Explain this logically christians....

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But you have a limited perspective, right?

Are you saying that if we had a full perspective and appreciation, that we'd be able to see this tragedy as all for the best?

 

[Kathryn]

Okay... so when a person dies, even if this doesn't constitute harm to the person who died, it constitutes harm to those around that person.

Doesn't this still meant that needless death creates suffering that would be better prevented?

Needless death? What's your alternative? Are you saying people shouldnt' die?

 

[Commoner]

But you have a limited perspective, right?

That's right Kathryn. But the magical trolls in my closet are omnipotent and they've said absolutely nothing about me misinterpreting the situation.

You cannot make a claim that god has knowledge to make his shrugging his shoulders morally superior because of exactly the same limitations that I have. He's supposed to be all-powerful. If he wanted to be viewed as loving and good, he would have provided his justification. As is, he either has none or does not expect to be viewed as a good and loving god.

 

[Kathryn]

Are you saying that if we had a full perspective and appreciation, that we'd be able to see this tragedy as all for the best?

What I am saying is that if we had a full perspective, we would be able to place death in a better perspective. In the end, I don't think that time served on earth in our earthly bodies equates value to a human life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Needless death? What's your alternative? Are you saying people shouldnt' die?

I'm saying that parents shouldn't outlive their children.

I'm saying that the death by a drunk driver of a mother and her two young children is a tragedy in a way that peaceful deaths at ripe old age surrounded by their children and grandchildren would not be.

You know, it almost sounds like you're saying that what people go through doesn't matter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I am saying is that if we had a full perspective, we would be able to place death in a better perspective. In the end, I don't think that time served on earth in our earthly bodies equates value to a human life.

So if we can infer from God's actions that the best outcome is the one where the mother and her children die in a car crash, doesn't this present us with a model of behaviour for us to follow?

After all, if we're only limited humans with limited perspective, then we could improve things by following the example of God, who is free from these human limitations and therefore able to act much more morally than we could ever hope to do, right?

This incident shows us that the proper thing to do is to not intervene to save the lives of the victims of drunk drivers. Even though we can't undersand how this would be, through our trust in God's wisdom, we can be sure that the right thing to do is to not save the lives of these people, right?

After all, it's not like it's even a matter of saving a life... it's really just a matter of a small bit of "time served" on Earth.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm saying that parents shouldn't outlive their children.

I'm saying that the death by a drunk driver of a mother and her two young children is a tragedy in a way that peaceful deaths at ripe old age surrounded by their children and grandchildren would not be.

You know, it almost sounds like you're saying that what people go through doesn't matter.

This is where faith comes in.

I am 49 years old. I've had tragedies in my life, including the stillborn birth of a twin and other heartbreaking, crushing things that I wouldn't have chosen in my life.

I can honestly say that at this point in my life, I can look back over all the events in my life, and see that in spite of the heartache, the whole tapestry is mine - no one else's -and there is beauty interwoven with the pain. It's called life, and I embrace it. If I didn't know pain, I couldn't appreciate the joy to the fullest.

Please don't talk to me as if I couldn't relate to the concept of untimely loss and great pain. I've had some of all of it. And I found strength in my faith to weather it.

 

[waitasec]

So in other words, you don't really have anything meaningful to add to the conversation.

My comments might have seemed terse, or even sarcastic, but there's actually some deep thought behind them. I just condensed them rather than pontificating (I've already gone into great detail on them in earlier posts on this thread).

wet socks are real uncomfortable... don't cha think?


ahh common kathryn,
just put on a fresh pair and you'll feel much better
:sarcastic

 

[Kathryn]

So if we can infer from God's actions that the best outcome is the one where the mother and her children die in a car crash, doesn't this present us with a model of behaviour for us to follow?

After all, if we're only limited humans with limited perspective, then we could improve things by following the example of God, who is free from these human limitations and therefore able to act much more morally than we could ever hope to do, right?

This incident shows us that the proper thing to do is to not intervene to save the lives of the victims of drunk drivers. Even though we can't undersand how this would be, through our trust in God's wisdom, we can be sure that the right thing to do is to not save the lives of these people, right?

