Explain this logically christians....

[Kathryn]

Well wouldn't it be better if people died of old age rather than tragedy? It's still death, just that life is prolonged.

See, there you go again - another perfect example of "If I were God, I wouldn't do it that way."

So everyone should die of old age? In their sleep? What if they are jerks and make life miserable for everyone else? What if they are evil people? Oh, but OK, if everything was fair, there wouldn't be evil people...there wouldn't be jerks...Everyone would just be nice all their lives and then die in their sleep. OK, so what would be your perfect cut off point - 75? 85? What if people don't want to live to be 85? Or what if they don't want to die at 75? How is either of those cut off points fair or right? If everyone died at 85 - is that fair? Well, if they live till 85, does everyone get a Mercedes to drive up to that point? No? How is that fair? OK, everyone gets a Mercedes. Not feasible? But we have to be FAIR!

Life isn't fair. There is a wide range of disparity in this world -between lifestyles, material possessions, health, self expression, hell, even weather. But one thing is abundantly clear - personal joy is NOT guaranteed by any of these things. Life doesn't have to be fair in order for us to be joyful and to lead a fulfilling life.

 

[Koldo]

Life isn't fair. There is a wide range of disparity in this world -between lifestyles, material possessions, health, self expression, hell, even weather. But one thing is abundantly clear - personal joy is NOT guaranteed by any of these things. Life doesn't have to be fair in order for us to be joyful and to lead a fulfilling life.

Are you serious? This is rather funny.
As far as i know, you still have all your limbs, a place to live, family, food to eat, and so on. It is easy to say something like this in your situation. It is so easy that it is even funny.

 

[Commoner]

See, there you go again - another perfect example of "If I were God, I wouldn't do it that way."

So everyone should die of old age? In their sleep? What if they are jerks and make life miserable for everyone else? What if they are evil people? Oh, but OK, if everything was fair, there wouldn't be evil people...there wouldn't be jerks...Everyone would just be nice all their lives and then die in their sleep. OK, so what would be your perfect cut off point - 75? 85? What if people don't want to live to be 85? Or what if they don't want to die at 75? How is either of those cut off points fair or right? If everyone died at 85 - is that fair? Well, if they live till 85, does everyone get a Mercedes to drive up to that point? No? How is that fair? OK, everyone gets a Mercedes. Not feasible? But we have to be FAIR!

Life isn't fair. There is a wide range of disparity in this world -between lifestyles, material possessions, health, self expression, hell, even weather. But one thing is abundantly clear - personal joy is NOT guaranteed by any of these things. Life doesn't have to be fair in order for us to be joyful and to lead a fulfilling life.

???

 

[Kathryn]

Are you serious? This is rather funny.
As far as i know, you still have all your limbs, a place to live, family, food to eat, and so on. It is easy to say something like this in your situation. It is so easy that it is even funny.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that I have never experienced great, heartbreaking, crushing loss?

Sorry, but you don't know me well enough to judge me like this.

Furthermore, as Corrie ten Boom and Joni Earekson Tada so beautifully prove through their lives, all the things you mention simply are not necessary in order to be at peace and yes, even joyful.

Power to Change - joni eareckson becomes a quadriplegic after a reckless dive

Corrie ten Boom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check out these guys - wow, they seem pretty driven to lead fulfilling and productive lives. And I bet their attitudes are pretty good too.

Frankly, your post is a bit insulting. You seem to think that those who have experienced great loss in their lives are incapable of leading a full and joyful life - or are somehow held to lower expectations or have less potential.

 

[waitasec]

I never said I know God's plan. But I believe that God HAS a plan.

which is...

that we live in a temporarily flawed world, but that this flawed world will be made perfect and whole in His time- and He doesn't have to answer to us about His timing. He is omnipotent and we are not.

seems like a definitive explanation, that doesn't explain anything really. :sorry1:

would it be fair to say your interpretation of "a flawed world" is my interpretation of natures indifference?


i'm curious about your thoughts on this...

There's no logically consistent option that allows us to conclude that letting a young family die in a car crash is a good thing when God does it but a bad thing when we do it.

i wouldn't necessarily say a good thing but an acceptable thing

would the illogical option be to give god the benefit of the doubt that letting a young family die in a car crash is acceptable but not acceptable if we allow for it to happen?

 

[Kathryn]

which is...

seems like a definitive explanation, that doesn't explain anything really. :sorry1:

God's not a vending machine which pops out explanations when we insert a quarter. He reveals his purposes in His time. I've lived long enough to understand that and to accept that His purpose may not be clear to me when I demand it, but that it will become clear to me over time.

would it be fair to say your interpretation of "a flawed world" is my interpretation of natures indifference?

