not a slave, that's crying for help
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I don't think the Canaanites ever spoken Hebrew, because the Hebrew language hadn't happened of yet, so if not spoken Hebrew of yet then why were they called Hebrew as if a name of a language, what language did the Canaanites actually speak, was it Sanskrit? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

@gnostic you wrote ugaritic

U·ga·rit·ic
/ˌo͞oɡəˈridik/
adjective
relating to or characteristic of the ancient port and Bronze Age trading city of Ugarit in Northern Syria, its inhabitants, or the language spoken there.

Now we're in Northern Syria?

Is Northern Syria also of the Levant?

I am talking of "West Semitic" speaking people.

I am not talking about just Hebrew language, but the Canaanite, Ugaritic, Phoenician, Amorite, and many other smaller groups of West Semitic languages.

Yes, the Canaanite language was earlier spoken language, and they wrote mainly in cuneiform through much of 2nd millennium BCE, before adopting Phoenician alphabet in very late 2nd millennium BCE, hence Proto-Canaanite alphabet (PCA).

PCA was adopted and used by Hebrew speaking people, by the 11th century or most likely in the 10th century BCE, and referred to as Paleo-Hebrew scripts.

Before the invention of alphabet, cuneiform writing systems began in pre-Sumerian Uruk (called Erech in the Hebrew Genesis 10), archaic form of Sumerian cuneiform. These primitive cuneiform were discovered at one of the temples at Uruk, dated to around 3300 BCE. Cuneiform became more common by 3100 BCE, becoming more refined and more recognisable Sumerian cuneiform in the the next 2 centuries (hence 30th to 29th centuries BCE). Cuneiform was adopted by the East Semitic AkkadIan’s and by the Elamites in the 3rd millennium BCE. By The 2nd millennium BCE, cuneiform were adopted by many cultures and civilisations, including the Hittites, Ugarit, Canaan in the west.

When the Amorites seized Babylon, and ruled over all Babylonia, the 1st Babylonian Empire, c 1900 to c 1590 BCE, they became Sumerian-Akkadian-ized, adopting not only the language, both spoken and written, but also how they ruled and governed, the use of bureaucracy, religion and other customs. It was the Babylonian Empire that spread cuneiform outside of Mesopotamia.

Trades, languages, and religions were often the cause of ideas being exchanged in different cultures, adapting them to suit their needs.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Neither they had any idea about other events as well. We can estimate from the Bible that Abraham was born in the beginning of 2nd millennium and a century later, Isaac was born. The Philistines begun settling in along the coastal plain of Canaan sometime after 1200 BCE. Yet we read in Genesis 26:1 about Isaac's encounter with Abimelech, king of the Philistines, at the city of Gerar. Additionally, Abraham was also aware of Gerar (Genesis 20:1).

except nothing about Genesis narratives can be verified.

knowing places, like cities, from other civilisations are not good enough, because Homer listed many cities that historically real, but the Trojan War is still a myth. And it is the same with Genesis creation, flood and the 3 patriarchs, they are myths.

Take for example, Genesis 11 mentioned of Chaldeans in Ur.

The Chaldeans didn’t exist in southern Mesopotamia, until they moved there in the 10th century BCE. That tell me, whoever wrote Genesis, wrote this book in the 6th century BCE, not in the 2nd millennium BCE, didn't know much about the history of the Chaldeans or about Babylon.

The mention of Chaldeans in Ur, around the time of Abraham, is clearly anachronistic. The Chaldeans became more powerful when they took Babylon, and created a new dynasty, hence the 3rd Babylonian (Neo-Babylonian) Empire in the late 7th century BCE, and later became responsible for fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE, and were responsible for the Judah important hostages in Babylon.

As to Abimelech. There are no mention of Abimelech other than in Genesis, so there are no ways to verify if this king is real & historical, or not.

If Genesis mention actually the Egyptian king by name, whom Abraham, and that can match contemporary record of Egyptian kings, then that would mean more. But the Egyptian king is nameless, like that of Joseph later in Genesis, and neither of the 2 kings in Exodus (one at the time of Moses' birth, and the other at the time of Israelites' exodus). They all remained nameless, which would make Genesis and Exodus unreliable (historicity-wise) to the point of worthlessness as accounts of Israelite origins.
 
