Experiencing God

[Agondonter]

There is no "before." Consciousness and the objects of consciousness give rise to each other.

 

[Blastcat]

Yes, it's okay. It's a metaphor, not an insult. And no reasonable society would see it as anything else.

Wrong.

 

[Blastcat]

He is saying he is one with the Source, which is the Father: "I and the Father are One", which is to say that Jesus and the Father are of the same ESSENCE, but not of the same FORM.

Please describe the wonderful difference between what you mean bey FORM and ESSENCE. We are talking about some "spiritual" thingy. What possible "FORM" do you imagine it has? [/QUOTE]

Word salad isn't going to make you sound any more rational.

The 'Father' is the Creator, the source of all that is; the background of existence against which all things exist.

Wow, that sounds deep!.. To me, completely meaningless, of course. BUT, heck, you can believe it all you like. Why should anyone else is a mystery to me. Do you have ... any supporting evidence for the above assertions?

Or.. is it an irrational poetical mish-mash meant to impress the gullilble?

However, jesus also says that he is 'not of this world', meaning he is not about what is created, but about the source of the creation; not about 'existence' but about 'Being', which is 'I Am', and not 'I exist', because existence is in Space and Time (ie; 'history', as Abraham was), while Being is not in Space or Time: it is eternal and infinite.

Wow, you SURE know what Jesus means, don't you?
I have to wonder how it is you GOT that deep into the delusion, godnotgod.

Abraham was born and died, a product of history; Jesus is Unborn and Deathless, 'not of this world', even though his flesh was, since he had two natures. Campeche?

What we "Campeche" is that you believe this stuff. But WHY .. that's a mystery.
When did you first accept this indoctrination?

Surely, you didn't make it all up did you?

There cannot be sound without the background of silence; there cannot be something without the background of no-thing-ness. You know black because of white; good because of evil; right because of wrong; light because of darkness, etc, etc. Think about it.

We have. It's nonsense. Just because you can make dichotomies, you imagine that you have proved something. Well, you haven't proved anything other than how your thinking is really bad. But as long as it sounds deep, your job is done.

Illusions come and go, and so does this 'material' world. The real world Jesus is referring to that he IS of, is the world that does NOT come and go.

So, I suppose that you have evidence for this world that doesn't come and go? ... I didn't think so. But you believe it anyway..
I wonder where you got this stuff from.

Putting stock in this world can only bring suffering, because it does not last, and it does not last because it is an illusion.

You sound like you really believe this stuff. I just wonder why you do.

Pure Consciousness is already in place BEFORE words or thoughts.

And you know that because.....

 

[Agondonter]

Wrong.

I said no reasonable society would see it as anything other than a metaphor. Does it look like we live in a reasonable society?

 

[godnotgod]

Please describe the wonderful difference between what you mean bey FORM and ESSENCE. We are talking about some "spiritual" thingy. What possible "FORM" do you imagine it has?

Word salad isn't going to make you sound any more rational.

What possible form do YOU imagine it has? I never said that it has form. In fact, I said it is formless.

No, we are not talking about a 'spiritual thingy'; there are no 'things' in the spiritual experience.

Wow, that sounds deep!.. To me, completely meaningless, of course. BUT, heck, you can believe it all you like. Why should anyone else is a mystery to me. Do you have ... any supporting evidence for the above assertions?

Or.. is it an irrational poetical mish-mash meant to impress the gullilble?

Wow! You, the gullible, have been impressed, by a statement with no intention of doing so! How novel!

Do you know how to read intuitively? Not!

You see, I was merely mouthing the doctrine as it is believed by some, and not necessarily that I do so. Understand?

Wow, you SURE know what Jesus means, don't you?
I have to wonder how it is you GOT that deep into the delusion, godnotgod.

It has nothing to do with anything 'deep'. It has to do with what is right under your nose. You DO have a nose, yes?

Tell me something: how is it that you know the difference between delusion and reality?

What we "Campeche" is that you believe this stuff. But WHY .. that's a mystery.
When did you first accept this indoctrination?

Surely, you didn't make it all up did you?

You read about a mountain in a book, never having been there. Then you go to the actual mountain and experience 'mountain' first-hand. Is there a difference between these two? Do you 'campeche' the difference between the meal and the menu? Or do you continue to eat the menu? If you want to experience the meal, you've got to put the menu aside.

THE DESCRIPTION IS NOT THE DESCRIBED!