You can think of it that way if it makes you feel better.

i'm curious about your thoughts on this...

would the illogical option be to give god the benefit of the doubt that letting a young family die in a car crash is acceptable but not acceptable if we allow for it to happen?

Not sure what you mean with this question - "Would the ILLOGICAL option be..."

The logical option in my opinion is to follow God's directive to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This would mean that whenever it is within our power to stave off human suffering, we should do so.

Do what we can and leave the rest to God.

 

[Koldo]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that I have never experienced great, heartbreaking, crushing loss?

Sorry, but you don't know me well enough to judge me like this.

Most people have but that doesn't even compare the slighest to what some people suffer. Can you imagine living your life with your body fully burned? You and me do not know what real suffering is, admit it.

Furthermore, as Corrie ten Boom and Joni Earekson Tada so beautifully prove through their lives, all the things you mention simply are not necessary in order to be at peace and yes, even joyful.

Power to Change - joni eareckson becomes a quadriplegic after a reckless dive

Corrie ten Boom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check out these guys - wow, they seem pretty driven to lead fulfilling and productive lives. And I bet their attitudes are pretty good too.

Frankly, your post is a bit insulting. You seem to think that those who have experienced great loss in their lives are incapable of leading a full and joyful life - or are somehow held to lower expectations or have less potential.

In fact, i don't think anyone can have a real joyful life [I have different standards for such terms which imply ,for example, the non existence of a physical body]....

Anyway, i do not think those people you gave as examples can be said to have a joyful life [according to usual standards], even more joni. They simply moved on and accepted this fact.You would have to live inside their minds to know how they actually feel. To show me a glimpse of their lives and take that if it was an example of their entire lives is quite funny.

 

[ninerbuff]

See, there you go again - another perfect example of "If I were God, I wouldn't do it that way."

So everyone should die of old age? In their sleep? What if they are jerks and make life miserable for everyone else? What if they are evil people? Oh, but OK, if everything was fair, there wouldn't be evil people...there wouldn't be jerks...Everyone would just be nice all their lives and then die in their sleep. OK, so what would be your perfect cut off point - 75? 85? What if people don't want to live to be 85? Or what if they don't want to die at 75? How is either of those cut off points fair or right? If everyone died at 85 - is that fair? Well, if they live till 85, does everyone get a Mercedes to drive up to that point? No? How is that fair? OK, everyone gets a Mercedes. Not feasible? But we have to be FAIR!

Life isn't fair. There is a wide range of disparity in this world -between lifestyles, material possessions, health, self expression, hell, even weather. But one thing is abundantly clear - personal joy is NOT guaranteed by any of these things. Life doesn't have to be fair in order for us to be joyful and to lead a fulfilling life.

Which is why it makes more sense that a god DOESN'T exist. All this BS that this god is good, loving, etc. is what humans of religion just WANT to believe, when in reality life is about what you need to do to survive. I know that ***** happens and that there aren't things we have control of and some we do. Demographics, your skin color, your upbringing, your attitude and other factors will dictate how part of your life will lived.

 

[ninerbuff]

But people turn to psychologist who are paid to care? Is that any worse?

If they truly cared then they wouldn't get paid. Lol, psychologist's don't get involved with their patients, they are just there to observe and provide feedback. I also believe that going to one is needed because of lack of communication with people that are supposed to be close to you and the inability to convey one's feelings.
I know that cultures are different. Depending on how you were raised is how you depict "closeness" of family. I'm Asian, and we have a tendency to want to live close to each other, live together and spend great amounts of time together (including inlaws) whereas many of my friends who aren't Asian can't stand to be with much of their family for more than a day or few hours.

 

[Kathryn]

Most people have but that doesn't even compare the slighest to what some people suffer. Can you imagine living your life with your body fully burned? You and me do not know what real suffering is, admit it.

Don't know about you, but personally, I have suffered. That being said, I am sure that others have suffered MORE. No matter how many examples you bring up, we could probably go back and forth with even more extreme examples of human suffering. However, that seems a bit pointless. Within the wide range of human experiences, it's easy to see that some lives which we think should actually be PLEASANT are filled with sorrow and bitterness, and some lives we think would be awful are filled with joy.

In fact, i don't think anyone can have a real joyful life [I have different standards for such terms which imply ,for example, the non existence of a physical body]....

Let's just stick with the common usages of terms, shall we? It makes communication easier.

Anyway, i do not think those people you gave as examples can be said to have a joyful life [according to usual standards], even more joni. They simply moved on and accepted this fact.You would have to live inside their minds to know how they actually feel. To show me a glimpse of their lives and take that if it was an example of their entire lives is quite funny.

