Experiencing God

[sojourner]

No, I said you couldn't use it in a rational argument, which you can't. Everyone sitting around just expressing their personal and subjective opinions accomplishes nothing except flapping lips. There are no rational theological arguments for exactly that purpose.

I disagree. Theological arguments are rational. Just as discussing relationships, aesthetics, etc., can also be rational.

 

[Cephus]

I disagree. Theological arguments are rational. Just as discussing relationships, aesthetics, etc., can also be rational.

You can disagree until the cows come home, the meaning of rational is "based on or in accordance with reason or logic." You don't just get to make up your own meaning to existing words.

 

[God lover]

Do you believe that God notices what we do?
Do you believe He ever reacts to what we do?

I think God especially notices the heart. But I kinda like what Thana points out about God acting on God's plan rather than us earning His attention. However, I think God is watching and in fact desires our goodness of heart and the actions that follow. I think God meets us in prayer and worship, which are actions. I haven't always had the same uplifting and really profound experiences in worship and prayer that I sometimes do. So, I think God isn't always gonna blow like a mighty wind and my own actions s during my days dont always warrant God's Spirit to "manifest" (I think there is a better Greek word if anyone knows it) in my heart and indeed to my fingers, toes and scalp.

I think you're both on to something.


I totally agree that God is real. After some time the reality of God in our lives is so constantly occurring that one goes from faith to knowing. And then as new doubts rise up, we find our understanding of God keeps growing.

If we don't want to just talk about feeling God we can talk about how Christ healed people from blindness and crippling diseases. This kind of thing is still happening today. It has happened in my life and in the lives of people I know personally.

 

[sojourner]

You can disagree until the cows come home, the meaning of rational is "based on or in accordance with reason or logic." You don't just get to make up your own meaning to existing words.

Reason and logic can apply to the subjective as well as to the objective.

 

[Cephus]

Reason and logic can apply to the subjective as well as to the objective.

Describe how they can apply to a purely subjective claim like the existence of a god. Provide detail.

 

[sojourner]

Describe how they can apply to a purely subjective claim like the existence of a god. Provide detail.

Describe how they don't apply to a purely subjective claim like one's opinion of beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the reaction of the beholder in beholding beauty is rational, in light of her/his subjective experience of having beheld what s/he considers to be beautiful.

 

[Cephus]

Describe how they don't apply to a purely subjective claim like one's opinion of beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the reaction of the beholder in beholding beauty is rational, in light of her/his subjective experience of having beheld what s/he considers to be beautiful.

You're the one making the claim, it rests entirely on your shoulders to defend it. Shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy for a reason. Either you can do it or you can't and I think it's blatantly clear that you can't.

The fact is, you don't have the slightest clue what the words that you're using actually mean. Being "reasonable" does not mean that you can formulate some reason why you think the way that you do. Being rational requires that yon comply with the understood and accepted laws of logic and reason. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[sojourner]

You're the one making the claim, it rests entirely on your shoulders to defend it. Shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy for a reason. Either you can do it or you can't and I think it's blatantly clear that you can't.

The fact is, you don't have the slightest clue what the words that you're using actually mean. Being "reasonable" does not mean that you can formulate some reason why you think the way that you do. Being rational requires that yon comply with the understood and accepted laws of logic and reason. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

So, what you're saying is that it's not reasonable to like art, music, poetry, or a sunset. What you're saying is that one's opinions can't be reasonable.

The fact is that you're so egotistically caught up in empiricism that you've lost sight of what is actually reasonable. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Cephus]

So, what you're saying is that it's not reasonable to like art, music, poetry, or a sunset. What you're saying is that one's opinions can't be reasonable.

The fact is that you're so egotistically caught up in empiricism that you've lost sight of what is actually reasonable. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

All of those things actually exist in reality. Do try for a more applicable example, won't you? And a person's opinions are reasonable, if and only if they are actually reasonable, ie. following the laws of logic and reason. Someone's opinion that the Easter Bunny is real is not a reasonable opinion.

The real fact here is that you're so emotionally caught up in your religious beliefs, and in religion in general, that you've no clue that your beliefs are utterly idiotic. You don't want to appear foolish so you're pretending that what you believe actually conforms to the laws of logic and reason and are clenching your eyes closed, stuffing your fingers in your ears and screaming "I'm reasonable!" over and over and over every time anyone disagrees. You're just wrong.

 

[Muffled]

I did nothing for my experience with God. I was completely unworthy of the experience. It was purely Grace.

I believe you should tell us about it becasue it should be informative.

 

[Demonslayer]

If we don't want to just talk about feeling God we can talk about how Christ healed people from blindness and crippling diseases. This kind of thing is still happening today. It has happened in my life and in the lives of people I know personally.

How come he never heals any amputees?

 

[Muffled]

It's not that hard. The definition of reason is to "think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic." The definition of objective is "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts." If we are concerned with coming up with factually correct views of the universe, as opposed to emotionally-based (the definition of objective), we cannot use subjective, emotional ideas and opinions (again, the definition of objective) to support pre-existing emotional beliefs, based on nothing but blind faith. One of the core concepts in objective science is falsifiability. You must be able to examine your positions and experiences to see if existing knowledge has falsified them, and also, you must be able to conceive of a set of facts that, if found, would falsify your position or experience. If you cannot, you are not doing science. You are not using reason. You are not operating objectively. All of these things are not done with religion. It is inherently irrational by its very nature.