'First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then, there is'

(Who is this 'we' that 'campeches'? Are you trying to make yourself appear larger than you really are? )

We have. It's nonsense. Just because you can make dichotomies, you imagine that you have proved something. Well, you haven't proved anything other than how your thinking is really bad. But as long as it sounds deep, your job is done.

'We', again? There are several of you? Or just one with multiple personalities?

I am not interested in proving anything to anyone. Just go see for yourself, or do you not trust your own mind? If you still insist that what I have said is nonsense, then I invite you to show me how you can experience sound without silence. You can't, so you won't.

So, I suppose that you have evidence for this world that doesn't come and go? ... I didn't think so. But you believe it anyway..
I wonder where you got this stuff from.

It is obvious even to the rational mind. What comes and goes cannot do so without a background that does not come and go. Otherwise, you could not determine that it comes and goes. Look at my avatar. You see a figure against a figureless background. That figure cannot be determined to be what it is without the figureless background against and out of which it is emerging.

The background is in place before and after the figure comes into play, and after it vanishes, just as the ocean wave comes and goes while the ocean is always present.

See how easy it is to actually SEE something, when you allow your mind to do so?

You sound like you really believe this stuff. I just wonder why you do.

Maybe it's not a matter of belief.

What is obvious requires no belief. You only continue to wonder why because you entertain preconceived notions about what I believe or not believe. IOW, you conceptualize about reality, rather than to see it as it actually is.

Now you're wondering how it is that I know this about you, aren't you? heh...heh...

And you know that because.....

I'm going to give you a golden opportunity to learn to use your own mind here. So stop your mental chatter and just try to SEE, without thought, what is in place before words and thoughts. Now ask yourself: who, or what, is it that is looking, without naming it? If you can answer that, you will become instantly enlightened.

See how simple? Why, even a caveman can do it!

 

[Blastcat]

I said no reasonable society would see it as anything other than a metaphor. Does it look like we live in a reasonable society?

I'm reasonable, I'm in a society, and you are wrong.

 

[godnotgod]

There is no "before." Consciousness and the objects of consciousness give rise to each other.

That statement is a reflection of the Heart Sutra from Buddhism, and it is true. I believe the Buddha was referring to perceptual reality, ie; what we know via the 5 senses. But I ask you: via what state of awareness was the Buddha able to determine the truth of his statement?

 

[Blastcat]

That statement is a reflection of the Heart Sutra from Buddhism, and it is true. I believe the Buddha was referring to perceptual reality, ie; what we know via the 5 senses. But I ask you: via what state of awareness was the Buddha able to determine the truth of his statement?

How do you KNOW that it's true?
By faith?

 

[godnotgod]

How do you KNOW that it's true?
By faith?

No. How do you know that the water is cold when you accidentally fall into a mountain lake?

When you are asleep, dreaming, you do not know you are dreaming. When you awaken, you see that what you thought was reality is only a dream. If you dreamt of being a dragon-slayer, and were someone in your dream to ask you: 'Are you really a dragon-slayer?', you would, of course, answer in the affirmative. But were someone to ask the same question of you once awakened, you would, of course, answer 'Of course not! I was merely dreaming!'

We think we are awake in this world, but there is a higher awakening by which we see clearly that this life is only a dream, and that the character we play is only a fiction, the true Self being that which has awakened.

'Thou hast nor youth nor age, but, as it were, an after-dinner sleep, dreaming on both'

TS Elliot

 

[Blastcat]

We think we are awake in this world, but there is a higher awakening by which we see clearly that this life is only a dream, and that the character we play is only a fiction, the true Self being that which has awakened.

You mistake an analogy of something real with reality itself.

 

[Demonslayer]

If you dreamt of being a dragon-slayer, and were someone in your dream to ask you: 'Are you really a dragon-slayer?', you would, of course, answer in the affirmative.

I'm a demon slayer. In real life, I kill demons. They really aren' too tough after all the hype.

 

[Blastcat]

I'm a demon slayer. In real life, I kill demons. They really aren' too tough after all the hype.

If you pretend the demons are real, they are. Because pretend is the Buddhist's way.
As long as it sounds deep, IT IS!

 

[Demonslayer]

If you pretend the demons are real, they are

I've been daring demons to infest me for years now, ain't seen one yet.

 

[Blastcat]

I've been daring demons to infest me for years now, ain't seen one yet.

But you might have been PRETEND infested.
You should ask godnotgod about that.. he seems to be our resident pretend fantasy expert.

