Experiencing God

Thief · Feb 10, 2015

Nakosis said:
Will it rise without God?

Oddly enough....it will.

The spin of the universe was set in motion by the snap of God's fingers.
The motion will continue....until He stops it.

Nakosis · Feb 11, 2015

Thief said:
Oddly enough....it will.

The spin of the universe was set in motion by the snap of God's fingers.
The motion will continue....until He stops it.

In which case we'd just need God to not interfere.

Thief · Feb 11, 2015

Nakosis said:
In which case we'd just need God to not interfere.

and usually ....He doesn't.....

Muffled · Feb 12, 2015

Cephus said:
How do you know it was God? How did you verify that it wasn't the "devil" of another pantheon trying to gain your confidence?

I hear the devil also. I tell him to get lost. He is pretty easy to identify. He lies, wants to kill, destroy and/or steal.

For isntance the devil will tell me to drive off the raod and crash into something. He obviously does not have my best interests at heart.

Muffled · Feb 12, 2015

SkepticX said:
I've had a couple of very powerful such experiences--one that I interpreted as God's presence, the other as an unknown--maybe a neurological misfire of some sort. I frequently have lesser versions of the same experience through meditation, and sometimes they've just happened spontaneously.

These are just the kinds of things humans can experience because we're humans. You may feel confident in your interpretation, but the fact of the experiences and that you've decided to interpret them as conclusive evidence of a god doesn't mean you really have conclusive evidence. I'd consider that hubris, actually. You still require religious faith to feel so confident in your interpretation. So all you're really saying is that you've decided to form an uncritical conclusion and to invest in it pretty heavily. That's not good if you want to really make sure you understand it. It's fine if you've decided it's meaningful for you and you're really not too concerned about looking into any other potential causes.

I believe it makes sense that one interprets ones experience based on how it relates to other experiences. In the Bible a person heard from God and had a prophecy come true so a like experience can be interpreted as hearing from God.

If one just hears a voice and it doesn't idenify itself then what is one to think? Even if a voice identifies itself as God I believe there is a chance of a satanic deception so one needs to know what God is like from other people's experiences to be sure one has the real thing.

Muffled · Feb 12, 2015

Sonofason said:
Yes, these are the kinds of things humans can experience. When you look up into the sky, and interpret what you see, you may feel confident that what you see is a sun, but the fact is that the experience that you've so confidently decided to interpret as a sun doesn't mean you really have conclusive evidence that what you've seen is the sun. I'd consider that hubris. You still require faith in humanity to feel so confident in your interpretation. So all you're really saying is that you've decided to form an uncritical conclusion and to invest in it pretty heavily. That's not good if you want to really make sure you understand what you are seeing. It's fine if you want to put your faith in other people, and you're not really too concerned about looking into other potential causes.

I believe it is conclusive evidence and it can hardly be called hubris if everyone else sees the sun also. If you are not seeing the same thing something is different such as you have your eyes closed or you are in a house etc. The person who alters the experience then is showing hubris by saying there is no sun based on a personal experience that is different from the experience of most people.

I believe that does not mean that closing ones eyes is not a valid experience, just that it is not a valid experience of the sun.

9-10ths_Penguin · Feb 12, 2015

Muffled said:
I believe it is conclusive evidence and it can hardly be called hubris if everyone else sees the sun also. If you are not seeing the same thing something is different such as you have your eyes closed or you are in a house etc. The person who alters the experience then is showing hubris by saying there is no sun based on a personal experience that is different from the experience of most people.

I believe that does not mean that closing ones eyes is not a valid experience, just that it is not a valid experience of the sun.

This seems like a convenient way to dismiss any observation that doesn't agree with your predetermined beliefs. If they don't agree with you, they must not be seeing what you see, and what you see is real.

BTW, in your scenario, how do you go about determining that you're not the one inside looking at a ceiling instead of the actual sky?

Muffled · Feb 12, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
This seems like a convenient way to dismiss any observation that doesn't agree with your predetermined beliefs. If they don't agree with you, they must not be seeing what you see, and what you see is real.

BTW, in your scenario, how do you go about determining that you're not the one inside looking at a ceiling instead of the actual sky?

I don't believe I said that a different observation surely meant a different view but it would seem more likely to me. I don't dismiss other people's observations automatically but I do want to know if they are doing something different. I believe it is quite rational to say a person observing the sun the same way I observe it and doesn't see it is lost in illusion or delusion.

I believe I know a ceiling when I see one and a sky when I see one. I know when I am putting finders over my eyes and when I am closing my eyes.

Cephus · Feb 12, 2015

Muffled said:
I hear the devil also. I tell him to get lost. He is pretty easy to identify. He lies, wants to kill, destroy and/or steal.