After all, it's not like it's even a matter of saving a life... it's really just a matter of a small bit of "time served" on Earth.

God has his wisdom - and He has given us directives as well. He fulfills His plan - and we are directed to uphold our own values and His directives.

This includes empathy toward others, doing unto others as we would have done to us, and behaving responsibly and generously.

We obey, respond, and then when we've done what we can do within our human limitations, we submit our will to God.

That's the Christian perspective. You can do with it what you will.

 

[Kathryn]

wet socks are real uncomfortable... don't cha think?


ahh common kathryn,
just put on a fresh pair and you'll feel much better
:sarcastic

So - you don't have a better plan then.

I thought as much.

 

[waitasec]

So - you don't have a better plan then.

I thought as much.

i told you...
fresh dry socks socks are great...i highly recommend it...

 

[Kathryn]

i told you...
fresh dry socks socks are great...i highly recommend it...

Still no substance.

If you want to understand where I'm coming from, scroll back through this thread and read my MULTITUDINOUS posts which go into much detail about my perspective. I'm disinclined to repeat myself.

 

[waitasec]

Please don't talk to me as if I couldn't relate to the concept of untimely loss and great pain. I've had some of all of it. And I found strength in my faith to weather it.

i'm curious kathryn, do you think you're the only one who has a concept of pain or loss?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God has his wisdom - and He has given us directives as well. He fulfills His plan - and we are directed to uphold our own values and His directives.

This includes empathy toward others, doing unto others as we would have done to us, and behaving responsibly and generously.

But how is it empathetic, responsible or generous to not do what we know would create the best outcome?

If God really does give us a gift when he allows two children and their mother to be killed by a drunk driver, how wonderful would it be for us to have the opportunity to give the same divine gift to someone else?

And it's not as if it's even hard - we don't have to do anything. All we have to do is sit by and do nothing the next time a collision like that happens.

 

[Kathryn]

i'm curious kathryn, do you think you're the only one who has a concept of pain or loss?

How could you possibly deduce that from what I posted?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How could you possibly deduce that from what I posted?

Your posts in this thread so far have seemed surprisingly unsympathetic.

 

[Kathryn]

But how is it empathetic, responsible or generous to not do what we know would create the best outcome?

If God really does give us a gift when he allows two children and their mother to be killed by a drunk driver, how wonderful would it be for us to have the opportunity to give the same divine gift to someone else?

And it's not as if it's even hard - we don't have to do anything. All we have to do is sit by and do nothing the next time a collision like that happens.

We have a limited human perspective. Sheeze, I've already covered this extensively in this thread and I really don't intend to hash it out again. In fact, sorry - I just won't. If you're interested, scroll back through the posts and read what I've already posted. If you're not that interested, I can't say that I blame you - but...then I'm also not that interested in repeating myself.

 

[waitasec]

How could you possibly deduce that from what I posted?

well you assumed 9-10th's under minded your pain? why?

 

[Kathryn]

Your posts in this thread so far have seemed surprisingly unsympathetic.

Have you read the entire thread? I've explained myself in great detail throughout it.

I'm not unsympathetic. In fact, I do a lot of volunteer work with various groups of people who have experienced great hardship in life BECAUSE I am empathetic to their losses. I have such empathy because I've EXPERIENCED great losses myself - and learned that I can survive them.

I hope to be able to impart what I've learned to others and help them survive as well. It may surprise you, but I'm actually sought out as a source of strength and counsel within my community.

One step toward emotional health after loss (not the first step but definitely ONE step) is to put our experiences into perspective - into the perspective of our own lives as a whole, and also the human experience as a whole.

 

[Commoner]

We have a limited human perspective. Sheeze, I've already covered this extensively in this thread and I really don't intend to hash it out again. In fact, sorry - I just won't. If you're interested, scroll back through the posts and read what I've already posted. If you're not that interested, I can't say that I blame you - but...then I'm also not that interested in repeating myself.

There is nothing in your posts that would justify the belief that what we interpret as tragedies are anything other than that. The only thing you've done is repeated your unfounded position as you've done countless times in this thread. Sheeze...