Wow, this is SUCH a judgmental position to take! What usual standards - YOUR usual standards? You've already said that you don't think that ANYONE can have a truly joyful life (a position that seems very odd and sort of pathetic to me, especially considering that I myself am a very joyful person, in spite of your beliefs).

But you're right about one thing - I can't truly know how they actually feel. So I will just have to take their word for it, and base my beliefs on how they feel on a combination of their words and actions.

Joy is elusive, and at the same time, all around us. I've been at the bottom of a pit of despair, and then suddenly, the smallest, seemingly inconsequential thing can bring me great joy and peace. And then there are people who live with what seems to be every conceivable THING and set of circumstances that should bring joy, and they are wretchedly unhappy.

Joy comes from within and can be quite independent of external factors.

 

[ninerbuff]

Insurance companies know this - they're not counting on you not dying. If that were the case, they'd issue the same policy at the same price for a ninety year old as they do a twenty year old - as long as neither party was involved in sky diving and were non smokers.

No, they are counting on you dying. What they are concerned with is how much the payout will be compared to how much you put in along with others. Which is why the premiums for older people who join are much, much higher than someone who is in their 20's.
I'd like to hear what god's plan is for people who get killed over insurance money.

 

[Kathryn]

No, they are counting on you dying. What they are concerned with is how much the payout will be compared to how much you put in along with others. Which is why the premiums for older people who join are much, much higher than someone who is in their 20's.
I'd like to hear what god's plan is for people who get killed over insurance money.

So in other words, the human death rate is 100 percent, right?

 

[Koldo]

Don't know about you, but personally, I have suffered. That being said, I am sure that others have suffered MORE. No matter how many examples you bring up, we could probably go back and forth with even more extreme examples of human suffering. However, that seems a bit pointless. Within the wide range of human experiences, it's easy to see that some lives which we think should actually be PLEASANT are filled with sorrow and bitterness, and some lives we think would be awful are filled with joy.

It is correct to say that some lives that could have been pleasant are filled with sorrow and bitterness, albeit i don't know if there is any awfull life being filled with joy, and i believe it is too much to assume such.

Let's just stick with the common usages of terms, shall we? It makes communication easier.

Sure.

Wow, this is SUCH a judgmental position to take! What usual standards - YOUR usual standards?

I am not using my standards here. I am applying the society usual standards as in what can be regarded as a joyful life, and i believe those people fail to meet the requirements.

You've already said that you don't think that ANYONE can have a truly joyful life (a position that seems very odd and sort of pathetic to me, especially considering that I myself am a very joyful person, in spite of your beliefs).

I was talking about my view on joyful lives when i made that statement. There is a line between that sentence and the next paragraph for a reason.

You have already said you suffered during your life so you do not meet my personal requirements for a joyful life.

But you're right about one thing - I can't truly know how they actually feel. So I will just have to take their word for it, and base my beliefs on how they feel on a combination of their words and actions.

This is tricky. I highly advise against it.

Joy is elusive, and at the same time, all around us. I've been at the bottom of a pit of despair, and then suddenly, the smallest, seemingly inconsequential thing can bring me great joy and peace. And then there are people who live with what seems to be every conceivable THING and set of circumstances that should bring joy, and they are wretchedly unhappy.

There is a major difference between feeling joy and having a joyful life. I hope you can see it.

Joy comes from within and can be quite independent of external factors.

As long as you don't have a physical body.....

 

[ninerbuff]

So in other words, the human death rate is 100 percent, right?

Come on Kathryn, I'm NOT denying people don't die. What I'm questioning is why this god of yours chooses to let innocents die when clearly they may have had bright futures. You have no explanation for this except "god has a plan" which could be anything from, maybe god wants a stop light at that intersection, to the drunk driver had to do to jail and this what was needed for it to happen.

 

[Kathryn]

It is correct to say that some lives that could have been pleasant are filled with sorrow and bitterness, albeit i don't know if there is any awfull life being filled with joy, and i believe it is too much to assume such.

OK. Believe as you will. I guess then, when you hear someone whose life has been filled with suffering testifying that in spite of their trials, they live a joyful life, you think they are lying or are delusional?

I am not using my standards here. I am applying the society usual standards as in what can be regarded as a joyful life, and i believe those people fail to meet the requirements.

All I can say to this is "Wow."

was talking about my view on joyful lives when i made that statement. There is a line between that sentence and the next paragraph for a reason.

You have already said you suffered during your life so you do not meet my personal requirements for a joyful life.

Once again, "Wow."

Let me point something out to you. Not trying to be a butthead, but - it doesn't matter whether you think my life (or anyone else's) meets YOUR criteria for "joyful." As you yourself have already mentioned, there's simply no way for us to know truly how another person feels. All we can do is observe their actions, listen to what they are saying, and form our own opinions.