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Ajax

Active Member
As to Abimelech. There are no mention of Abimelech other than in Genesis, so there are no ways to verify if this king is real & historical, or not.
The problem does not lie with the name of the king, but with the fact that no Philistine king could have existed for seven centuries after Abraham and Isaac lived, and the city of Gerar could not have been known for at least a millennium after the patriarchs.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
The problem does not lie with the name of the king, but with the fact that no Philistine king could have existed for seven centuries after Abraham and Isaac lived, and the city of Gerar could not have been known for at least a millennium after the patriarchs.

@Ajax @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Mrpp @Tamino

Where was Gerar?

Gerar - place was Mohenjo Daro
Gerar - Semitic Name was Land of the Philistines
Gerar - Hindu Name Girivraja, Rajgriha, Magadha

1719148293512.png
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
@Aupmanyav
Look what I found

1719150641519.png


Page 27

Aryans theory (AIT) and the Out of India theory (OIT)

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala agrees with OIT
@Aupmanyav agrees with AIT

I'm agreeing with OIT and learn from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

OIT that happened from Indus Valley and Exodus and some eventually arrived at Ishwaralaya (Israel)

Israel derived from Sanskrit word Ishwaralaya, which means Isha or Krishna God
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt

The Brooklyn Papyrus; From the earlier Middle Kingdom (13th Dynasty- (c. 2000–c. 1600 B.C.E.) there is evidence of Semitic settlements all across the northeast Nile Delta. The Brooklyn Papyrus contains a list of the names of 95 slaves. 70% of the names are Hebrew, including Asher and Issachar. 10 of the names have direct links to other passages in the Bible. The majority of whom were Semitic. Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem. 2 Kings 15:14

On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.

• Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

The City of Avaris was originally founded by Amenemhat I on the eastern branch of the Nile in the Delta.[12] Its close proximity to Asia made it a popular town for Asiatic immigrants. Many of these immigrants were from Judea and they were culturally Egyptianized, using Egyptian pottery, but also retained many aspects of their own culture, as can be seen from the various Asiatic burials including weapons of Syro-Judean origin. One palatial district appears to have been abandoned as a result of an epidemic during the 13th dynasty.[13]

In the 18th century BC, the Hyksos conquered Lower Egypt and set up Avaris as their capital. Kamose, the last pharaoh of the Seventeenth Dynasty, besieged Avaris but was unable to defeat the Hyksos there. A few decades later, Ahmose I captured Avaris and overran the Hyksos. Canaanite-style artifacts dated to the Tuthmosid or New Kingdom period suggest that a large part of the city's Semitic population remained in residence following its reconquest by the Egyptians. NOTE: Both Ramesses and Avaris were located in the land of Goshen, mentioned in the Bible as having been given by Pharaoh to the Israelites.

Settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land. Let them settle in the land of Goshen…

Genesis 47.6 (ESV)

All of us (or, at least, most of us) are familiar with the story of Joseph, yes? Well, in Egypt there is a river diversionary which is called “Bahr Yussef” which dates back to about 1800 BC. It is a tributary river created around 1800 BC with a pooling area at the end of it, specifically well designed for farming. Bahr Yussef translates to “River of Joseph” in English.[1]

Now I hear critics thinking “so what?” There’s a river named after a biblical character. However, this gets more interesting. There’s an archeological site in Egypt named Avaris. There we have found a house that was built in the early Semite style of house building (very different from Egyptian style houses), which was later expanded upon to be built like an Egyptian palace, similar to those built by leaders of districts in ancient Egypt.[2]

Going deeper into this, there were 11 Semite tombs and 1 Egyptian pyramid style tomb (saved for the Egyptian elites) found on the premises. The Egyptian tomb attracts the most attention because there was no remains left in it (which matches the request of Joseph/Jacob for his final resting place to be in Israel), except for a state of a man with a yellow face (to indicate a foreigner), the hairstyle of Semites at the time, and a coat with lots of colors (not typical at the time in Egypt).[3]

6 Explains Problems of egypt.
Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “Nothing strikes us as more extraordinary than the condition of injury and confusion in which the most important buildings of Egypt seem to have remained,” Petrie wrote. “The most imposing works stood amidst half-ruined and unfinished halls for a whole reign; other parts were walled off to hide offensive memorials; other structures were either incomplete or half-ruined” (ibid). (Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).