 

[godnotgod]

You mistake an analogy of something real with reality itself.

You see? You actually believe this to be reality, when you are only dreaming. But you won't know that until you awaken. This dream you think to be 'reality' seems far more 'real' than the reality experienced in dream-sleep because it is an illusion of a much higher order. Dream-sleep reality vanishes upon awakening, but this Third Level of Consciousness, otherwise known as 'Waking Sleep', or 'Identification', does NOT vanish upon awakening. Only by entering into the Fourth Level of Consciousness, that of Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, will you be able to see that the character you play in the drama of the Third Level is purely fictional.

The most recent clue from the science community that this 'material' world is an illusion comes from Quantum Mechanics, which is saying that ALL of the mass of the atom is created by fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields, rendering this 'reality' to be purely VIRTUAL in nature, confirming what the East has told us for centuries: that this material world is maya.

 

[godnotgod]

I've been daring demons to infest me for years now, ain't seen one yet.

Maybe it's all in your head.

 

[godnotgod]

If you pretend the demons are real, they are. Because pretend is the Buddhist's way.
As long as it sounds deep, IT IS!

You don't know the first thing about Buddhism.

 

[Blastcat]

You see? You actually believe this to be reality, when you are only dreaming. .

You see?
You actually believe this to be a dream.

You watch too many movies. Believe this is "all a dream" all you like. It still hurts if you jump off a roof.I hardly see how your analogy matters. But.. I guess you took that red pill, didn't you? You know something that none of us know.

But you won't know that until you awaken. .

Right.
Neither will YOU.


So MANY supernaturalists of ALL KINDS tell me that they know what comes “after” death.
They also have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever.

But they can all pretend.
You aren’t any different. People LOVE their delusions, after all.

This dream you think to be 'reality' seems far more 'real' than the reality experienced in dream-sleep because it is an illusion of a much higher order.

You keep mistaking an analogy for a FACT.

I just watched the movie "Inception" it was fun.
I love to eat popcorn,too.

Here is a hint: Stories aren't always REAL..
Movies are on the screen, imagination is in the BRAIN, and popcorn exists independently of either.

But since you don't give a SHRED of evidence for your analogy BUT your analogy, I suppose any rational discussion is out of the question.
I don't expect you to think clearly about REALITY if you think that it's all a dream.

Now, back to bed.

The most recent clue from the science community that this 'material' world is an illusion comes from Quantum Mechanics, which is saying that ALL of the mass of the atom is created by fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields, rendering this 'reality' to be purely VIRTUAL in nature, confirming what the East has told us for centuries: that this material world is maya.

Just because scientists have discovered the HIGGS FIELD in no way proves that reality is VIRTUAL.

I do think that you quite LITERALLY live in a dream.
Dream on, if you insist.

I’m sure that it’s a happy dream, after all.

 

[godnotgod]

You see?
You actually believe this to be a dream.

You watch too many movies. Believe this is "all a dream" all you like. It still hurts if you jump off a roof.I hardly see how your analogy matters. But.. I guess you took that red pill, didn't you? You know something that none of us know.

I don't know anything that you don't know. It's just that you haven't learned to see yet.

You haven't been paying attention. Jumping off a roof and experiencing the resulting pain is an experience in PERCEPTUAL REALITY. The dream you are in says its real, but as I said, this dream is of a higher calibre than your ordinary garden variety type dream. Got that? That's why you continue to think this dream to be reality, as you perceive it via your 5 senses to be so. But the senses are deceptive, as we all know. So what I am referring to when I talk about awakening, is a higher state of awareness that does not rely on the senses. We call this type of awareness that of Ultimate Reality. It is transcendent of the 5 senses. That is awakening.

Believing this to be a dream has nothing to do with knowing that it is a dream. Only via awakening can you know that. Until then, you will swear up and down that it is real. You continue to dwell in the state of Identification, which is pure fiction.

 

[godnotgod]

Just because scientists have discovered the HIGGS FIELD in no way proves that reality is VIRTUAL.

I do think that you quite LITERALLY live in a dream.
Dream on, if you insist.

I’m sure that it’s a happy dream, after all.

Now you use erroneous logic.

The discovery of the Higgs Field is not proof that reality is virtual. The proof is the discovery that fluctuations in both the Quantum and the Higgs Fields create all of the mass of the atom, and that mass is not real, but virtual.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations/