Explain this logically christians....

[Koldo]

When I am suffering, my faith allows me to find a place of peace of mind - and yes, sometimes even joy. Not kick up your heels, yeehaw happy happy joy joy, but a deeper sense of purpose and wisdom that has joy as part of the experience.

Just because you can't grasp that, doesn't give you the right to dismiss it in others.

I can grasp that, but as i said there is a big difference between joy and joyful life. You are describing joy to me.

OFF TOPIC: By the way, every time i looked at your avatar you were reminding me of someone. I just couldn't figure out who, but then it suddenly came to me:

Dilma Rousseff, current Brazil's president.

 

[Kathryn]

LOL, hey that's cool - but she needs to spike her hair up a bit. I have a feeling that she's more straight laced than me, but I could be wrong. She could be a real wild thang for all I know!

 

[waitasec]

God's not a vending machine which pops out explanations when we insert a quarter.

which explains the reason why i think life is chaotic and indifferent.
the ones who seem to be asking for an explanation are the ones who think god has a plan for them...

You can think of it that way if it makes you feel better.

i guess it depends on how i choose to react if something this horrific happened to me.
as a pawn in a flawed world.
or
to appreciate the value of this chaotic indifferent world

Not sure what you mean with this question - "Would the ILLOGICAL option be..."

which option is illogical and why?
why do bad things happen? there is no why...it's chaos.
why do bad things happen? because god has a plan

The logical option (... snip ...) whenever it is within our power to stave off human suffering, we should do so.

but why apply this to us and not to your benevolent god?
isn't there a double standard here? this is why i find the notion of, all things are for a reason and only a loving and good god knows why, as illogical

no one is ever saying treat other people badly...in fact we are all innately empathic because we are sentient beings.
do you think this drunk driver wanted to kill anyone...?
this persons stupidity killed two people, if he survived...he has to live with that reality for the rest of his life.

i think it's the comfort aspect that is setting the narrative tone in the ideal of a loving god. which can make people less prone to recognize the significance of the harsh elements that's surrounding them...and less inclined to fully appreciate the here and now.

ultimately, telling someone who just lost his family is somehow a part of gods plan, is standing in judgement of that persons life and of the people he lost.
and who can say they know this?

 

[smokeybear]

If one uses prayer to support faith, he must also listen to God with his intuitive senses. If he does not, he may miss a warning against a certain action that would cause harm.

A connection to God is personal. Because one member engages in this inner correspondence does not guarantee another family member will.

Our faith in materialism has corrupted our inner connection to higher powers. However, as the world economic collapse continues, this faith in the outer machinations of authorities will fail forcing confidence in materialism to slowly surrender to the growing acceptance of spirituality.

It is uncertain that current religious beliefs and practices will be sufficient to overcome the mental suffering caused by the disintegration of modern culture. Nevertheless, the tools to grapple with adversity are present in the original teachings of the benefactors of the religions.

Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Zarathustra,Meher Baba and other spiritual masters all taught the same basic truths. That wisdom is more than sufficient to carry one through any material or mental calamity including physical death.

Real faith has nothing to do with reason.

 

[Kathryn]

the ones who seem to be asking for an explanation are the ones who think god has a plan for them...

Well, actually, the OP is by a non Christian asking for an explanation from Christians, not the other way around.

A Christian's faith doesn't disallow for questioning God, by the way. We should always seek deeper wisdom and understanding, and this in itself requires questioning, and an inquisitive mind.

There's a difference between questioning, and losing one's faith.

i guess it depends on how i choose to react if something this horrific happened to me.
as a pawn in a flawed world.
or
to appreciate the value of this chaotic indifferent world

Only you can decide for yourself what your reaction will be. I see myself as an instrument of God's will and I feel honored to be a part of God's plan. I find it challenging, and even interesting, to take events, even tragic ones, and try learn from them and grow in different directions. It's often either that, or just allow myself to wallow in sorrow and become bitter.

I choose to learn instead. When I learn from life's experiences, and intentionally and purposefully eschew bitterness in favor of gaining wisdom and insight, I can help others who may experience some of the same trials.

I'd rather be a victor than a victim, I guess.

which option is illogical and why?
why do bad things happen? there is no why...it's chaos.
why do bad things happen? because god has a plan

A case could be made for either side of that coin. Go ahead and believe in chaos if it makes you feel better. I feel better believing that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

It works for me. And I'm a joyful person.

but why apply this to us and not to your benevolent god?
isn't there a double standard here? this is why i find the notion of, all things are for a reason and only a loving and good god knows why, as illogical.

It's not my role to "apply this to God." God is omnipotent and understanding all of his ways is "above my pay grade." Right now I see through a glass darkly, but one day I will understand all I need to.

When you discipline your child firmly, or when you allow them to experience something (like failure, for instance) when you could have intervened and everything would have been sweetness and light, are you being cruel, or do you see the bigger picture? Does your child understand everything you impose on their lives?

no one is ever saying treat other people badly...in fact we are all innately empathic because we are sentient beings.
do you think this drunk driver wanted to kill anyone...?
this persons stupidity killed two people, if he survived...he has to live with that reality for the rest of his life.

Actually, some people DO want to kill others, or at least act so irresponsibly that their actions do kill others. Personally, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them.

i think it's the comfort aspect that is setting the narrative tone in the ideal of a loving god. which can make people less prone to recognize the significance of the harsh elements that's surrounding them...and less inclined to fully appreciate the here and now.

ultimately, telling someone who just lost his family is somehow a part of gods plan, is standing in judgement of that persons life and of the people he lost.
and who can say they know this?

Actually, if you recall my MULTITUDINOUS posts on this thread explaining this, I don't think walking up to a grieving family member and saying "This is God's plan," is in good taste, or constructive. The time to say that is not at the funeral, or even a month later. But the point is to open the dialogue, keep them engaged and be supportive of them, and earn the right to offer help and advice as they can accept it.

But - talk about judging someone's life! I think those who feel that the quality or value of a person's life is based on how long they live or whether or not they are disabled are actually more judgmental than those who believe that any human life is sacred, regardless of their time on this earth or their physical or mental limitations.

It's not how or when we die that matters as much as it is how we live.

 

[ninerbuff]

If one uses prayer to support faith, he must also listen to God with his intuitive senses. If he does not, he may miss a warning against a certain action that would cause harm.

And if no faith then what? I can say that my "intuition" has lead to great decisions in my life that have been very fruitful. From spontaneously buying a house in 2002, full well knowing we might struggle a little, and making a profit instead of a loss, to quitting my $60,000 a year job to stay at home an raise a daughter, to moving back to California where we bought another home that is almost triple what we paid for in 2002, to actually having more money now, even with me not working a full time job. All this without praying or looking to a magical entity for advice.

A connection to God is personal. Because one member engages in this inner correspondence does not guarantee another family member will.

Nor does it guarantee the one with the personal connection will be better off.

Our faith in materialism has corrupted our inner connection to higher powers. However, as the world economic collapse continues, this faith in the outer machinations of authorities will fail forcing confidence in materialism to slowly surrender to the growing acceptance of spirituality.

Or we will reinvent ourselves. It happens century to century.

It is uncertain that current religious beliefs and practices will be sufficient to overcome the mental suffering caused by the disintegration of modern culture. Nevertheless, the tools to grapple with adversity are present in the original teachings of the benefactors of the religions.

Times change, people don't. What people wanted a couple of thousand years ago, they still want today, which is a home to live in, food to eat and a healthy family.

Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Zarathustra,Meher Baba and other spiritual masters all taught the same basic truths. That wisdom is more than sufficient to carry one through any material or mental calamity including physical death.

And what truth is that? That we live and die?

 

[Copernicus]

Well, actually, the OP is by a non Christian asking for an explanation from Christians, not the other way around.

Kathryn, it has been an interesting discussion, and I truly admire your ability to spring back after all that tragedy. I think I understand how your faith has acted as a catalyst in your ability to overcome horrible tragedy, but I think that you definitely have given us an answer to the OP that makes sense to people of faith. You have said that you do not understand "God's plan". You believe that God lets bad things happen to good people. He let bad things happen to you. Yet you did not lose your faith. You took life's lemons and made lemonade, as the old cliche goes. Perhaps God was the sugar in your lemonade. To me, God is an artificial sweetener that can cause cancer when used in excess.

Theodicy is what this thread is all about--the reconciliation of an all-powerful, all-benevolent God with the existence of suffering. You have told us that God has a plan, and that is all you need to know. You cannot explain what that plan is. The OP asks for a "logical" explanation, and you cannot give one. We live in a universe that makes perfect sense to those who believe that there is no plan, because there is no God. You have managed to find a way not to care whether or not you can think of a reason for all the suffering that exists in the world. You just know that belief in God has helped you to cope with that suffering in your own life.

Atheists face the same suffering and tragedy that the faithful do. They have no God to pray to when they suffer, but some still manage to come through it with the same positive spirit that you have. That is usually because they expect and have learned to accept reality as it appears to them, just as you have. Unlike you, they can give a logical reason why horrible things happen to good people, and, unlike you, they would have to know why God would allow it if he were the kind of being described by so many believers.

 

[smokeybear]

Ninerbuff said:

"Times change, people don't. What people wanted a couple of thousand years ago, they still want today, which is a home to live in, food to eat and a healthy family."

Is that all people want? What did you want when you started this thread?

Ninerbuff asked:

"And what truth is that? That we live and die?"

No.

We know we live, but we only believe we die.

Nobody knows if our awareness ends with the death of the physical body. The fear of death is actually the fear of the unknown.

Jesus Christ, the Buddha and the other spiritual masters tried to described that which we cannot perceive with our five physical senses and how we can develop the higher senses. This wisdom was lost in time creating misunderstanding about their message.