But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.


Common objections debunked
-Habiru did conquer Lebanon and Israel didn't. I never said all Habiru were Israelits but that those Israelits who attacked those specifically cities at this time frame were Habiru. Habiru was social term used for nomads, bandits and outcast which fits to definition of Israelits from that time frame. Some of Habiru were also hitties. We know it from later Egyptians conquest.
-Wouldn't later conquest of Israel debunked conquest. Well no it was focused on Hitties and recapture cities while Israelits were nomadic society that mostly was living outside city. + Egyptians would often lying about their victories and twist truth.
-Pithom and Ramses was build later so Exodus didn't happened.But what about this biblical reference to “Raamses”—how to explain it? Fifteenth-century proponents identify it as a later scribal edit known as an “anachronism”—a more familiar, later term used for a more obscure, earlier name (for example, our common anachronistic use of the term “France” when describing ancient “Gaul”). Such a scribal edit could conceivably have been accomplished by the Prophet Samuel (who lived at the end of the Ramesside period)—an individual traditionally ascribed to part of the early compilation of the biblical texts (particularly Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel), which put an emphasis on place-names as they are “to this day.”
-Many archeologists disaggrees with Exodus being historical. Opinions are not facts. Evidences are facts and we should look at the evidence instead of simply relaying on opinion. It was consensus that Jesus and king David didn't exsisted but with new discovery historians changed their minds. Biblical literalism is actually growing.
Sources
-https://armstronginstitute.org/881-the-amarna-letters-proof-of-israels-invasion-of-canaan
-https://www.biblehistory.net/joshua.html
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
-https://biblearchaeology.org/research/conquest-of-canaan/3865-jericho-does-the-evidence-disprove-or-prove-the-bible
-https://nypost.com/2021/10/02/archaeologist-claims-mount-sinai-found-in-saudi-arabia/
-https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-excavations-of-Avaris-Egypt-not-accepted-as-evidence-for-the-biblical-period-of-Joseph-to-the-Exodus
-https://theconversation.com/the-history-of-israel-and-palestine-alternative-names-competing-claims-163156
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aton
-https://armstronginstitute.org/882-who-was-the-pharaoh-of-the-exodus

@Mrpp
What was the correction?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The problem does not lie with the name of the king, but with the fact that no Philistine king could have existed for seven centuries after Abraham and Isaac lived, and the city of Gerar could not have been known for at least a millennium after the patriarchs.

I found this interesting ... at least after I disabled the audio.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt

The Brooklyn Papyrus; From the earlier Middle Kingdom (13th Dynasty- (c. 2000–c. 1600 B.C.E.) there is evidence of Semitic settlements all across the northeast Nile Delta. The Brooklyn Papyrus contains a list of the names of 95 slaves. 70% of the names are Hebrew, including Asher and Issachar. 10 of the names have direct links to other passages in the Bible. The majority of whom were Semitic. Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem. 2 Kings 15:14

On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.

• Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

The City of Avaris was originally founded by Amenemhat I on the eastern branch of the Nile in the Delta.[12] Its close proximity to Asia made it a popular town for Asiatic immigrants. Many of these immigrants were from Judea and they were culturally Egyptianized, using Egyptian pottery, but also retained many aspects of their own culture, as can be seen from the various Asiatic burials including weapons of Syro-Judean origin. One palatial district appears to have been abandoned as a result of an epidemic during the 13th dynasty.[13]

In the 18th century BC, the Hyksos conquered Lower Egypt and set up Avaris as their capital. Kamose, the last pharaoh of the Seventeenth Dynasty, besieged Avaris but was unable to defeat the Hyksos there. A few decades later, Ahmose I captured Avaris and overran the Hyksos. Canaanite-style artifacts dated to the Tuthmosid or New Kingdom period suggest that a large part of the city's Semitic population remained in residence following its reconquest by the Egyptians. NOTE: Both Ramesses and Avaris were located in the land of Goshen, mentioned in the Bible as having been given by Pharaoh to the Israelites.

Settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land. Let them settle in the land of Goshen…

Genesis 47.6 (ESV)

All of us (or, at least, most of us) are familiar with the story of Joseph, yes? Well, in Egypt there is a river diversionary which is called “Bahr Yussef” which dates back to about 1800 BC. It is a tributary river created around 1800 BC with a pooling area at the end of it, specifically well designed for farming. Bahr Yussef translates to “River of Joseph” in English.[1]

Now I hear critics thinking “so what?” There’s a river named after a biblical character. However, this gets more interesting. There’s an archeological site in Egypt named Avaris. There we have found a house that was built in the early Semite style of house building (very different from Egyptian style houses), which was later expanded upon to be built like an Egyptian palace, similar to those built by leaders of districts in ancient Egypt.[2]

Going deeper into this, there were 11 Semite tombs and 1 Egyptian pyramid style tomb (saved for the Egyptian elites) found on the premises. The Egyptian tomb attracts the most attention because there was no remains left in it (which matches the request of Joseph/Jacob for his final resting place to be in Israel), except for a state of a man with a yellow face (to indicate a foreigner), the hairstyle of Semites at the time, and a coat with lots of colors (not typical at the time in Egypt).[3]

6 Explains Problems of egypt.
Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “Nothing strikes us as more extraordinary than the condition of injury and confusion in which the most important buildings of Egypt seem to have remained,” Petrie wrote. “The most imposing works stood amidst half-ruined and unfinished halls for a whole reign; other parts were walled off to hide offensive memorials; other structures were either incomplete or half-ruined” (ibid). (Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).

But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.


Common objections debunked
-Habiru did conquer Lebanon and Israel didn't. I never said all Habiru were Israelits but that those Israelits who attacked those specifically cities at this time frame were Habiru. Habiru was social term used for nomads, bandits and outcast which fits to definition of Israelits from that time frame. Some of Habiru were also hitties. We know it from later Egyptians conquest.
-Wouldn't later conquest of Israel debunked conquest. Well no it was focused on Hitties and recapture cities while Israelits were nomadic society that mostly was living outside city. + Egyptians would often lying about their victories and twist truth.
-Pithom and Ramses was build later so Exodus didn't happened.But what about this biblical reference to “Raamses”—how to explain it? Fifteenth-century proponents identify it as a later scribal edit known as an “anachronism”—a more familiar, later term used for a more obscure, earlier name (for example, our common anachronistic use of the term “France” when describing ancient “Gaul”). Such a scribal edit could conceivably have been accomplished by the Prophet Samuel (who lived at the end of the Ramesside period)—an individual traditionally ascribed to part of the early compilation of the biblical texts (particularly Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel), which put an emphasis on place-names as they are “to this day.”
-Many archeologists disaggrees with Exodus being historical. Opinions are not facts. Evidences are facts and we should look at the evidence instead of simply relaying on opinion. It was consensus that Jesus and king David didn't exsisted but with new discovery historians changed their minds. Biblical literalism is actually growing.
Sources
-https://armstronginstitute.org/881-the-amarna-letters-proof-of-israels-invasion-of-canaan
-https://www.biblehistory.net/joshua.html
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
-https://biblearchaeology.org/research/conquest-of-canaan/3865-jericho-does-the-evidence-disprove-or-prove-the-bible
-https://nypost.com/2021/10/02/archaeologist-claims-mount-sinai-found-in-saudi-arabia/
-https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-excavations-of-Avaris-Egypt-not-accepted-as-evidence-for-the-biblical-period-of-Joseph-to-the-Exodus
-https://theconversation.com/the-history-of-israel-and-palestine-alternative-names-competing-claims-163156
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aton
-https://armstronginstitute.org/882-who-was-the-pharaoh-of-the-exodus
Any scholastic study looks for what does
not fit, what contradicts.
You've got a zero on that.