But in the end, whether or not you BELIEVE that my life is joyful has absolutely no bearing on my level of joy. It simply makes no difference to me. Nor would I think that Joni Earekson Tada has anything to prove to you - or anyone else.

But I do think it is a horrible thing to disbelieve her and judge her as unjoyful - based on her disabilities and your own perception and prejudices. I think this is HORRIBLY judgmental.

There is a major difference between feeling joy and having a joyful life. I hope you can see it.

Look,I don't know anything about you, so I have no idea how or whether you have suffered much in your life. Personally - I have. Believe me, I know the difference between a fleeting feeling of joy, and a joyful life.

I live a life filled with joy. Even when I have suffered, my faith has strengthened me and allowed me to grasp and feel joy, even during the suffering.

I expect more suffering in my life. And I pray that my faith will be strong then as well. It has been very helpful to me in the past.

 

[Koldo]

OK. Believe as you will. I guess then, when you hear someone whose life has been filled with suffering testifying that in spite of their trials, they live a joyful life, you think they are lying or are delusional?

They are exaggerating.

Once again, "Wow."

Let me point something out to you. Not trying to be a butthead, but - it doesn't matter whether you think my life (or anyone else's) meets YOUR criteria for "joyful." As you yourself have already mentioned, there's simply no way for us to know truly how another person feels. All we can do is observe their actions, listen to what they are saying, and form our own opinions.

I know nobody fits my personal criteria of joyful life, so i can easily make such statement.

But in the end, whether or not you BELIEVE that my life is joyful has absolutely no bearing on my level of joy. It simply makes no difference to me. Nor would I think that Joni Earekson Tada has anything to prove to you - or anyone else.

It surely has no difference.

But I do think it is a horrible thing to disbelieve her and judge her as unjoyful - based on her disabilities and your own perception and prejudices. I think this is HORRIBLY judgmental.

I find it only natural, but i understand that some people find it rather odd.

Look,I don't know anything about you, so I have no idea how or whether you have suffered much in your life. Personally - I have. Believe me, I know the difference between a fleeting feeling of joy, and a joyful life.

I live a life filled with joy. Even when I have suffered, my faith has strengthened me and allowed me to grasp and feel joy, even during the suffering.

Do you feel joy while suffering?
Are you masochist?

 

[ninerbuff]

How horrible do we have it? I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the world, there are many more people who have it much worst than we do living in fear of being raped, raided, starving, etc. because they lack education, a home, a job or even just basic freedom. I couldn't imagine living in Africa where people are treated like common garbage by warlords and people in power. And to hear that some live this way because the "lord hasn't been revealed" to them really gourds me. Of course if they had some import of value to the US, then it wouldn't be this way.

 

[Kathryn]

They are exaggerating.



I know nobody fits my personal criteria of joyful life, so i can easily make such statement.



It surely has no difference.



I find it only natural, but i understand that some people find it rather odd.



Do you feel joy while suffering?
Are you masochist?

When I am suffering, my faith allows me to find a place of peace of mind - and yes, sometimes even joy. Not kick up your heels, yeehaw happy happy joy joy, but a deeper sense of purpose and wisdom that has joy as part of the experience.

Just because you can't grasp that, doesn't give you the right to dismiss it in others.

 

[PolyHedral]

How horrible do we have it? I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the world, there are many more people who have it much worst than we do living in fear of being raped, raided, starving, etc. because they lack education, a home, a job or even just basic freedom. I couldn't imagine living in Africa where people are treated like common garbage by warlords and people in power. And to hear that some live this way because the "lord hasn't been revealed" to them really gourds me. Of course if they had some import of value to the US, then it wouldn't be this way.

I would like to remind everyone that Libya is currently in a state of what is essentially civil war. Colonel Gadaffi has lost control of a large part of the country, and is firing on unarmed or lightly armed protesters in order to try and regain that control.

 

[ninerbuff]

When I am suffering, my faith allows me to find a place of peace of mind - and yes, sometimes even joy. Not kick up your heels, yeehaw happy happy joy joy, but a deeper sense of purpose and wisdom that has joy as part of the experience.

Just because you can't grasp that, doesn't give you the right to dismiss it in others.

See and I can get that same joy just looking at my daughter and seeing her smile. If I couldn't see that again for the rest of my life, I don't see how "leaning" on a god would ever replace it. People of faith believe in "seeing" that person again because it's the best hope they have. No one would ever want to believe the finality of losing a loved on and that would be it forever. It started with the Ancients and still continues today, although we've blew off the Egyptians versions of the "afterlife", yet somehow believe the christian version is legit.