.
​

 

[waitasec]

Well, actually, the OP is by a non Christian asking for an explanation from Christians, not the other way around.

but thats not what i said nor implied...
do christians ask why? obviously they do because...

A Christian's faith doesn't disallow for questioning God, by the way. We should always seek deeper wisdom and understanding, and this in itself requires questioning, and an inquisitive mind.

did i say that christians were not allowed to ask why?
i said...

the ones who seem to be asking for an explanation are the ones who think god has a plan for them...

I find it challenging, and even interesting, to take events, even tragic ones, and try learn from them and grow in different directions. It's often either that, or just allow myself to wallow in sorrow and become bitter.

and who says you don't. and who says an unbeliever can't do these things as well...? how does one learn if they are not aware of their limitations?

I choose to learn instead. When I learn from life's experiences, and intentionally and purposefully eschew bitterness in favor of gaining wisdom and insight, I can help others who may experience some of the same trials.

and what unbeliever can't do these things as well?

I'd rather be a victor than a victim, I guess.

and what unbeliever wouldn't want the same?

A case could be made for either side of that coin. Go ahead and believe in chaos if it makes you feel better. I feel better believing that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

so in gods plan the loss of an innocent child and wife is good.

btw,
romans 8:28 was a precursor to verse 30
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

can you see why there is an undue sense of importance?

It's not my role to "apply this to God." God is omnipotent and understanding all of his ways is "above my pay grade." Right now I see through a glass darkly, but one day I will understand all I need to.

so you accept double standards in your life...?

When you discipline your child firmly, or when you allow them to experience something (like failure, for instance) when you could have intervened and everything would have been sweetness and light, are you being cruel, or do you see the bigger picture? Does your child understand everything you impose on their lives?

i agree with this...but what can be learned by loosing your family?

Actually, some people DO want to kill others, or at least act so irresponsibly that their actions do kill others. Personally, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them.

i would agree that there are sick people out there...but accidents are that... accidents.

Actually, if you recall my MULTITUDINOUS posts on this thread explaining this, I don't think walking up to a grieving family member and saying "This is God's plan," is in good taste, or constructive. The time to say that is not at the funeral, or even a month later. But the point is to open the dialogue, keep them engaged and be supportive of them, and earn the right to offer help and advice as they can accept it.

what's the difference if it was a year later...it's making a judgement call on something no one can comprehend...so why pretend to understand?

But - talk about judging someone's life! I think those who feel that the quality or value of a person's life is based on how long they live or whether or not they are disabled are actually more judgmental than those who believe that any human life is sacred, regardless of their time on this earth or their physical or mental limitations.

i agree. am i misunderstanding your implication that i don't?

It's not how or when we die that matters as much as it is how we live.

couldn't agree with you more...
how does one value their life...as a pawn or as a player?

 

[waitasec]

Theodicy is what this thread is all about--the reconciliation of an all-powerful, all-benevolent God with the existence of suffering. You have told us that God has a plan, and that is all you need to know. You cannot explain what that plan is. The OP asks for a "logical" explanation, and you cannot give one. We live in a universe that makes perfect sense to those who believe that there is no plan, because there is no God. You have managed to find a way not to care whether or not you can think of a reason for all the suffering that exists in the world. You just know that belief in God has helped you to cope with that suffering in your own life.

Atheists face the same suffering and tragedy that the faithful do. They have no God to pray to when they suffer, but some still manage to come through it with the same positive spirit that you have. That is usually because they expect and have learned to accept reality as it appears to them, just as you have. Unlike you, they can give a logical reason why horrible things happen to good people, and, unlike you, they would have to know why God would allow it if he were the kind of being described by so many believers.

what copernicus said...


i'm done...
:beach:
thank you.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, it has been an interesting discussion, and I truly admire your ability to spring back after all that tragedy.

Glad I could entertain you.

I think I understand how your faith has acted as a catalyst in your ability to overcome horrible tragedy, but I think that you definitely have given us an answer to the OP that makes sense to people of faith.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Actually, I never expected to be able to convince people who do not have faith by my arguments. All I have been doing is explaining my position. It's probably a pretty pointless discussion actually, if either side is trying to convince the other of the validity of their position. Those who have faith have an extra level they operate from, so to speak. Those who do not have faith cannot grasp the experience.

It's kind of like if there were aliens who had seven or eight senses. We only have five or six at best. Would we ever be able to truly grasp what they were describing as experiencing with a sense that we simply had no concept of? I doubt it.

You have said that you do not understand "God's plan". You believe that God lets bad things happen to good people. He let bad things happen to you. Yet you did not lose your faith. You took life's lemons and made lemonade, as the old cliche goes.

This question begs to be asked. Do YOU understand why apparently random bad things happen to people? Is "chaos" your answer? How is that position any more credible? How does it make any more sense logically? How does it better the world or your experience in the world?

I've given the chaos theory some thought, but over time my life experiences seem to imply otherwise. As time unwinds and moves on, I can see life and purpose unfold in my life and in the lives of others. You can call it random if you like. You can call it "making lemonade out of life's lemons." But you can't prove that's what it is - just as I can't prove God's existance or plan to you.

Perhaps God was the sugar in your lemonade. To me, God is an artificial sweetener that can cause cancer when used in excess.

To each His own. God is not the sugar in my lemonade though. God is my Rock and my salvation. Pretty big difference.

And anything in excess is unbalanced and unhealthy.

You have told us that God has a plan, and that is all you need to know.

Well, that's an oversimplification of what I've said. It's not ALL I need to know - but sometimes it's all I CAN know in the midst of a crisis or tragedy. I don't believe, based on my own personal experiences with tragedy, that God leaves us in the dark perpetually.

You cannot explain what that plan is.

Actually, over time, I can. Give anything enough time to play out and you will see how things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. What I've said is that sometimes in the midst of a crisis or tragedy, I don't know what God's plan is - and yet I have learned to accept that there is a plan, and to look for whatever it is that I can learn through the experience, and how I am to incorporate that experience into the tapestry of my life.

The OP asks for a "logical" explanation, and you cannot give one.

No - perhaps I cannot give an explanation that you accept as logical. However, it makes perfect sense to me and to other people of faith. Whether you think it's logical or not makes no difference to reality.

We live in a universe that makes perfect sense to those who believe that there is no plan, because there is no God.

Really? So genocide, cancer, disfigurements, unspeakable human cruelty - all those make perfect sense to you? How so?

You have managed to find a way not to care whether or not you can think of a reason for all the suffering that exists in the world.

What? You think I don't care? You think I don't question, or ever shake my fist in God's face and cry "Why?" You think I don't expect to be given understanding?

You're very wrong. If you will read back to some of my earlier posts, you will find that indeed I do question God at times. I'm only human.

You just know that belief in God has helped you to cope with that suffering in your own life.

I "just" know? Why do you insist on belittling my position of peace of mind?

I don't "just" know - I DO know. I also know that the God I believe in understands my sorrows, my griefs, my confusion. I know that when I ask for wisdom, He will give it to me - in His time. I know that my faith has allowed me to gracefully weather many sorrows and tragedies without becoming bitter, disillusioned, self destructive, or filled with anger.

Personally, I don't think that's "just" sort of OK. I think it's a great blessing - not only to myself, but to the other people in my life. I'm a much better, stronger, and more emotionally healthy person because of my faith.

Atheists face the same suffering and tragedy that the faithful do. They have no God to pray to when they suffer, but some still manage to come through it with the same positive spirit that you have. That is usually because they expect and have learned to accept reality as it appears to them, just as you have.

Great. I wish joy for everyone. I love to see joyful, well adjusted, and strong people forging their way in this big, wide, and sometimes scary world. I wish them luck and blessings.

Unlike you, they can give a logical reason why horrible things happen to good people, and, unlike you, they would have to know why God would allow it if he were the kind of being described by so many believers.

What is that logical reason again? Chaos? Sorry - that doesn't seem very logical to me at all.

As for the various concepts of God portrayed or believed in by many different sects and untold millions of believers - everyone relates to their concept of God a bit differently. Don't lump all theists into one group - that will never give you any clarity.

Personally, I don't think of God as some sort of sweet natured old guy sitting up in heaven wishing sweetness and light on everyone. I do think of Him as totally holy, totally just, and totally omnipotent. I believe that one day we will all understand how things interrelate. Unlike the atheist, I am not demanding all answers right this moment. I accept that the human mind and psyche has limitations.

 

[PolyHedral]

It's not my role to "apply this to God."

Then it is a double standard. Since God has decided not to intervene in the case of the drunk driver, what possible reason do we have to conclude that it is not a good and moral thing that should be encouraged? God knows more than us; why not follow His example?

I don't think walking up to a grieving family member and saying "This is God's plan," is in good taste, or constructive.

I'd agree that it's neither good taste or constructive, but it is what the existence of a benevolent God implies. If an omnipotent God exists, then it either passively or actively condones all bad things that happen in the world. Unless you can somehow prove that out of all infinite possibilities, this is the best, then that is unacceptable, since it contradicts our premise that God is benevolent.

I think those who feel that the quality or value of a person's life is based on how long they live or whether or not they are disabled are actually more judgmental than those who believe that any human life is sacred, regardless of their time on this earth or their physical or mental limitations.

The quality most certainly does. The majority of disabilities simply can't be fixed, and so the people involved move on and don't focus on it. However, if you asked them "Would you get rid of it, if that could be done instantly, for free and with no side-effects or recovery?" I would think a large fraction would say "yes."

Really? So genocide, cancer, disfigurements, unspeakable human cruelty - all those make perfect sense to you? How so?

Because there's nobody responsible for them. Biology, Chemistry and Psychology simply don't always agree with us. If you remove God, you remove the necessity that anything stop "bad" things. The universe doesn't have to care.

 

[waitasec]

What is that logical reason again? Chaos? Sorry - that doesn't seem very logical to me at all.

sorry i have to say one more thing (or two)

chaos implies subjection to indifference

purpose implies intent...

now, with all the needless suffering in the world...what is more logical?

 

[Kathryn]

Since God has decided not to intervene in the case of the drunk driver, what possible reason do we have to conclude that it is not a good and moral thing that should be encouraged? God knows more than us; why not follow His example?

God's example was also suffering on the cross for the sake of mankind. God does not promise anyone an earthly life devoid of suffering. His own Son suffered on this earth. God gives us practical advice when it comes to how we interact with others on this earth. How do you know, by the way, that God did not intervene? Perhaps if the drunk driver hadn't hit this car with this family, he would have run a school bus off the road and over a cliff? Of course that can never be known - that's why there is no such thing as "what might have been." What might have been could have been a lot worse - but of course we never think that way. What we're really doing is saying "If I were God, I wouldn't have done it this way." Which is a ridiculous position to take. We frankly have very little idea of what we would do if we were God, because we can't see the whole picture from where we stand.

I'd agree that it's neither good taste or constructive, but it is what the existence of a benevolent God implies. If an omnipotent God exists, then it either passively or actively condones all bad things that happen in the world. Unless you can somehow prove that out of all infinite possibilities, this is the best, then that is unacceptable, since it contradicts our premise that God is benevolent.

Whose premise that God is benevolent? I am saying that God is omnipotent. God CAN be benevolent. But in this discussion, the main point is that He is Omnipotent - and we're simply not.

The majority of disabilities simply can't be fixed, and so the people involved move on and don't focus on it. However, if you asked them "Would you get rid of it, if that could be done instantly, for free and with no side-effects or recovery?" I would think a large fraction would say "yes."

Possibly. But I've also heard many people with disabilities describe how in the total scheme of things, their disability has enriched their lives in ways they never expected, and that they are a better person now than they were without the disability.

I know this - I would not have chosen some of the events and situations in my own life. In fact, some of them really sucked and left lasting impressions and results. But the bottom line once again is "There is no what might have been - there is only what is."

We recently bought four plane tickets to Europe for June. They were very expensive. They are non refundable. What if something happens and we can't make the trip? Anything could happen to any of the four of us, or all of us. We may not be able to go on this trip. Would it be "the trip that might have been?" I guess you could look at it that way. But if you insist on looking at it that way, then you also have to accept the possibility that the plane would have crashed, or that one of us would contract mad cow disease on the trip, or that we're robbed, beaten and then murdered on the trip, so - missing it was actually the best thing. If we KNEW any of those scenarios, we'd consider the $5500 we spent on tickets to be the best money we ever wasted, and be eternally grateful that we didn't make the trip.

But we can't know any of that -so if something happens, and we don't get to go, then it's something beyond our control and I simply believe it is what it is. Will I be dissappointed? Sure. Will I be VERY sad that I don't get to go? Yes, of course. But underneath that dissappointment lays an undercurrent of faith - and I'll default to that.

This actually happened to me not all that long ago. I had bought a ticket to go see my daughter and grandchildren, who I hadn't seen in a year, and right before my trip, I tore my achilles tendon and had to have surgery. And my ticket was non refundable. So - instead of a great trip (maybe or maybe not -who knows?) I got to lose my money, stay home, have surgery, miss work and some income, be in serious pain for weeks, and have months of very painful physical therapy. Which I'm STILL having by the way.

Does that suck? I guess I could think it did if I wanted to focus on the negative. But actually, I've learned a lot and am still learning a lot from the experience. One of the main things I've learned is empathy for those who have disabilities,especially mobility issues. I can and have put that empathy to good use - and will do so from now on.

And more good things may come of my experience - if I am open to them and allow God to show me more ways to put what I've learned to good use.

Now - some people would do nothing more than be mad about missing the trip, and be angry and frustrated about the pain and trouble an achilles tendon rupture causes (and believe me, it's plenty of pain and trouble). In fact, my doctor just told me this past week that my left leg is probably permanently weakened, and that my left ankle will never return to normal. Guess I could be bitter about it, but hey, I'm just not.

It's all good. I'll make the best of it.

Do I wish I hadn't ruptured my achilles tendon? Well, this may sound strange to you, but considering that it was nothing I did irresponsibly to do so, then there was probably no way to prevent it from occurring. I can't honestly say that I wish it hadn't have happened, because I don't know what would have happened had it NOT happened. Maybe the day I was in surgery, if I'd been on the road to work instead, I would have lost control of my car and slammed into a tree and permanently disfigured my face? WHO KNOWS?

As it is - I now have a lovely scar and a permanently weakened left leg, or so they say. Maybe so. But I can either pout about it or get off my *** and work that leg out and do my best. In the process, I can look for opportunities to help others who are also struggling with mobility limitations and frustrations. That is my goal.

The universe doesn't have to care.

The universe doesn't have to care under my set of beliefs either. My faith is intensely personal, between God and myself.

 

[Kathryn]

Here's my blog about Achilles Tendon rupture and surgery by the way. I regularly get emails from others going through it who have found my blog online and are learning from my experience. I think that's pretty cool.

Achilles Tendon Drama

 

[Copernicus]

You say that like it's a bad thing. Actually, I never expected to be able to convince people who do not have faith by my arguments. All I have been doing is explaining my position. It's probably a pretty pointless discussion actually, if either side is trying to convince the other of the validity of their position. Those who have faith have an extra level they operate from, so to speak. Those who do not have faith cannot grasp the experience.

Your last statement is plainly false. Many, if not most, atheists had faith at one point in their lives. We know what trust, loyalty, and reverence are. Just because we do not share your faith or experience it as you do, that does not mean that we do not understand it.

It's kind of like if there were aliens who had seven or eight senses. We only have five or six at best. Would we ever be able to truly grasp what they were describing as experiencing with a sense that we simply had no concept of? I doubt it.

I agree, but atheists are human beings, not aliens. We have the same feelings and emotions that you do. And the same criticism could be said of you. You have no understanding of what it is like to be an atheist, yet you have all sorts of things to say about our state of mind. We have just as much right to make judgments about your beliefs as you do about ours.

This question begs to be asked. Do YOU understand why apparently random bad things happen to people? Is "chaos" your answer? How is that position any more credible? How does it make any more sense logically? How does it better the world or your experience in the world?

The last rhetorical question is different from the others, so I'll take it last. My explanation is not chaos but complexity. Our world is so complex, and we are so ignorant of everything that goes on around us, that we cannot predict everything. Our brains enable us to predict some of it, and we can make plans to deal with it as best we can. This is not so different for you, except that you believe there is a "plan" that involves a super-intelligent, super-powerful being who loves you and lets bad things happen to you. The OP asked for a logical explanation, and you have admitted that you have none. Being a non-believer, I need no explanation. Being a believer, you have to find a way to not need one.

How does this make my experience of the world better than yours? I don't know that it does, but I cannot use your method of coping, because I need to know how God's "plan" makes sense, among other things. Like you, I accept that bad things happen, and I can only hope to avoid them. You seem to think that your religion makes your ability to cope with life better than mine. Maybe it does. Maybe not. It is a moot point, since life is the ultimate Hobson's choice--you can live any life you want as long as it is the one you are living.

I've given the chaos theory some thought, but over time my life experiences seem to imply otherwise. As time unwinds and moves on, I can see life and purpose unfold in my life and in the lives of others. You can call it random if you like. You can call it "making lemonade out of life's lemons." But you can't prove that's what it is - just as I can't prove God's existance or plan to you.

We do not live in a chaotic world, just a very complex one. I also see purpose in my life, but it comes from humanity and my circumstances, not a deity. To me, your God is like a super-charged lucky charm. It isn't as trivial a thing as a rabbit's foot--don't get me wrong--but there is a similarity. People who believe in lucky charms find them useful. They can even cure cancer, if the placebo effect super-charges the immune system. A person without any rabbit's foot might not survive that cancer, other things being equal, but is that really a reason to believe that the rabbit's foot caused the cure? It would be unfounded and unsupportable belief that caused the cure. And the rabbit's foot is more likely to lead to death if the person with cancer relies on it rather than chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Having both is not a bad combination, but, if you cannot believe in the power of the rabbit's foot, then that is not an option.

Well, that's an oversimplification of what I've said. It's not ALL I need to know - but sometimes it's all I CAN know in the midst of a crisis or tragedy. I don't believe, based on my own personal experiences with tragedy, that God leaves us in the dark perpetually.

I do not see how what I said was an oversimplification. That you believe you will someday understand the plan is beside the point. You'll never be able to test that theory out until you die, and there is no good reason to believe that you will have any opportunities to test out anything after your physical brain ceases to sustain a functioning mind.

Actually, over time, I can. Give anything enough time to play out and you will see how things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. What I've said is that sometimes in the midst of a crisis or tragedy, I don't know what God's plan is - and yet I have learned to accept that there is a plan, and to look for whatever it is that I can learn through the experience, and how I am to incorporate that experience into the tapestry of my life.

But you admit now that you cannot explain God's plan. You just believe that you will be able to explain it "over time". Nobody here is questioning that you have "learned to accept that there is a plan". That isn't the question being asked or the challenge being posed. The question is: what is the plan? How is suffering logical, given your belief system? It all comes back to your admission that you cannot now explain the plan. You believe you will be able to eventually, but I remain unconvinced.

No - perhaps I cannot give an explanation that you accept as logical. However, it makes perfect sense to me and to other people of faith. Whether you think it's logical or not makes no difference to reality.

The question is whether it makes sense to anyone but people who have faith. We know that the question makes sense to believers, because they have developed theodicy to address the question. You claim that it makes sense to you. The OP asks Christians to explain the logic. You admit that you cannot do that.

Really? So genocide, cancer, disfigurements, unspeakable human cruelty - all those make perfect sense to you? How so?

Evolution, baby. Read Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth. All will be revealed. They make perfect sense because there is no mystery to explain. There is no mysterious "plan" that involves an all-powerful, all-knowing being who lets bad things happen to beings that it loves.

What? You think I don't care? You think I don't question, or ever shake my fist in God's face and cry "Why?" You think I don't expect to be given understanding?

I never said you didn't care at all. What I said was that you found a way to not care that you aren't going to get an answer in this life. You believe that it will be forthcoming--all will be revealed--at a later period in your existence. Whatever frustration you have with God's reticence is under control. Atheists who, like you, come to accept circumstances that they can do nothing about, don't need to shake their fists. They have nobody to shake their fists at--except the drunk drivers and others that happen to bring them grief.

I "just" know? Why do you insist on belittling my position of peace of mind?

I don't "just" know - I DO know...

Sorry, but I cannot tell the difference between the two types of knowledge in this case.

Personally, I don't think of God as some sort of sweet natured old guy sitting up in heaven wishing sweetness and light on everyone. I do think of Him as totally holy, totally just, and totally omnipotent. I believe that one day we will all understand how things interrelate...

Please understand that the OP does not question that you believe these things. It asks for a logical explanation of suffering in light of those beliefs. What you seem to have admitted is that you have none. You believe one exists and that it will be revealed to you, but you do not have that explanation now.

Unlike the atheist, I am not demanding all answers right this moment. I accept that the human mind and psyche has limitations.

I know of no atheist who is "demanding all answers right this moment". In the matter of suffering, an atheist needs no explanation, because that is the way things work. "Spit happens", as the saying goes (in bowdlerized movies, anyway). Like you, most atheists accept that the human mind has limitations. Why would anyone think otherwise?

 

[Kathryn]

Many, if not most, atheists had faith at one point in their lives. We know what trust, loyalty, and reverence are. Just because we do not share your faith or experience it as you do, that does not mean that we do not understand it.

Many, if not all, people of faith have doubted their faith or the existance of God at one point in their lives. Just because they don't share your lack of faith or experience as you do doesn't mean they don't understand why you think the way you do.

We've just reached different conclusions based on our own study, observations, and life experiences. One thing is certain - the existance or lack thereof of an omnipotent God cannot be proven.

You have no understanding of what it is like to be an atheist, yet you have all sorts of things to say about our state of mind. We have just as much right to make judgments about your beliefs as you do about ours.

Actually, I haven't said anything about "the state of atheists' minds." And of course you have as much right to make judgments about my beliefs as I do about your beliefs. However, you are the one equating my beliefs with belief in rabbit's feet for good luck, and placebos in place of true medicine. I don't recall belittling any atheists or their personal beliefs.

My explanation is not chaos but complexity. Our world is so complex, and we are so ignorant of everything that goes on around us, that we cannot predict everything. Our brains enable us to predict some of it, and we can make plans to deal with it as best we can.

I totally agree.

This is not so different for you, except that you believe there is a "plan" that involves a super-intelligent, super-powerful being who loves you and lets bad things happen to you.

Yep, just as I love my dogs and "let" bad things happen to them. I take them to the vet and let him cut their organs out of them. I force hard, bitter things down their throats. I leave them with strangers in a little pen for sometimes a week at a time and they are miserable and quite certain they've seen the last of me.

Sometimes I even take them somewhere and actually PAY someone to KILL THEM.
How could I do these things to them when I claim to love them so?

The OP asked for a logical explanation, and you have admitted that you have none.

Well, no, you keep trying to make it seem that I've said that. What I've actually said is that I have been unable to give an answer that you accept. Two different things altogether.

Being a non-believer, I need no explanation. Being a believer, you have to find a way to not need one.

Sheeze, do you MEAN to sound so condescending? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't, since you seem like a nice enough person. The minute I determine that you think you're superior to me, the tone of this conversation will alter dramatically and be quite shortened as well.

But you really don't get what I'm saying. I don't "have to find a way not to need an explanation." I'm not agonizing over this and doing mental cartwheels. It's simply not that hard a concept for me to grasp - now. It was at one time, but my life and events in my life have proven it to me over the years.

How does this make my experience of the world better than yours? I don't know that it does, but I cannot use your method of coping, because I need to know how God's "plan" makes sense, among other things.

It's much more than a method of coping. It's a method of living - joyfully and peacefully. By the way, I am a very healthy person both physically, mentally, and emotionally so apparently it's not too bad a mindset to embrace.

Like you, I accept that bad things happen, and I can only hope to avoid them. You seem to think that your religion makes your ability to cope with life better than mine.

Never said that, never implied it, don't believe it. What I've said is that it works for ME. You do your own thing and good luck. I wish you well and sincerely hope you have a life filled with joy and peace.

We do not live in a chaotic world, just a very complex one. I also see purpose in my life, but it comes from humanity and my circumstances, not a deity.

Your opinion. We'll see.

To me, your God is like a super-charged lucky charm. It isn't as trivial a thing as a rabbit's foot--don't get me wrong--but there is a similarity. People who believe in lucky charms find them useful. They can even cure cancer, if the placebo effect super-charges the immune system. A person without any rabbit's foot might not survive that cancer, other things being equal, but is that really a reason to believe that the rabbit's foot caused the cure? It would be unfounded and unsupportable belief that caused the cure. And the rabbit's foot is more likely to lead to death if the person with cancer relies on it rather than chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Having both is not a bad combination, but, if you cannot believe in the power of the rabbit's foot, then that is not an option.

So - in your wisdom, you've managed to relegate the faith and life experiences of millions of people (many who are certainly wiser than you, wouldn't you agree?) to the level of placebos and good luck charms.

Look, it's one thing for you to decide this for your own application to your own life. It's altogether another thing for you to sweep aside as nothing more than superstition the faith of countless theists and deists the world over from the inception of time. Quite a leap there.

And a bit arrogant, I believe.

You may be right, but I doubt it. At the same time, I'm not looking down on your lack of belief from any sort of haughty or superior position. That's your thang - it's between you and God - or no God. I'm just telling you what works in my life and how I have found joy and peace and reconciled life's trials and events with my beliefs.

I do not see how what I said was an oversimplification. That you believe you will someday understand the plan is beside the point.
You'll never be able to test that theory out until you die, and there is no good reason to believe that you will have any opportunities to test out anything after your physical brain ceases to sustain a functioning mind.

Life is an ongoing learning experience. I don't have to wait to die to begin understanding.

But you admit now that you cannot explain God's plan.

There you go again, trying to pretend I admit things, when I've done no such thing.

I can and do gain ongoing understanding of God's plan in my life. God's cosmic plan for the entire universe? No, I don't understand all of that - yet.

The question is: what is the plan? How is suffering logical, given your belief system? It all comes back to your admission that you cannot now explain the plan. You believe you will be able to eventually, but I remain unconvinced.

Never made that admission - the fact that you keep saying I have doesn't make it reality.

You're insisting on skipping huge swaths of what I explain - not sure why, but that's your choice. Just to let you know though - that may partially explain why you're unconvinced. However, I never planned to convince you to believe as I do, so nothing lost.

Evolution, baby. Read Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth. All will be revealed.

You've got faith in Dawkins. I've got faith in an omnipotent god. Not sure if you've read the bible, but if you have apparently you were unimpressed. Likewise, I'm unimpressed with Dawkins.

There is no mysterious "plan" that involves an all-powerful, all-knowing being who lets bad things happen to beings that it loves.

And you know this how? Because Dawkins said so? Because you're convinced that your intelligence and perspective is superior?

I never said you didn't care.

Come on, Copernicus - here is what you said:

You have managed to find a way not to care whether or not you can think of a reason for all the suffering that exists in the world.

Please don't expect me to go back and repost your quotes when you back track on something you said and now wish to alter! That's so tedious!

You believe that it will be forthcoming--all will be revealed--at a later period in your existence.

Yes, well, sometimes "later" is fifteen minutes later. Sometimes it's fifteen years later. So what?

Atheists who, like you, come to accept circumstances that they can do nothing about, don't need to shake their fists. They have nobody to shake their fists at--except the drunk drivers and others that happen to bring them grief.

Oh, come on. You think I havent known plenty of angry, bitter atheists in my life? And most of them have shaken their fist at heaven more than once. Please get off your high horse and LISTEN to what I am saying.

 

[Kathryn]

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to hobble out of the house on my permanently disfigured foot and weakened leg and go to the grocery store.

Life either sucks because I'm going to walk with a limp probably for the rest of my life - or it's fabulous to be able to walk. Depends on our perspective, I guess.

 

[ninerbuff]

Is that all people want? What did you want when you started this thread?

Well people want sex and cell phones too, but back then having a horse was probably a luxury.
What did I want? I think the OP explains that: a logical explanation.

No.

We know we live, but we only believe we die.

Nobody knows if our awareness ends with the death of the physical body. The fear of death is actually the fear of the unknown.

Jesus Christ, the Buddha and the other spiritual masters tried to described that which we cannot perceive with our five physical senses and how we can develop the higher senses. This wisdom was lost in time creating misunderstanding about their message.

.
​

You're speaking in the non physical sense. If you're speaking in the physical sense, we do die. That's why bodies decompose.

 

[smokeybear]

Ninerbuff said:

"What did I want? I think the OP explains that: a logical explanation."

So you wanted more than just physical necessities and comfort. You wanted an explanation for something you did not understand.

There are many mysteries to life. Science has solved only a minutely small percentage of them. Yet we believe they can explain life. We make leaps in logic about that which is unknown and call it "knowledge."

Religion and spirituality attempt to explain these mysteries. It is up to each individual to discover for himself whether the explanations fill the mental void.

Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Mohammed and the other spiritual masters described how one can gain insight into the workings of his own nature. That insight enables one to see the inner workings of his own mind and in doing so understand his fellow man.

.
​