Your mind is clearly made up and your post
reeks of confirmation bias.

And your sources! Quora. Biblehistory.net

Nothing about red sea chariots?
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
@Mrpp I still can't find the correction @Bharat Jhunjhunwala can you find the correction and show me please?
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt

Egypt had only five slaves. Only five.
Are you certain there are only five slaves in Egypt?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The City of Avaris was originally founded by Amenemhat I on the eastern branch of the Nile in the Delta.[12] Its close proximity to Asia made it a popular town for Asiatic immigrants. Many of these immigrants were from Judea and they were culturally Egyptianized, using Egyptian pottery, but also retained many aspects of their own culture, as can be seen from the various Asiatic burials including weapons of Syro-Judean origin. One palatial district appears to have been abandoned as a result of an epidemic during the 13th dynasty.[13]

Excuse me, but there were never any “Judaea“ in the Bronze Age, not at the time of Middle Kingdom’s 12th dynasty In Egypt.

Judaea was a name for region that only existed post-exiled, hence the Second Temple period.

Plus, Amenemhat I died around mid 20th century BCE, so there no 12 tribes of Israel.

6 Explains Problems of egypt.
Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment

except you are ignoring the fact that Amenhotep II, Amenhotep III & Akhenaten were 18th dynasty pharaohs, AND the city of Pi-Ramesses (House of Ramesses, which Exodus called Rameses) were being built until the 2nd & 3rd pharaohs of the 19th dynasty, Seti I & Ramesses II.

Second, Joshua (book) claimed that Jericho was captured after Moses’ death, and the city was abandoned afterwards.

But archaeologically, Jericho was abandoned around 1570, centuries before Pi-Ramesses was completed by Ramesses II, around 1260 BCE.

so the timeline of Exodus & Joshua are reverse of these archaeological sites.

and btw, the Exodus couldn’t name a single Egyptian kings. I am still not impressed with the Bible being used as sources, since it cannot get anything right.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Nimrud Tablet K.3751 references "Jehoahaz of the land Judah." Dated c.733BCE, it predates the 2nd Temple Period by roughly two decades.

That’s Judah, not Judaea.

Judah and Israel are indeed kingdoms of the Israelites. But Judaea wasn’t used until 2TP.

@Mrpp also brought up the city of Avaris, being first built by 20th century BCE Egyptian king, and while Semitic people did live in large parts of the Levant and Mesopotamia, and some may have migrated into Egypt, there were no “Judah” or “Israel“ and definitely no Judaea during 12th dynasty Egypt.

The Amorites were Semitic people, and settled in many places in 2nd millennium BCE, especially establishing Babylon as its capital, where they ruled area region that used to be Sumer (in the 3rd millennium BCE), but then Babylonia. And the Sumerians called the Amorites as Mar-Tu or Mar-du. They seemed to have settled in Canaan, as well as in Egypt, where they established 14th dynasty. The 15th dynasty, the so-called Hyksos dynasty, were of mixed Semitic-speaking people, as there are really not much information about them, it could be predominately be Amorites too.

What Mrpp is claiming, are anachronistic.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously part Exodus Archeology Evidence otherwise you will be confused of what are my points.
5 Slaves in egypt


-Many archeologists disaggrees with Exodus being historical. Opinions are not facts. Evidences are facts and we should look at the evidence instead of simply relaying on opinion. It was consensus that Jesus and king David didn't exsisted but with new discovery historians changed their minds. Biblical literalism is actually growing.
Sources
-https://armstronginstitute.org/881-the-amarna-letters-proof-of-israels-invasion-of-canaan
-https://www.biblehistory.net/joshua.html
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru
-https://biblearchaeology.org/research/conquest-of-canaan/3865-jericho-does-the-evidence-disprove-or-prove-the-bible
-https://nypost.com/2021/10/02/archaeologist-claims-mount-sinai-found-in-saudi-arabia/
-https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-excavations-of-Avaris-Egypt-not-accepted-as-evidence-for-the-biblical-period-of-Joseph-to-the-Exodus
-https://theconversation.com/the-history-of-israel-and-palestine-alternative-names-competing-claims-163156
-https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aton
-https://armstronginstitute.org/882-who-was-the-pharaoh-of-the-exodus
They above post mixes some facts of history, misinformation, myths, and the created history of an Exodus after 600 BCE.