For isntance the devil will tell me to drive off the raod and crash into something. He obviously does not have my best interests at heart.

How do you know that you're not just deluded and you're not really hearing these things? How have you tested any of it objectively? If you're really hearing voices in your head, seek professional help.

Muffled · Mar 3, 2015

Cephus said:
How do you know that you're not just deluded and you're not really hearing these things? How have you tested any of it objectively? If you're really hearing voices in your head, seek professional help.[/QUOTE]

I believe a delsion of hearing things is also hearing things but I suppose what you are saying is that it is possible the mind produces the hearing and that it does not come from an outside source. I know that it is an outside source because I know me. Also I am not capable of telling the future so I feel confident that the voice is an outside source, namely God who knows everything.

I believe I test by the Bible. If a voice says something contrary to the Bible it is not the voice of God.

I believe professionals are absolutely stupid when it comes to spiritual things. I wouldn't trust them to be sane themselves.
I hear all kinds of voices but not very clearly and I can shut them out if I wish. I find it to be normal for me and have no trouble coping with it. I know there are others who have been troubled by such things and the worst ones are the ones that listen to evil voices as though they were God's voice. I had a cousin who was a Scizophrenic but he never mentioned voices but then when he was having prolems he wasn't very communicative and a bit catatonic. That wasn't my line but a line by marriage. His family all had the same last name going back about six generations. My daughter partnered up with a schizophrenic who has a spirit who takes him on walks without his knowledge of it. I told him he had a demon but he didn't agree.

SkepticX · Mar 3, 2015

Muffled said:
I believe it is conclusive evidence and it can hardly be called hubris if everyone else sees the sun also.

The hubris is in trusting raw human perception over critical analysis, particularly when it's done selectively. We know better than to trust raw perception until it comes to perceptions that we find affirming.

Muffled said:
If you are not seeing the same thing something is different such as you have your eyes closed or you are in a house etc.

Or what people are "seeing" is as much or more a product of influences that aren't the subject of the observation.

Muffled said:
The person who alters the experience then is showing hubris by saying there is no sun based on a personal experience that is different from the experience of most people.

That's precisely the opposite of what's actually happening. That happens when one invests in the raw perception and it becomes a sacred cow.

Muffled said:
I believe that does not mean that closing ones eyes is not a valid experience, just that it is not a valid experience of the sun.

It's actually a rejection of processing the perceptions with rigor if it doesn't produce an affirming result.

Muffled said:
I believe it makes sense that one interprets ones experience based on how it relates to other experiences. In the Bible a person heard from God and had a prophecy come true so a like experience can be interpreted as hearing from God.

If one just hears a voice and it doesn't idenify itself then what is one to think? Even if a voice identifies itself as God I believe there is a chance of a satanic deception so one needs to know what God is like from other people's experiences to be sure one has the real thing.

You fail to appreciate the question of the voice's origin. One view is affirming, so you go with it. Another view is not affirming so it's a kind of blindness.

That's the hubris Sonofason was talking about, if I may be so presumptuous as to interpret Sonofason's post so boldly--I defer to him of course, though I'm not sure he realizes what he's on to here.

Unibeauty · Mar 3, 2015

Sonofason said:
I am amazed that so many believers that have had "spiritual" experiences won't share their experiences with others. It ought not surprise me however, as I too have had "spiritual" experiences that I just will not share with anyone. I gather that the telling of such experiences puts one at risk of throwing one's pearls to the swine.

My experience of God has actually brought me to a point where I no longer require faith to believe in God. I am absolutely certain of his existence and presence in my life.

So I guess that leaves me with a question for those who have had God experiences. What do you think it was that you did which enabled you to experience what you experienced? What did you do to invoke God's attention?

Did you do drugs? Honest question. A lot of people think they have experienced thing that are visual hallucinations.

Cephus · Mar 3, 2015

Muffled said:
I believe a delsion of hearing things is also hearing things but I suppose what you are saying is that it is possible the mind produces the hearing and that it does not come from an outside source. I know that it is an outside source because I know me. Also I am not capable of telling the future so I feel confident that the voice is an outside source, namely God who knows everything.

You really have no way of knowing your subconscious as you claim to, clearly you are suffering from the Dunning-Kruger Effect in this instance. These are not claims that can be made without an external reference. You lack that.

I believe I test by the Bible. If a voice says something contrary to the Bible it is not the voice of God.

But you haven't proven that the Bible is valid or worthwhile. It's no more credible to use the Bible as your guide than it is to use a Dr. Seuss book. You've just arbitrarily chosen a source that you happen to like and which gives you some form of emotional comfort.