I beleive I have not reasoned by personal feelings or opinions which is more than I can say for you. Faced with the facts you come up with some standard of objectivity to excuse you from reasoning about the facts which is a purely emotional response.

 

[Muffled]

If we don't want to just talk about feeling God we can talk about how Christ healed people from blindness and crippling diseases. This kind of thing is still happening today. It has happened in my life and in the lives of people I know personally.

How come he never heals any amputees?

I believe healing is not a right but it can be a mercy or a grace.

 

[Demonslayer]

I believe healing is not a right but it can be a mercy or a grace.

The idea of healing never made any sense to me. First of all, God only heals people of things that can go away naturally to begin with. Completely blind people never see again and if you lose your arm Jesus never puts it back.

Then for the other stuff like when tumors disappear and people claim God healed them...didn't God give you the tumor to begin with? If God wanted you to live, why not just never let the tumor appear in the first place?

Additionally, from a logical standpoint it makes no sense. I'm told God has a plan for us all. If this is true, the plan for me is to either die of cancer or not. If his plan for me is to die of cancer, I'll die of cancer. If he plan for me is NOT to die of cancer, and I get a tumor but then God removes it, I was never going to die of cancer in the first place because that wasn't part of God's plan. Unless we're saying God doesn't really have a plan for us all and he changes his mind as he goes. (I shall make Demonslayer die of this tumor...nay, I have changed My mind.)

 

[Cephus]

I beleive I have not reasoned by personal feelings or opinions which is more than I can say for you. Faced with the facts you come up with some standard of objectivity to excuse you from reasoning about the facts which is a purely emotional response.

You can believe what you want, you can make whatever claims that you want, it matters what you can prove at the end of the day and without objective evidence for the things that you believe, without a logical and rational basis for what you believe, you are, like it or not, operating on emotion and personal opinions. Tell yourself another lie if it makes you happy, it doesn't change reality.

 

[Muffled]

The idea of healing never made any sense to me. First of all, God only heals people of things that can go away naturally to begin with. Completely blind people never see again and if you lose your arm Jesus never puts it back.

Then for the other stuff like when tumors disappear and people claim God healed them...didn't God give you the tumor to begin with? If God wanted you to live, why not just never let the tumor appear in the first place?

Additionally, from a logical standpoint it makes no sense. I'm told God has a plan for us all. If this is true, the plan for me is to either die of cancer or not. If his plan for me is to die of cancer, I'll die of cancer. If he plan for me is NOT to die of cancer, and I get a tumor but then God removes it, I was never going to die of cancer in the first place because that wasn't part of God's plan. Unless we're saying God doesn't really have a plan for us all and he changes his mind as he goes. (I shall make Demonslayer die of this tumor...nay, I have changed My mind.)

I believe you have the gist of it. God does not change His mind. However we do all the time and experience is a great teacher.

 

[Muffled]

This is my first experience of God when I was thirteen years old:

I had a record ( a music disc that could be played on a turntable) that my mother did not like. One day I found it broken and she said it was an accident but I felt she did it on purpose. I went to a secluded place and rpayed to God for Him to punish my mother and waited for His answer. He said to me: Do you love your mother? I said: Yes. He said: Do you love your mother more than the record? I said: Yes. He said: Then does it matter whether she did it on purpose or not? I didn't answer but I could see the logic in saying it didn't matter because I loved my mother.

At the age of thirteen I was pretty innocent and no-one told me I shouldn't hear from God so I simply accepted it as a natural occurance.

 

[Cephus]

This is my first experience of God when I was thirteen years old:

I had a record ( a music disc that could be played on a turntable) that my mother did not like. One day I found it broken and she said it was an accident but I felt she did it on purpose. I went to a secluded place and rpayed to God for Him to punish my mother and waited for His answer. He said to me: Do you love your mother? I said: Yes. He said: Do you love your mother more than the record? I said: Yes. He said: Then does it matter whether she did it on purpose or not? I didn't answer but I could see the logic in saying it didn't matter because I loved my mother.

At the age of thirteen I was pretty innocent and no-one told me I shouldn't hear from God so I simply accepted it as a natural occurance.

How exactly did God say these things to you? You were most likely having an internal dialogue with yourself. That's pretty **** poor if you ask me.

 

[Muffled]

How exactly did God say these things to you? You were most likely having an internal dialogue with yourself. That's pretty **** poor if you ask me.

I believe I do have dialogues with myself and I know when I am doing so. The voice spoke to my mind just as my spirit can speak to my mind and my mind can speak to itself. You have an a priori view of what is likely but you have no proof. I have no proof that it was God speaking to me other than the fact that I called out to God and watied for an answer. I was not in thinking mode but in listening mode. I do have a tendency to think when someone is talking to me but that makes me a bad listener. I stilled my thinking because I wanted an answer and was listening attentively.

 

[Cephus]

I believe I do have dialogues with myself and I know when I am doing so. The voice spoke to my mind just as my spirit can speak to my mind and my mind can speak to itself. You have an a priori view of what is likely but you have no proof. I have no proof that it was God speaking to me other than the fact that I called out to God and watied for an answer. I was not in thinking mode but in listening mode. I do have a tendency to think when someone is talking to me but that makes me a bad listener. I stilled my thinking because I wanted an answer and was listening attentively.

But you haven't proven that. The fact is, all kinds of people are sure they're talking to all kinds of things and there's no evidence at all that it's actually true. You've crafted this narrative, entirely unskeptically, because it makes you feel good, and you're presenting it as proof that your beliefs are well-founded? Seriously?

Color me entirely unimpressed in your reasoning skills.