First, it is false that the consensus of historians and archeologists consider Jesus and King David did not exist. It is the consensus is that they are real persons in history. Now on the other hand it is very questionable that Joshua or his army ever existed. and his invasion of Canaan never happened, because Canaan was mostly occupied and colonized by Egyptians at the time.

Some of your references clearly reflect the religious biased agenda, though a few like the Wikipedia references do provide a more historical and archeologically accurate description of the history at the time of the historical narrative Exodus.

They first problem I wanted to clarify is who were the Hyksos. The Wikipedia article is good and corroborates with other sources references. First Hyksos were not Hyksos that was a name given to those that ruled them them after the fact. Second the Hyksos were not Hebrews. It is becoming better documented that they were Canaanites from northernmost Syria and northern Mesopotamia.

The Hyksos​

By Danielle Candelora University of California, Los Angeles

If you study “fake news” from ancient Egypt, you would consider the Hyksos a band of nasty, marauding outsiders who invaded and then brutally ruled the Nile Delta until heroic kings expelled them. In fact, the Hyksos had a more diplomatic impact, contributing to progress in culture, language, military affairs and even the introduction of the iconic horse and chariot. The story of these two competing explanations reveals much about ancient Egypt and this mysterious group.

As a word, Hyksos is simply the Greek version of an Egyptian title, Heka Khasut, meaning “rulers of foreign lands/hill countries.” While much is misunderstood, we know the Hyksos comprised a small group of West Asian individuals who ruled Northern Egypt, especially the Delta, during the Second Intermediate Period. These rulers were recorded as Egypt’s 15th dynasty in the Turin Royal Canon, the only known king’s list that documents their existence.

For decades, the writings of the Ptolemaic Egyptian historian, Manetho, influenced the popular and scholarly interpretations of the Hyksos. Preserved in Josephus’s Contra Apionem I, Manetho presented the Hyksos as a barbaric horde, “invaders of an obscure race” who conquered Egypt by force, causing destruction and murdering or enslaving Egyptians. This account continued in Egyptian texts from the Second Intermediate Period and New Kingdom. As Egyptology developed, years of debate over the extent of destruction and the ethnicity of the “Hyksos people” transpired. Only in more recent decades have the Hyksos been revealed as a small group of rulers (we know of six) and not a population or ethnic group.

The research that led to this new image began in 1966 when the Austrian Academy of Sciences opened the still-ongoing excavations at Tell el Dab’a, (ancient Avaris or Hwt-Waret) and identified the site as the Hyksos capital. Along with nearby archaeological investigations, it became apparent that no sound evidence supported the invasion tale. Instead, the excavations at Tell el Dab’a demonstrated that immigrants from Southwest Asia (the Levant) had been relocating to the Eastern Nile Delta for centuries, with this immigration peaking in the mid-12th dynasty through the early Second Intermediate Period. Examination of religious architecture, deities, burial practices, food and artifacts such as weapons and toggle pins all indicated a large population of West Asian individuals. In fact, many of these elements combined Egyptian practices with that of the immigrants, suggesting Tell el Dab’a was a culturally blended community featuring intermarriage and peaceful coexistence. Several West Asian individuals were even officials for Middle Kingdom kings, overseeing trade in the Near East and lucrative mining expeditions to the Sinai Peninsula. Rather than an “invasion,” it appears that as the centralized authority of Egyptian kings declined, elites at Tell el Dab’a increased their local power until, by a coup or simply a slow, peaceful process, they took the Heka Khasut title and became kings in their own right.

To be continued . . .
 
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