I believe professionals are absolutely stupid when it comes to spiritual things. I wouldn't trust them to be sane themselves.
I hear all kinds of voices but not very clearly and I can shut them out if I wish. I find it to be normal for me and have no trouble coping with it. I know there are others who have been troubled by such things and the worst ones are the ones that listen to evil voices as though they were God's voice. I had a cousin who was a Scizophrenic but he never mentioned voices but then when he was having prolems he wasn't very communicative and a bit catatonic. That wasn't my line but a line by marriage. His family all had the same last name going back about six generations. My daughter partnered up with a schizophrenic who has a spirit who takes him on walks without his knowledge of it. I told him he had a demon but he didn't agree.

But to that schizophrenic, I'm sure that everything he experiences feels absolutely real and he justifies it just like you do. Yet you claim to somehow "know" that you're right and he's wrong. That isn't rational, it's fallacious. You just don't seem to recognize your own irrationality.

Unibeauty · Mar 3, 2015

Cephus said:
You really have no way of knowing your subconscious as you claim to, clearly you are suffering from the Dunning-Kruger Effect in this instance. These are not claims that can be made without an external reference. You lack that.

But you haven't proven that the Bible is valid or worthwhile. It's no more credible to use the Bible as your guide than it is to use a Dr. Seuss book. You've just arbitrarily chosen a source that you happen to like and which gives you some form of emotional comfort.

But to that schizophrenic, I'm sure that everything he experiences feels absolutely real and he justifies it just like you do. Yet you claim to somehow "know" that you're right and he's wrong. That isn't rational, it's fallacious. You just don't seem to recognize your own irrationality.

Who is anyone to say. I asked if you had done drugs for a reason. People hear and see things it maybe real. I don't know. Try to stop and you can determine reality. Sometimes reality is too much that is why people find an escape. Still have to wake up in the morning or you would be dead. Be grateful for the air, a bed to sleep in and the few and far between who care.

Cephus · Mar 3, 2015

Unibeauty said:
Who is anyone to say. I asked if you had done drugs for a reason. People hear and see things it maybe real. I don't know. Try to stop and you can determine reality. Sometimes reality is too much that is why people find an escape. Still have to wake up in the morning or you would be dead. Be grateful for the air, a bed to sleep in and the few and far between who care.

Nope, I'm not stupid. And yes, people see and hear things under the influence of drugs, but we can identify what these things are and what they are caused by. The same is true of the old tried and true alcoholic who sees pink elephants. We know those elephants don't really exist, no matter how real it might feel to the alcoholic at the time. That's why we don't accept people on their word that they saw something or heard something that they cannot provide any corroboratory evidence for. Human experience is remarkably unrealiable, especially when they throw in unjustified explanations behind it. People who have scary dreams and blame Satan for it have no reason, outside of their pre-existing beliefs, to even think Satan is real. There's nothing to demonstrably link Satan to the dream, but they become convinced that must be what happened. The same thing happens with people who claim to talk to God. Sure, something is happening but there is no demonstrable link between the experience and God. That doesn't mean these people don't have an emotional investment in claiming it's so.

Unibeauty · Mar 3, 2015

Cephus said:
Nope, I'm not stupid. And yes, people see and hear things under the influence of drugs, but we can identify what these things are and what they are caused by. The same is true of the old tried and true alcoholic who sees pink elephants. We know those elephants don't really exist, no matter how real it might feel to the alcoholic at the time. That's why we don't accept people on their word that they saw something or heard something that they cannot provide any corroboratory evidence for. Human experience is remarkably unrealiable, especially when they throw in unjustified explanations behind it. People who have scary dreams and blame Satan for it have no reason, outside of their pre-existing beliefs, to even think Satan is real. There's nothing to demonstrably link Satan to the dream, but they become convinced that must be what happened. The same thing happens with people who claim to talk to God. Sure, something is happening but there is no demonstrable link between the experience and God. That doesn't mean these people don't have an emotional investment in claiming it's so.

I would like to hear your experience. I didn't mean to imply anything. I truly was asking. What happened?

Cephus · Mar 3, 2015

Unibeauty said:
I would like to hear your experience. I didn't mean to imply anything. I truly was asking. What happened?

What experience are you referring to?

Unibeauty · Mar 3, 2015

Your

Cephus said:
What experience are you referring to?

Your experience of God or the creator or how ever you want to say. What did you see? I want the entire experience including how you felt.

Cephus · Mar 3, 2015

Unibeauty said:
Your

Your experience of God or the creator or how ever you want to say. What did you see? I want the entire experience including how you felt.

I never said I had one.

SkepticX · Mar 4, 2015

Unibeauty said:
Who is anyone to say. I asked if you had done drugs for a reason. People hear and see things it maybe real. I don't know. Try to stop and you can determine reality. Sometimes reality is too much that is why people find an escape. Still have to wake up in the morning or you would be dead. Be grateful for the air, a bed to sleep in and the few and far between who care.

Experiencing God

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